The Capital of the Comoros Islands is?

[ebeddoulos]

Mary,

Nice try. Actually that is a pitiful try. Somewhat akin to throwing a whole pot of spahhetti against the wall to see if anything sticks. Now which one of those strands actualy contains any evidence whatsoever, no matter how miniscule, that there was a town/village/settlement/municipality known by the name of Moroni?

Let me put this in perspective for you. My grandparents had a modest home in Duchesne, Utah - Gateway to the Uintah Basin. In the 2000 census, Duchesne had a rather smallish population of only 1,408. It was smaller in the 1960s. My mother was born and raised in Duchesne. My younger sister still lives there as do several of my cousins. I went to first grade in Duchesne Elementary. I graduated from Duchesne High School. Between those two events, I caught my first fish in the Duchesne River, kissed my first kiss beneath a Duchesne city light, and I learned to drive in the streets and back roads of Duchesne. I was called on my mission by a Duchesne Ward bishop. When I returned, I married a Duchesne gal. I lived in Duchesne in a day and age where you were fortunate to get one radio station during the day, sometimes 4 or 5 at night and mostly just two TV stations. Trust me when I tell you that back-fence gossip and story telling was the prime-time entertainment and it was raised to a high art form in Duchesne. Here is the kicker, the first time I ever heard of the Sundance Kid connection to Duchesne was when I read about it in the newspaper.

Now do you have any actual documented evidence that the Smiths ever heard the name Comoros Islands uttered? You are going to have to do better than the stench laden tripe you have offered up thus far. Or is your only contribution going to be nothing more than a baseless falsehood vainly attempting to masquerade as scuttlebutt, wishful thinking and self-deluded fantasy?

[selek]

Mary,

Nice try. Actually that is a pitiful try. Somewhat akin to throwing a whole pot of spahhetti against the wall to see if anything sticks. Now which one of those strands actualy contains any evidence whatsoever, no matter how miniscule, that there was a town/village/settlement/municipality known by the name of Moroni?

Now do you have any actual documented evidence that the Smiths ever heard the name Comoros Islands uttered? You are going to have to do better than the stench laden tripe you have offered up thus far. Or is your only contribution going to be nothing more than a baseless falsehood vainly attempting to masquerade as scuttlebutt, wishful thinking and self-deluded fantasy?

The problem, No Touch and ebed, is that Mary desperately WANTS to believe the Captain Kidd connection.

Look at her posts over the last couple of years.

The thirteenth Article of Faith states:

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paulâ??We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Mary, in her own mind, has rewritten this article of faith to state:

We believe any thing that will undermine the Church's official statements on how the Book of Mormon came about, we hope that one day a smoking gun will emerge to prove Joseph Smith a liar, a charlatan, and a fraud, we have endured many instances of our redherrings being annihilated by cold hard facts, and yet hope one day to be able to say "I told you so." If there is anything damning of Joseph Smith, besmirching of his reputation, or of questionable accuracy, shoddy methodology or generally dimishining of the Mormon Church, we seek after these things.

She wants to believe in the Captain Kidd Connection.

She wants it to be proven that Joseph Smith made the whole thing up.

She didn't come here to have her ridiculous allegations shot down- she came here to spread the fertilizer in the hopes that seeds of doubt would blossom.

[Abulafia]

Well, it's been an interesting few days.

Selek...one thing that I take exception to is your accusing me of trying to 'sow seeds of doubt'..

If it's that ridiculous a premise, then I would think that most will walk away having a good chuckle at my stupidity!!

Actually you mistake me for someone who 'doesn't' want Joseph Smith to be what he said he was.

As I have said in pm. I lost my faith many years ago, but didn't lose 'all' of my hope... (though I must admit it is becoming almost non-existent..)

But this thread wasn't supposed to be about me..

Okay, I'll chalk it up to a pretty good coincidence, and we can leave it at that...

I'm guessing that no-one has offered a refutation of Art's response to Matt Roper's piece?

Mary

[selek]

Well, it's been an interesting few days.

Selek...one thing that I take exception to is your accusing me of trying to 'sow seeds of doubt'..

That's not what I accused you of, Mary. I accused you of spreading b.s. in an attempt to fertilize seeds already planted.

If I'm to be damned, let be damned for what I've actually done.

If it's that ridiculous a premise, then I would think that most will walk away having a good chuckle at my stupidity!!

If I am stupid and clumsy in my attempt to pick your pocket, does that mean I'm not guilty of attempting to pick your pocket?

Poor execution does not exonerate you of the attempt.

Actually you mistake me for someone who 'doesn't' want Joseph Smith to be what he said he was.

As I have said in pm. I lost my faith many years ago, but didn't lose 'all' of my hope... (though I must admit it is becoming almost non-existent..)

And when you consider the biases, sloppy thinking, and sheer uncritical credulity you've demonstrated, it's really no wonder.

[wenglund]

-delete double post-

[wenglund]

But if Spalding/Rigdon wrote the book, then they pinched the names from the good Captain, no?

So, we should be looking for a Spalding/Rigdon/Kidd connection.

Where's Uncle Dale when we need him? Bernard

Speaking of which, John Miller, a house guest of Solomon Spalding, and one of several people who claimed to have read and heard told Spalding's manuscript, along with Abner Jackson, a Spalding neighbor who also claims to have heard Spalding's story, both recall, decades after the fact, hearing the name Moroni as well as Nephi and Lehi.

However, when one reads the extant Spalding manuscript, no such names appear. Imagine that!?!

But, here's a likely scenerio for those who believe the BoM to be a work of fiction (I believe otherwise):

For months at Joseph's humble farm in Harmony, PA, Smith and Rigdon and Cowdrey had been secretly and feverishly pilfering the Spalding manuscript while writing their religious novel. And, though they had easily been able to come up with hundreds if not thousands of names for people and places and things, yet as they neared the end of book, for some inexplicable reason they each experienced a mental block in figuring out a name for their final main character and the hill in which he would presumably bury his records.

Perhaps one of them came up with the brilliant idea to buy and read one of those dime novels about Captain Kidd and see if that might be of help.

So, perhaps they checked their pockets, pulled together the ten cents, went down to the local grocer and bought the book. After reading through a portion of the book and not being satisfied with the many names they came across, there on page ___ was the name of an island that must have jumped out at them. "Golly..." they might have exclaimed in unison, "why don't we name the hill here in NY after this tiny island in the Indian Ocean that Kidd once stiopped at." Rigdon could have then chimed in: "Yes...and look here at this gazetteer that I just happen to have with me. See this tiny spec of a city on that island. It may one day become the capital of this island. Wouldn't it be great if we use the name of that city as the name of our last main character?"

Cowdrey may have added: "Since it is such a great name, why don't we go back earlier in the manuscript and give the same name to one of our other key characters. Think of it this way...here we have a book about CAPTAIN Kidd, who stops on island that has a city with a name that sounds like MORONI. We could call that earlier character "Captain Moroni".

One can only imagine the possible glee they all must have felt.

Of course there are other conspiratorial things for them to have considered. So, Joseph may have cautioned: "I suppose we should change the spellings of both names a bit so that it will take hundreds of years for people to discover this amazing happenstance. But, at least we now have the last two names that have alluded us, and we can finish this book, start our church, and begin raking in the dough from sales and tithes...HURAHH."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[ebeddoulos]

Oh, great joy! Oh, marvelous rapture! Oh, blessings from on high! I've been looking for that dime novel for 15-20 years! I keep hearing about it (and the newspaper accounts, the diaries and journals, the maps and gazeteers) but no one seems to know the title or author or publisher or jack about it.

Where is Mark Hoffman when you need him?

[Abulafia]

Wade,

You said:

However, when one reads the extant Spalding manuscript, no such names appear. Imagine that!?!

That is a very misleading statement.

You know that there is debate on whether Manuscript Story is Manuscript Found...

And when you consider the biases, sloppy thinking, and sheer uncritical credulity you've demonstrated, it's really no wonder.

I really, really thought this thread wasn't about me.. why on earth do you continue to attack me personally...

Look, as someone with an average brain, and average intelligence, and average critical thinking skills, then I really, really don't think that it is stretching the imagination to suppose that Joseph heard of places such as Camora and Moroni through his father and his father's family who actually lived not far from Boston where Captain Kidd set sail for in order to clear his name. (these events in the 1700's would have still been fresh in the minds of locals) Tales of Captain Kidd would have included his travels and adventures abroad and at home (the US) even if those tales were embellished.

Whether Joseph used those names in the composition of the Book of Mormon is another thing altogether. I don't know, but it does seem like quite a good coincidence!

That's my take.

Mary

[Scott Lloyd]

Whether Joseph used those names in the composition of the Book of Mormon is another thing altogether. I don't know, but it does seem like quite a good coincidence!

That's my take.

No one denies it's a coincidence, which is "an accidental and remarkable occurrence of events or ideas at the same time, suggesting but lacking a causal relationship" (Webster's New World College Dictionary, emphasis added). What you seem to be determined to do through innuendo and strained reasoning is to make it into something else.

[wenglund]

Wade,

You said:

However, when one reads the extant Spalding manuscript, no such names appear. Imagine that!?!

That is a very misleading statement.

You know that there is debate on whether Manuscript Story is Manuscript Found...

My knowledge of the debate does not make my comments the least bit misleading. What I said about the "extant manuscript" is completely true, and cannot in any reasonable way be interpreted as denying the debate you mentioned. Yet, you managed to do just that--which I find fitting given your apparent inclinations on this thread to stretch the bound of credulity to the point of the absurd, and this inexplicably by way of dashing your own alleged "hopes" to the contrary.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Abulafia]

No one denies it's a coincidence, which is "an accidental and remarkable occurrence of events or ideas at the same time, suggesting but lacking a causal relationship" (Webster's New World College Dictionary, emphasis added). What you seem to be determined to do through innuendo and strained reasoning is to make it into something else.

Scott, give me a break. I only heard of the connection yesterday morning from my 10 year old son! I've already stated that had it only been one word, it wouldn't have caught my attention. It caught my attention, and I think would catch anyone's attention (far more intelligent than I) because of the names 'together'. Moroni is inextricably linked in Mormon thought with Cumorah, just as Moroni is linked with Camorah (as the Portuguese called it) or the Comoros Islands.

I didn't expect to be reading about Joseph Smith Sr, knowing about Captain Kidd, I didn't expect to be reading about Smith's ancestors hailing from a place just north of Boston, I didn't expect to be reading about ghostly apparitions guarding treasures, and the possible developments and differences in the stories of Moroni's, Ghost with throat cut, Nephi's, toad's, visits to Joseph in connection with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

I think there is a lot of connections there that do not require innuendo or strained reasoning to be honest.

And as someone has already stated on this thread, even MORE innuendo and strained reasoning is required to connect NHM to the Book of Mormon, but that doesn't stop the apologists, in the defence of their faith.

Besides this. It's interesting.

Mary

[Abulafia]

My knowledge of the debate does not make my comments the least bit misleading.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one Wade.

[selek]

Scott, give me a break. I only heard of the connection yesterday morning from my 10 year old son! I've already stated that had it only been one word, it wouldn't have caught my attention. It caught my attention, and I think would catch anyone's attention (far more intelligent than I) because of the names 'together'. Moroni is inextricably linked in Mormon thought with Cumorah, just as Moroni is linked with Camorah (as the Portuguese called it) or the Comoros Islands.

But there's no demonstrable, no solid, no reasoned evidence to suggest that there's any link between Moroni in Mormon thought and Moroni in the Comoros Islands!

That's the buffoonish lie that you're attempting to peddle.

I didn't expect to be reading about Joseph Smith Sr, knowing about Captain Kidd, I didn't expect to be reading about Smith's ancestors hailing from a place just north of Boston, I didn't expect to be reading about ghostly apparitions guarding treasures, and the possible developments and differences in the stories of Moroni's, Ghost with throat cut, Nephi's, toad's, visits to Joseph in connection with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

Bull pockey you didn't expect it. You went looking for it.

You claim to want to believe, but you went looking for reasons not to, and then ignored the rational evidence in favor of liars, frauds, and snake-oil salesmen who couldn't get the basic facts right.

You rejected solid evidence in favor of falsehood innuendo, and "Elvis-is-alive-and-living-Salisbury" level rumor!

Programmers have a saying, Garbage In/ Garbage out. If you start out with false logic and bad data, you end up with bad results- and you went looking for garbage.

I think there is a lot of connections there that do not require innuendo or strained reasoning to be honest.

Only if you are willing to omit basic facts, ignore historical truths, and swallow unquestioningly whatever dishonest men shovel at you.

And as someone has already stated on this thread, even MORE innuendo and strained reasoning is required to connect NHM to the Book of Mormon, but that doesn't stop the apologists, in the defence of their faith.

Bull pockey. NHM is linguistically correct, dates to the correct era, and is along the most probable path taken.

Unlike your Captain Kidd theorem, NHM does not require on fanciful theories about an illiterate farm boy stumbling over a dimestore novel published thirty years too late, it does not lean upon "learned" and erroneous conjecture from avowed anti-Mormons, and it doesn't rely on testimonials bought and sold fifty years after the events in question.

Unlike your Captain Kidd theorem, NHM does not rely on National Inquirer "Big-Foot-Is-Alive-And-Fathered-My-Baby" level reporting.

You're reading third-hand tabloid trash and clinging desperately to it because it supports your preconceptions.

So long as you continue to reject sound reasoning, you're never going to amount to more than a closet apostate groping for an exit hatch.

You have your reed. You have your reason to doubt and sound reasoning will not deter you from it.

None is so blind as she who will not see.

[changed]

Here is a copy of the manuscript for anyone who wants to read it.

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/rlds1885.htm#pg011b

Looks like the RLDS church has it.

From intro:

"This Manuscript does not purport to be "a story of the Indians formerly occupying this continent;" but is a history of the wars between the Indians of Ohio and Kentucky, and their progress in civilization, &c. It is certain that this Manuscript is not the origin of the Mormon Bible, whatever some other manuscripts may have been. The only similarity between them, is, in the manner in which each purports to have been found -- one in a cave on Conneaut Creek -- the other in a hill in Ontario county, New York. There is no identity of names, of persons, or places; and there is no similarity of style between them."

[Abulafia]

Selek..

I really don't know how to respond to your post, because you keep attacking me personally. (non-mormon husband just read it and hasn't formed a very good opinion of you ie he feels your tone is ill-mannered, mean spirited, ignorant and blinkered)

I'll bow out of this conversation and try and get through Bryan Ready's Masters Thesis on William Whitsitt.

Regards

Mary

[Scott Lloyd]

Scott, give me a break. I only heard of the connection yesterday morning from my 10 year old son! I've already stated that had it only been one word, it wouldn't have caught my attention. It caught my attention, and I think would catch anyone's attention (far more intelligent than I) because of the names 'together'.

Of course it would catch someone's attention: It's in the nature of a coincidence to do that. It wouldn't be a coincidence if it weren't remarkable. The problem occurs when someone assumes it is something other than coincidence after a ridiculously strained effort to draw a causal connection that simply doesn't measure up to common sense.

I didn't expect to be reading about Joseph Smith Sr, knowing about Captain Kidd, I didn't expect to be reading about Smith's ancestors hailing from a place just north of Boston, I didn't expect to be reading about ghostly apparitions guarding treasures, and the possible developments and differences in the stories of Moroni's, Ghost with throat cut, Nephi's, toad's, visits to Joseph in connection with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

And you wouldn't have been reading about them if some person or persons hadn't been so desperate to disprove the Book of Mormon that they created a thin fabric out of extremely tenuous fibers.

[Eguzkitanedan]

Moroni is inextricably linked in Mormon thought with Cumorah, just as Moroni is linked with Camorah (as the Portuguese called it) or the Comoros Islands.

Nope.

[Abulafia]

Close-up of 1808 map of Africa with the small Comoros islands labelled "Camora" (near center, just below marked line of latitude)

Some scholars have theorized that Smith created the name "Cumorah" through his study of the treasure-hunting stories of Captain William Kidd.[21] Because Kidd was said to have buried treasure in the Comoros islands, it has been suggested that Smith used the name of the islands and applied it to the hill where he found buried treasureâ??the golden plates.[22] Complementing this proposal is the theory that Smith borrowed the name of a settlement in the Comorosâ??Moroniâ??and applied it to the angel which led him to the golden plates.

Latter-day Saint apologists have argued that this line of argument commits the logical error of appeal to probability; they also point out that it is unlikely that Smith had access to material which would have referred to the then-small settlement of Moroni.[23]

[edit] Mainstream academic view

There is no mainstream academic support for the LDS claim for the existence of places such as Cumorah. The same can be said regarding the historicity of the Book of Mormon.[24]

see: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comores

[selek]

see: http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comores

To misquote Harry Carry, "Holy Cow! Another Elvis/BigFoot's Baby sighting!"

[Abulafia]

To misquote Harry Carry, "Holy Cow! Another Elvis/BigFoot's Baby sighting!"

Be nice....Selek...

Also here..

Defenders of the Book of Mormon claim that this is only a coincidence, and that 'Comoros' in fact has very little correspondence with 'Cumorah'. The fact of the matter is that prior to the French occupation of the late 1860's, Comoros was known by its Arabic name, Camora (sometimes also spelled Comora). It is thus more than a little suspicious to note that the 1830 Book of Mormon uniformly spells 'Cumorah' as 'Camorah'. See, for example, the original text of Mormon 6:2:

And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Camorah, by the hill which was called Camorah, and there we would give them battle.

http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/changes.shtml

Maybe an anti-mormon site but he uses an 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon and the same early map referenced on wikipedia..

[Eguzkitanedan]

Be nice....Selek...

Also here..

http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bom1830/changes.shtml

Maybe an anti-mormon site but he uses an 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon and the same early map referenced on wikipedia..

Arabic doesn't have an "O".

[LifeOnaPlate]

Arabic isn't written in English.

Good grief, Abu.

[Abulafia]

Hi LOAP,

I know, I should have bowed out of this thread, but I couldn't resist.

So.....why does the 1808 map list the island as Camora... Is there a reasonable explanation for this?

and note...I included the apologetic defence in the wiki link...

Okay...this....

Comorian (or Shikomoro, a blend of Swahili and Arabic) is also spoken

Might be the explanation... http://www.answers.com/topic/comoros

Mary

[thesometimesaint]

Abulafia:

Any number of people can play the game of if I take away some letters here, and then add some letters there. I can make a tenuous connection to any word I want.

[wenglund]

Without intending to "pile on", the thing that strikes me as most odd about this relative non-issue (besides it being made an issue by certain parties), is that if my primary intent in life is to reach the tops of the spiritual mountain, where there is a fulness of joy and love and Christ-like character; and were I to wisely seek the best vehicle for achieving that objective; I would think that it would make most sense to test the various proposed vehicles by taking them for a spin and seeing if, comparitively speaking, they may best take me up the mountain in the direction towards the top or not, rather than meandering down a trail of speculating wildly about where a couple of names in the owners manual may have originated. But, that may just be me.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-