The Capital of the Comoros Islands is?

[why me]

W. R. Hines Statement - born in Colesville in 1803, and had some contact because both Joseph and his father were digging salt for two summers near his home.

(referring to Joseph)

QUOTE

'He had a very clear stone about the size and shape of a ducks egg, and claimed that he could see lost or hidden things through it. He said he saw Captain Kidd sailing on the Susquehanna River during a freshet, and that he buried two pots of gold and silver. He claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it, and he translated it through the peep-stone'.

Also

Mr Bell's statement - born in 1803 Broom Cty New York

His brother told him

QUOTE

'he knew Jo Smith when he was digging near the Susquehanna River for Captain Kidd's Money'

Mary

And here are the uncle daleisms. You see mary, at the time that this quotation was made, many people had a dog in the fight. I would not trust these sources. Also, we need to remember that such stories were probably around at the time of JS. And he must have fielded questions. But really the quotations that you gave seem to be made at that time to make JS look bad. They are certainly not complimentary. Now how can we prove that these quotations were based on fact? We can't. We just need to take their word for it. And that is the problem. We need to take their word that 'Jo Smith' was actually doing what they said he did.

But what facts do we have? We have 11 witnesses who never denied what they saw and agreed to have their name put to a document to be included in the book of mormon. Now that is a fact. And so ol' Joe saw capt kidd sailing on the river with his stones...as the good captain buried his treasure...Yep sounds good....

[USU78]

Did Kidd bury gold along the Susquehanna River. Probably not.. That's not important. Joseph seemed to have thought that he did, based on the legends that were circulating at the time.

I quite agree that the "digging for pirate treasure" craziness, which was still alive when I was a kid, was inspired by legends of Blackbeard and Kidd.

Do you acknowledge that legends of Blackbeard and Kidd are not the same thing as awareness of things such as specifics such as activities of a particular pirate at a particular time in a particular ocean as far away from the American Frontier as they could possibly be?

[lostindc]

If Mary and Dale would just acknowledge anything stated by Zakuska in this thread then we can lay this to rest. Zakuska has pretty much hammered this myth into a million pieces.

As for treasure hunting, I did that as a kid and I would love to do it now, such as diving in the Triangle looking for wreckage with lost loot.

lost "wants to be a pirate and have his own ship and find lots of money and never work again" indc

[Zakuska]

Do the maps you have listed show Isle Ste Marie off the Madagascar coast where Kidd appears to have scuttled one of his ships? If you can't, does that mean that he infact didn't actually scuttle his ship there?

As a matter of fact they do.

I would think that privateers and pirates knew the islands quite well. All of them. Iconi was the original capital of Grand Comoro, under the rule of the Arabs, however, all you need to do is check out google earth. Check Moroni, check Iconi, and see which one had the natural port. If I were a sailor, I would think Moroni would have been a safer bet to dock my boat rather than Iconi. And there are contemporary sources, that pirates from a number of areas did just that. Iconi is a stones through (well almost) from Moroni anyway.

Here's a good link to that 1808 map, listing Camora.

http://www.kenyalogy.com/eng/mapake/af1808.html

Still doesn't prove anything of course.

Mary

I noticed that the map lists both places he did visit. Johanno and Mehilla.

Still no maps showing Muruni. I wonder just how old the port at Muruni is? It doesn't seem to be known by the Shipping trade back then. I think I'm going to email the city officials for some answers.

[Zakuska]

I just found this article Mary... it seems you are on a treasure hunt without a map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Co...e_note-ezrfoq-3

It is thought that the Comoros islands were first visited by Phoenician sailors[1][2]. The earliest inhabitants of the islands may have been 5th or 6th Century Melanesian or Polynesian sailors[3]; a 6th Century settlement on Nzwani was found by archaeologists[4]. Traces of this original Asian culture have blended with successive waves of African, Arab and Shirazi immigrants. Bantu peoples apparently moved to Comoros before the 14th Century, principally from the coast of what is now southern Mozambique; on the island of Nzwani (French Anjouan) they found earlier Malayo-Indonesian inhabitants[4]. However, locals agree that the islands were first peopled by storm-tossed Arab voyagers.[5]

Notice which Island has the 6th century archeological site. No wonders Kidd went to Johanne first! That has the oldest settlements.

Just how old is Moroni anyways!?

According to this its on the youngest of the islands...

The islands: Njazidja (Grande Comore), Mwali (Moheli), Nzwani (Anjouan), and Maore (Mayotte) with their French names in parentheses, have distinct topographical characteristics due to their different ages. Maore, the oldest of the islands, is highly eroded with slow, meandering streams. Ngazidja, the youngest of the islands, is dominated by a massive, active volcano, that erupted as recently as 2005. Volcanic experts are concerned that a very violent eruption may occur in the near future. The other two islands are mountainous but have no active volcanic activity. The capital, Moroni, is on the western edge of Njazidja.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Comoros

[thesometimesaint]

Probably been there since it was first settled. In 1830 it was nothing more that a few huts.

[Zakuska]

Probably been there since it was first settled. In 1830 it was nothing more that a few huts.

The french didn't settle the islands until 1846.

[thesometimesaint]

True enough. I'm just going under the assumption that others were there before the French. Much like the English settled New England, but the Indians were there long before that.

[Zakuska]

True enough. I'm just going under the assumption that others were there before the French. Much like the English settled New England, but the Indians were there long before that.

Yep... we gotta civilize those natives and give them some clothes!

[thesometimesaint]

Zakuska:

Sometime I wonder how "civilized" even we have become.

[Zakuska]

Here is some good primary source material...

Pre-colonial inhabitation

The first human inhabitants of the Comoro Islands are thought to have been Polynesian and Melanesian settlers, Malays and Indonesians (Austronesians), travelling by boat. They settled there no later than the sixth century AD, the date of the earliest known archaeological site, found on Nzwani, though some sources speculate that settlement began as early as the first century.[8] The islands of Comoros became populated by a succession of diverse groups from the coast of Africa, the Persian Gulf, Indonesia, and Madagascar. Swahili settlers first reached the islands as a part of the greater Bantu expansion that took place in Africa throughout the first millennium.

Development of the Comoros is periodized into phases, beginning with Swahili influence and settlement in the Dembini phase (ninth to tenth centuries), during which each island maintained a single, central village.[9] From the eleventh to the fifteenth centuries, trade with the island of Madagascar and merchants from the Middle East flourished, smaller villages emerged, and existing towns expanded. The citizens and historians of the Comoros state that early Arab settlements dated even before their known arrival to the archipelago, and Swahili historians frequently trace genealogies back Arab ancestors who had set travel from Yemen and the ancient kingdom of Saba' in Eden ( thought to be the biblical Eden). Middle Eastern merchants first introduced Islam to the islands. As the religion gained in popularity, large mosques were constructed. The Comoro Islands, like other coastal areas in the region, were important stops in early Islamic trade routes frequented by Persians and Arabs. Despite its distance from the coast, Comoros is situated along the major sea route between Kilwa and Mozambique, an outlet for Zimbabwean gold.[10]

By the nineteenth century, the influence of Sunni Arabic-speaking Persians from Shiraz, Iran, dominated the islands. The Shirazi traded along the coasts of East Africa, the Middle East, and India, and established colonies in the archipelago. Arab influence increased with the ascendancy of Zanzibar under Arab Omani rule, and Comorian culture, especially architecture and religion, increasingly reflected Arabic influence. Many rival sultanates were established in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.[11]

By the time Europeans showed interest in the Comoros, the dominant Arab cultural veneer of the islands led many to remind of the society's Arab foundations at the expense of its Swahili and African heritage. More recent western scholarship by Thomas Spear and Randall Pouwells emphasizes African historical predominance over the diffusionist perspective.[12]

What are the chances that Moroni was the "Single Central village" on Ngazidja (French: Grande Comore), during the 10th century?

According to this it seems the island wasnt even settled until the 16th century...

In the course of the 16th century several Sultanates were established on the

island of Grande Comore.

Most of them were united in a very lose confederation, covering the largest

part of the island, but real unity was only achieved after the establishment

in 1886, of a French protectorate and the abolition, in 1892, of the last

local Sultanates. (1)

http://www.geocities.com/capitolHill/Rotun...Comore.html#Sul

1500 - 1600

Kidd was on Johanno in 1696, So it is possible... If Moroni was even a village at the time.

[thesometimesaint]

Zakuska:

Possible, but nothing in the article states it.

[Zakuska]

Iconi

Iconi, the oldest settlement on Grande Comore, was the original capital of the island and the seat of the Sultan of Bambao. Between the 16th and 19th centuries, Iconi was damaged by wave after wave of Malagasy pirates, and in 1978, was the site of the tragic massacre of the Muslim faithful by Ali Soilih's gangs of youthful thugs. Still, many fine old buildings remain and it's worth a couple of hours of exploration. It lies just three miles (five km) south of Moroni and can be reached on foot, by share taxi (CF200), or taxi-brousse.

So Moroni is a newer settlement.

Here are the Sultans of Bambao:

Bambao

Sultans (also styled mfalme [plural wafalme])

.... - .... Ngoma Mrahafu

.... - .... Mwasi Pirusa

.... - .... Fum Mbavu Inkwaba

.... - .... Mwenye Mji wa Mwenye Mambo

.... - .... Inye wa Mantsi

.... - .... Mwenye Mji wa Mwanze

.... - .... Tambavu mna Muhame wa Saidi

.... - .... Tambavu Inkwaba

.... - .... Fum Nau wa Kori Dozi (tibe i)

.... - .... Mwenye Mji wa Mvunza Panga

.... - .... Mla Nau (tibe ii)

.... - .... Fozi Wa

.... - .... Suja Oma Inkwaba

.... - .... Nyau wa Faume (f)

.... - .... Bamba Oma wa Ju Mamba (1st time)

.... - .... Ahmed bin Shekhe Ngome (1st time) (b. c.1793 - d. 1875)

(tibe iv)

.... - .... Bamba Oma wa Ju Mamba (2nd time)

.... - .... Ahmed bin Shekhe Ngome (2nd time) (s.a.)

.... - .... Saidi Bakari

.... - .... Ahmed bin Shekhe Ngome (3rd time) (s.a.)

.... - .... Mwenye Mambo

.... - .... Ju Mamba

.... - .... Mohamed bin Ahmed (1st time)

18.. - 18.. Ahmed bin Shekhe Ngome (4th time) (s.a.)

(tibe x)

18.. - 18.. Abdallah bin Saidi Hamza (1st time)

1874? Mohamed bin Ahmed (2nd time)

18.. - 18.. Mwenye Mji (1st time)

18.. - 18.. Abdallah bin Saidi Hamza (2nd time)

18.. - 18.. Saidi Bakari bin Ahmed (1st time)

18.. - 18.. Mwenye Mji (2nd time)

18.. - 18.. Abdallah bin Saidi Hamza (3rd time)

18.. - 18.. Saidi Bakari bin Ahmed (2nd time)

18.. - 1886 Saidi Ali bin Saidi Omar (tibe xv) (b. c.1856 - d. 1915)

http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Comoros.html#Bambao

I submit Iconi was the ""Single Central village" on Grande Comore when Kidd visited Johanne.

[Abulafia]

As a matter of fact they do.

I noticed that the map lists both places he did visit. Johanno and Mehilla.

Still no maps showing Muruni. I wonder just how old the port at Muruni is? It doesn't seem to be known by the Shipping trade back then. I think I'm going to email the city officials for some answers.

The plot thickens huh!!

Okay...

The following map shows the Comoros Islands as Comore, Mayotte, Moeti, Johanna - A General Chart: Exhibiting the discoveries made by Capt James Cook 1785 (held at the NMM in the UK) It also shows a sandbank off Comoro which now appears on google earth as being underwater.

http://www.nmm.ac.uk

The Following in a book called

PRIVATEERING AND PIRACY

IN THE

COLONIAL PERIOD: ILLUSTRATIVE DOCUMENTS

EDITED UNDER THE AUSPICES OF

THE NATIONAL SOCIETY OF THE

COLONIAL DAMES OF AMERICA

BY

JOHN FRANKLIN JAMESON

DIRECTOR OF THE DEPARTMENT OF HISTORICAL RESEARCH IN

THE CARNEGIE INSTITUTION OF WASHINGTON

The Examination of John Dann of Rochester, Mariner, taken the 3d of August 1696.

......They went thence to a place called Paddy,[12] and soe back to Johanna, touching167 at Comora by the way, where they tooke in provisions. at Johanna they tooke a Junke laden with Rice, which they stood in need of; here they tooke in 13 French men that had been privateering in those Seas under English Colours and had lost their ship at Molila, where it was cast away.

The author explains...

Comoro is the principal island in the group of which Johanna is one. Molila, below, is most likely Mohelli, another of the group.

This appears to indicate that all Islands were known to navigators (and American at that) at least as early as 1696. It also indicates that Comoro was regarded as the principal island. It certainly (with the Volcano) is the highest and the largest. So I don't know why you would think that this island would somehow be magically invisible to pirates, privateers and seamen alike.

Lucy Mack Smith's history has also brought up the interesting issue of just how much Joseph and his near kin (including father and uncles on both sides of the family) can be regarded as backwater hicks.

My husband, as before stated, followed merchandising for a short period in the town of Randolph. Soon after he commenced business in this place, he ascertained that crystalized gensang root sold very high in China, being used as remedy for the plague, which was then raging there.

He therefore concluded to embark in a traffic of this article, and consequently made an investment of all the means which he commanded, in that way and manner which was necessary to carry on a business of this kind, viz., crystalizing and exporting the root. When he had obtained a quantity of the same, a merchant by the name of Stevens, of Royalton, offered him three thousand dollars for what he had; but my husband refused his offer, as it was only about two-thirds of its real value, and told the gentleman that he would rather venture shipping it himself.

My husband, in a short time, went to the city of New York, with the view of shipping his gensang, and finding a vessel in port which was soon to set sail, he made arrangements with the captain to this effectâ?? that he was to sell the gensang in China, and return the avails thereof to my husband; and this the captain bound himself to do, in a written obligation.

.....

At the time he sent his venture to China he was owing eighteen hundred dollars in the city of Boston, for store goods, and he expected to discharge the debt at the return of the China expedition; but, having invested almost all his means in gensang, the loss which he suffered in this article rendered it impossible for him to pay his debt with the property which remained in his hands. The principal dependence left him, in the shape of property, was the farm at Tunbridge, upon which we were then living, having moved back to this place immediately after his venture was sent to China.

From:

Lucy's Book

A Critical Edition of Lucy Mack Smith's Family Memoir

Edited by

Lavina Fielding Anderson

[Zakuska]

This appears to indicate that all Islands were known to navigators (and American at that) at least as early as 1696. It also indicates that Comoro was regarded as the principal island. It certainly (with the Volcano) is the highest and the largest. So I don't know why you would think that this island would somehow be magically invisible to pirates, privateers and seamen alike.

Where did you gleen this insite from?

All I said is there doesn't seem to have been a marked port on the Island at the time. (As evidenced by the maps) Earlier you seemed to have made a great deal about there being a seaport in Moroni. As I have shown Iconi was the sultane seat of the Island at the time Kidd visited.

What we need to find out is when Moroni became a town. I suspect that it wasnt until quite recently. I base this on their making a big deal about the "Moon" in their choice of flags etc.

[Abulafia]

Where did you gleen this insite from?

All I said is there doesn't seem to have been a marked port on the Island at the time. (As evidenced by the maps) Earlier you seemed to have made a great deal about there being a seaport in Moroni. As I have shown Iconi was the sultane seat of the Island at the time Kidd visited.

What we need to find out is when Moroni became a town. I suspect that it wasnt until quite recently. I base this on their making a big deal about the "Moon" in their choice of flags etc.

Have you checked google earth yet? The mosque at Moroni has been there for a long time ...and yes...it's right on the port..

http://www.twip.org/image-africa-comoros-m...-6272-1531.html

Moroni prospered before the 16th century as a port of call for Arab merchants.

http://au.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560878/Moroni.html

Mary

[Zakuska]

Have you checked google earth yet? The mosque at Moroni has been there for a long time ...and yes...it's right on the port..

http://www.twip.org/image-africa-comoros-m...-6272-1531.html

http://au.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761560878/Moroni.html

Mary

Got any Arabian Maritime Maps to back the assertian up? The English French and Portugues sure don't mark there being any Ports on Grande Comore in the 1600s.

Like I said it boils down to what the village was called when Kidd was there. When Did Moroni incorporate as a town?

PS. The "Mosque" you are referencing has a Light house tower on it. The particular light house was constructed in 1912. Thats a little too late to have Guided captian Kidd and crew there.

The Mosque was apparently built in 1427... the Light house completed in 1912.

http://books.google.com/books?id=m2eLhe7Cp...4&ct=result

We still don't know when this village was incorprated as a city named Moroni. When did it get its name?

PSS. Hmmm.... According to this... the Mosque next to the port is the NEW Friday Mosque.

http://comoros.mvmtravel.com/tours/search_...20de%20Vendredi

Now Im confused.

OK heres the new mosque...

http://www.comores-online.com/mwezinet/sites/nouvmosq.htm

So the other one is the 1427 one.

[Abulafia]

Okay, the more I am learning about Joseph's family, the more interesting it becomes..(no proof of course, but certainly explains Joseph's (and his father's) interest in the Kidd legends.

The Mack's were from Lyme, which was a place renouned for ships and ship building

Among colonial towns, Lyme, located at the mouth of the Connecticut River, had the highest per capita income. It was a great ship building and shipping center, much involved in the West Indies trade. It was strongly influenced by the "New Light" preaching of George Whitefield, and those first Marlow families to venture into this wilderness held unorthodox religious views.

http://www.squidoo.com/marlowhistorynh

Yo-ho-ho and a Bottle of Rum

Privateers were a special brand of pirate supported by the government who had permission to "pirate" ships. They were given papers to verify their identity as official privateers. These letters protected them from punishment in the event of capture by their own government, but they were walking on the wild side. (It seems that Captain Kidd, a British privateer, learned that the hard way.)

When a sailor was to go to sea on a privateering vessel, he could apply to the government for a "Letter of Marque," a document which served as a protection against being prosecuted by his own government as a pirate, should his ship be captured in questionable circumstances. A lot could change politically between launch and return to home port. Also, many privateers and West Indies traders flew false flags and carried sets of false papers, so it was easy to make a serious mistake. A Letter of Marque was, in fact, a kind of hunting license since traditionally all aboard a privateering vessel would receive some predetermined portion of the booty of any enemy or pirate vessel captured and brought in.

We know from his own narrative that Solomon Mack (See below.) our first Marlow citizen, and two of his sons served aboard a privateering vessel. Solomon Mack describes himself at one point in his narrative as a "privateer," and other Marlow men may have been engaged in that dangerous game. Privateers operated during the French and Indian Wars, the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812 against enemy ships and in-between against "real" pirates who preyed largely on West Indies traders. It seems to be a distinction without a difference.

No wonder molasses is such a common ingredient in New England recipes and soldiers during the French and Indian Wars and Revolutionary War were regularly issued rum! Plenty of rum was available for trade with the Indians, leading to problems which still haunt us today. And somehow, even in the eighteenth century frontier outpost of Marlow, on a special occasion such as the killing of a bear, "spirits" were produced as if by magic, and it wasn't always hemlock bark beer. The accounts of Marlow's first storekeeper, Nichodemus Miller (See above.) show a prodigious amount of rum sold in the 1760's and 1770's. Consider what it means that common ingredients in New England baking are cinnamon, nutmeg, ginger, and molasses! Let's explore this connection between Marlow and the coastal trade.

I'm interested in the suggestion that it was through Stephen Mack, that Joseph Smith Sr first met Lucy Mack (Smith), it was also Stephen who gave them $1000 on their marriage, and from Lucy's history, it was Stephen that went to see the dealer that had defrauded Joseph of the money which resulted from selling the ginseng in China.

If Joseph Smith Sr, knew Stephen Mack well, then this may be the reason why both Joseph Sr and his son Joseph Jnr, were so interested in the early years in digging for Kidd's treasure.

All fascinating stuff.

Mary

[lostindc]

Okay, the more I am learning about Joseph's family, the more interesting it becomes..(no proof of course, but certainly explains Joseph's (and his father's) interest in the Kidd legends.

The Mack's were from Lyme, which was a place renouned for ships and ship building

http://www.squidoo.com/marlowhistorynh

I'm interested in the suggestion that it was through Stephen Mack, that Joseph Smith Sr first met Lucy Mack (Smith), it was also Stephen who gave them $1000 on their marriage, and from Lucy's history, it was Stephen that went to see the dealer that had defrauded Joseph of the money which resulted from selling the ginseng in China.

If Joseph Smith Sr, knew Stephen Mack well, then this may be the reason why both Joseph Sr and his son Joseph Jnr, were so interested in the early years in digging for Kidd's treasure.

All fascinating stuff.

Mary

Really Mary? This is what you are basing some of your 'stuff' on??? Did you finish the story of how the ginseng root business worked out for the Smith's? Did you locate the history of Stephen Mack and what he was doing during the time the Church was beginning? Do you really think that it is odd that a person living close to the coastline and other navigable bodies of water in the 1800's would be interested in ships? That would be like stating that it is odd for a 16 year old, today, would be interested in cars. At this point you are grasping at straws. Next thing you will be linking Joseph to the Illumanati and Obama to the Black Panthers.

[USU78]

Okay, the more I am learning about Joseph's family, the more interesting it becomes..(no proof of course, but certainly explains Joseph's (and his father's) interest in the Kidd legends.

The Mack's were from Lyme, which was a place renouned for ships and ship building

http://www.squidoo.com/marlowhistorynh

We know from his own narrative that Solomon Mack (See below.) our first Marlow citizen, and two of his sons served aboard a privateering vessel. Solomon Mack describes himself at one point in his narrative as a "privateer," and other Marlow men may have been engaged in that dangerous game. Privateers operated during the French and Indian Wars, the Revolutionary War, and the War of 1812 against enemy ships and in-between against "real" pirates who preyed largely on West Indies traders. It seems to be a distinction without a difference.

I'm interested here in what appears to transitive logic: If my grandfather and great-great grandfather are involved in part of the "Triangle Trade," New England's shame, "Molasses to Rum to Slaves," in the XVIIIth Century, which trade was wholly and solely involved in the West Indies, Africa, and New England (with the occasional trip to Mother England), just how does that make them aware of the specifics of Kidd's activities in an island group on the other side of Africa, which knowledge they somehow transmitted to JSJr and/or SR?

JSJr knew about Comoros/Muruni because JSSr and Solomon Mack knew about it because JSSr once chartered a ship to China and Solomon Mack was involved in the Triangle Trade and some people involved in the Triangle Trade and the Chinia Trade must have known about Comoros/Muruni and Kidd's exploits in the neighborhood.

Again, I wonder if it's possible to take this out of the Transitive into the Probable?

[Abulafia]

DAh, I dunno..USU, but, having just read Solomon Mack's biography (courtesy again of Uncle Dale) http://olivercowdery.com/texts/1811Mack.htm#title

it does seem that at one time (later converted to christianity) he was quite a character, always searching for a quick buck.

I think I have established that both Joseph's grandfather, Solomon Mack, and his two uncles Stephen and Jason had served as privateers, sailing as far as Liverpool. Indeed Solomon appears to have actually been a ship owner at one point. I havn't found any evidence that they themselves went round to Madagascar or that area, or that they were involved in the Slave Trade.

Joseph's father was well acquainted with Stephen Mack, and at some point got involved in that horrendous ginseng business that pretty much lost him a fortune (innocently I might add, or so the record seems to indicate). Stephen's wife apparantly went with the early Mormons to Utah, after he had left to set up business in Detroit, so the family were close.

Of course it doesn't prove that Joseph knew of Comoros or of Moroni, but it does indicate that his family links to sea-faring, and indeed to privateering, went deep. So I would say it is not as unlikely as the apologists would like to indicate, that he had at least heard of the Comoros Islands and Moroni.

Besides all this, Joseph's family are incredibly interesting people.

Mary

[Zakuska]

I'm interested here in what appears to transitive logic: If my grandfather and great-great grandfather are involved in part of the "Triangle Trade," New England's shame, "Molasses to Rum to Slaves," in the XVIIIth Century, which trade was wholly and solely involved in the West Indies, Africa, and New England (with the occasional trip to Mother England), just how does that make them aware of the specifics of Kidd's activities in an island group on the other side of Africa, which knowledge they somehow transmitted to JSJr and/or SR?

JSJr knew about Comoros/Muruni because JSSr and Solomon Mack knew about it because JSSr once chartered a ship to China and Solomon Mack was involved in the Triangle Trade and some people involved in the Triangle Trade and the Chinia Trade must have known about Comoros/Muruni and Kidd's exploits in the neighborhood.

Again, I wonder if it's possible to take this out of the Transitive into the Probable?

Those Sailers tell tales USU. Just ask captian Jack.

[ed2276]

Actually I'm not trying to score rhetorical points at all, just a entertaining statement of agreement. I do however agree that the Moroni, Comoros connection is just coincidence. However a coincidence in magnitude much greater than that of something like NHM.

Phaedrus

Right, Comoros/Moroni would be a coincidence much greater in magnitude than that of NHM, because NHM is not a coincidence at all.

[Zakuska]

I flew to Portugal... lived in Lisboa for about 15 months. Yet I never knew there was a city just on the other side of the bay named "Biaxo de Banhara" (Bottom of the Bathtube) I could have hopped on a ferry and visited it any time I wanted to, just like Mary thinks Captian Kidd did. I could see this city just by looking across the bay. It was very "Possible" for me to have done that yet I never did.

[Abulafia]

I flew to Portugal... lived in Lisboa for about 15 months. Yet I never knew there was a city just on the other side of the bay named "Biaxo de Banhara" (Bottom of the Bathtube) I could have hopped on a ferry and visited it any time I wanted to, just like Mary thinks Captian Kidd did. I could see this city just by looking across the bay. It was very "Possible" for me to have done that yet I never did.

I think you are comparing 'apples to oranges' here Zakuska. Having checked the Martime records that I could view online, the Captains kept detailed logs of where they had gone and plotted the charts as appropriate. I have a feeling that I read somewhere that Captain Kidd destroyed a lot of his logs (unthinkable at the time) which added suspision to his activities. But aside from this, they were whily men who knew where they could and couldn't go, and being a privateer was cloak and dagger stuff. They wouldn't have wanted to make their movements obvious. I don't doubt that Captain Kidd knew of Moroni in the context of what kind of reception the privateers would meet at the different ports, and what competition they were likely to have from the locals and from other privateers, also in terms of what kind of provisions they could pick up there. It would have been his business to know the area well.

It 'still' doesn't prove anything.

Apparantly one of the earliest books on piracy was that written by Charles Johnson (possibly Daniel Defoe) in the early 1700's. He included Kidd, and many other writers based their information on his work. I would hazard a guess that Johnson 'didn't' mention Moroni.

Still, neither you or I 'know' what information Joseph had available to him through his grandfather and uncles, through rumour and passed on knowledge, and we don't know what maps he might have looked at that were possibly in his grandfather's possession (Solomon).

One website argues that Moroni was on maps from the earliest period (1600's), I wonder where he got his evidence from?

Mary