President Packer At A Slc Ward Fast And Testimony Mtg?

[Doctor Steuss]

I also predict that LDS will ignore any issues surrounding the fact that many LDS are apparently unable to use the spirit to verify whether or not those are the actual words of a prophet.

The spirit tells me that it's a .pdf file. Beyond that... static.

[cinepro]

First you argued that anyone could have assumed what Joseph Smith prophesied based on the conditions of that day and age, and now you're implying that he had enough ample time for his prophecy to come true? Which is it? Too much time, or the conditions were ripe enough that anyone could have guessed right?

That's about right. The prophecy was made during Nullification Crisis of 1832 where war with South Carolina seemed imminent. Then it cooled down, and the Church (and Joseph Smith) downplayed the prophecy for the next couple of decades. Then it was dusted off and canonized after the Civil War, even though most of the conditions of the prophecy weren't actually fulfilled (as discussed in the other threads on the topic, and my blog here).

Here's a good summary:

When the revelation was given on 25 December 1832 at or near Kirtland, it clearly referred to the immediate political uncertainties provoked by the 1832 American Nullification Crisis. The 1832 Tariff Act, which favored Northern industrial interests at the expense of Southern agricultural concerns, because of the harm it wrought on foreign, primarily British, trade, had been declared null and void by the South Carolina legislature. President Andrew Jackson had responded by calling upon federal troops to suppress rebellion in the state. In the midst of this crisis, Joseph Smith received the Prophecy on War. In the preface to the revelation in the History of the Church, he explicitly established the Nullification Crisis as the background for the revelation (HC 1:301). In the revelation, he describes "wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning with the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place" (vv. 1-2, emphasis added). Thus, he seems to state that the Nullification Crisis will result in world war. This becomes explicit in the next verse, which originally read thus: "For behold, the Southern States will call upon other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations, and thus war shall be poured out upon all nations (v. 3, emphasis added). Clearly a causal relationship, demonstrated by the word "thus," is seen here between the rebellion of South Carolina, the southern states' appeal to Britain, and a war between all nations which would engulf the whole world, destroying the fabric of society (slaves raise up in war against their masters in v. 4; American Indians - the "remnants" of v. 5- vex the gentiles in v. 5) and culminating in the apocalyptic "consumption decreed" which makes "a full end of all nations" (v. 6) before the second coming of the Lord. Note that there is no hint in the text that could conceivably suggest that slavery itself would be at issue in the rebellion of South Carolina. For Smith in 1832, the prophecy predicted the immediate onset of a series of cataclysmic events preparatory to the Parousia.

Shortly after the revelation was recorded, the Nullification Crisis was peacefully resolved, and ceased to threaten the "death and misery of many souls" or any such string of events. Although the revelation apparently circulated among the Prophet's intimates, it was shelved, never to be published in his lifetime. But the revelation had privately circulated, and Smith apparently felt that the Lord had spoken to him in the matter, though the prophecy itself had seemingly fallen on its face. (Indeed, he might have understood well Jeremiah's complaint with the Lord mentioned above!) Yet the revelation remained alive in Smith's imagination, although understandably he did not give out the text in public. Outside of the circle of his nearest intimates he only referred to the general idea of impending general war contained in the revelation, rather than to its failed timetable and scenario of coming events.

Sunstone 11:4/16 (Jul 87)

[MorningStar]

It was forwarded to me and then I received this:

FYI

I heard from my sister in law who works for the Public Affairs Dept of the Church. Apparently, we should disregard this message because it was not verified by Church headquarters as being correct. The brethren are unhappy that it went out over the internet without authorization. Pres. Packer feels he was misquoted as well.

(It did contain some thought provoking counsel, regardless of the source)

[Palador]

Moral of this story: Don't believe everything you read until you hear it from OFFICIAL channels first.

[jwhitlock]

I have been posting here for almost five years and have read every one of the posts about that prophecy. Sorry, but it has not been answered and the prophecy has parts that have been reinterpreted or put on the shelf in light of actual history.

Such is your interpretation and your opinion - not fact.

And it appears that because it's your opinion, you feel free to take a cheap shot at the Church in any context you think you can draw a tenuous connection to, even though you know full well that faithful and knowledgable Latter-day Saints have good reason to disagree with you.

So you go ahead and take you cheap shots, and I'll continue to identify it when you do.

Did you really think you could get away with such an underhanded shot and not be called on it?

[jwhitlock]

That's about right. The prophecy was made during Nullification Crisis of 1832 where war with South Carolina seemed imminent. Then it cooled down, and the Church (and Joseph Smith) downplayed the prophecy for the next couple of decades.

It would have been hard for Joseph to downplay the prophecy for the next couple of decades after it was given, since he was murdered in 1844, but that's a minor detail.

How about a CFR that the Church downplayed the prophecy? It certainly isn't supported in your quote.

[m29173]

Moral of this story: Don't believe everything you read until you hear it from OFFICIAL channels first.

moral of the story is its not quite 2012 yet.....

[jwhitlock]

Duplicate post - deleted.

[John Larsen]

I feel sorry for President Packer. He is close to taking the helm of a Church and culture that has evolved and left him behind. He represents the last of an era. When white men in dark suits who knew what was best for everyone ruled the world. He is a relic of the authoritarian Church when conference speeches didnâ??t sound like they were written by press agents. In his time, the Brethren spoke and everyone listened and fear and guilt were motivators. His peers spoke as oneâ??s who had authority.

Today, the Church is full of faithful members, but they are disregarding the old ways. They think nothing of wearing pink shirts to Church or growing facial hair. Women work outside of the home because they want to and women may exercise as much authority in the home as men. The unwritten order of things is being rewritten and he clearly doesnâ??t like. Packer, to me is like the Colonel played by Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Man, just waiting for the Chance to bark out at the world and let them know what is wrong with the world and why we should listen to his answers.

I am pretty sure those words are his. I have it on pretty good authority he gave another talk like it about 2 years ago. I am likewise sure that he would love to deliver that address in conference, but they wonâ??t let him.

[ttribe]

I feel sorry for President Packer. He is close to taking the helm of a Church and culture that has evolved and left him behind. He represents the last of an era. When white men in dark suits who knew what was best for everyone ruled the world. He is a relic of the authoritarian Church when conference speeches didnâ??t sound like they were written by press agents. In his time, the Brethren spoke and everyone listened and fear and guilt were motivators. His peers spoke as oneâ??s who had authority.

Gee John, I'm having a hard time remembering all that "fear and guilt" being used as "motivators"...must be all that LDS I did growing up.

Today, the Church is full of faithful members, but they are disregarding the old ways. They think nothing of wearing pink shirts to Church or growing facial hair. Women work outside of the home because they want to and women may exercise as much authority in the home as men. The unwritten order of things is being rewritten and he clearly doesnâ??t like.

Next time you're inside his head (since clearly you already have been given your authoritative stance on what Pres. Packer does and doesn't like), can you check to see if he's got any thoughts on the timing of this projected calamity?

Packer, to me is like the Colonel played by Jack Nicholson in a Few Good Man, just waiting for the Chance to bark out at the world and let them know what is wrong with the world and why we should listen to his answers.

Not so sure comparing an Apostle to a character who was found to have ordered actions resulting in manslaughter is all that appropriate.

I am pretty sure those words are his.

How?

I have it on pretty good authority he gave another talk like it about 2 years ago.

CFR

I am likewise sure that he would love to deliver that address in conference, ...

Were you inside his head again?

...but they wonâ??t let him.

CFR

[Gillebre]

Gee John, tribe?

don't you mean John Gee..............................

[Traela]

It was forwarded to me and then I received this:

FYI

I heard from my sister in law who works for the Public Affairs Dept of the Church. Apparently, we should disregard this message because it was not verified by Church headquarters as being correct. The brethren are unhappy that it went out over the internet without authorization. Pres. Packer feels he was misquoted as well.

(It did contain some thought provoking counsel, regardless of the source)

Can we add it to the next volume of the Journal of Discourses?

[John Larsen]

Gee John, I'm having a hard time remembering all that "fear and guilt" being used as "motivators"...must be all that LDS I did growing up.

Yes, I must be really up in the night on this one. Fear and Guilt and the Mormon Church have never been used together. Schooled by another apologist.

Next time you're inside his head (since clearly you already have been given your authoritative stance on what Pres. Packer does and doesn't like), can you check to see if he's got any thoughts on the timing of this projected calamity?

The calamities are going to occur when they are always going to occur. Close enough to get people to take action, but far enough away so they cannot be pinned down.

Not so sure comparing an Apostle to a character who was found to have ordered actions resulting in manslaughter is all that appropriate.

How?

The State of Missouri might disagree with you on this one (Think extradition and indictment).

CFR

Funny that your are after my references but unconcerned about the references on the original. Why would you only want to see the sources for mine but not the OP. Maybe you really aren't concerned about chasing sources down.

I am likewise sure that he would love to deliver that address in conference, but they wonâ??t let him.

CFR

Well, since it was I who was sure, the reference would be me. Read the sentence again, it is wholly an expression of my opinion.

"John, can you vouch for the accuracy of your last sentence."

"Why yes, John. I can"

[ttribe]

Yes, I must be really up in the night on this one. Fear and Guilt and the Mormon Church have never been used together. Schooled by another apologist.

Oh please. As if I claimed such a "victory".

The calamities are going to occur when they are always going to occur. Close enough to get people to take action, but far enough away so they cannot be pinned down.

You got that QUICK. You MUST have direct access to his thoughts.

The State of Missouri might disagree with you on this one (Think extradition and indictment).

Yeah...the same government of the State of MO that wanted to "exterminate" all Mormons...I'll be sure to take their word as gold.

Funny that your are after my references but unconcerned about the references on the original. Why would you only want to see the sources for mine but not the OP. Maybe you really aren't concerned about chasing sources down.

Or maybe it's you who needs to do some reading and you'd find out I expressed skepticism about the whole thing.

Well, since it was I who was sure, the reference would be me. Read the sentence again, it is wholly an expression of my opinion.

"John, can you vouch for the accuracy of your last sentence."

"Why yes, John. I can"

Wow, another condescending remark from John Larsen; shocking. You're smart enough to know that I was asking for the source of your "sure" mindedness. After all, you spoke in such an authoritative manner, that I couldn't imagine it was just a hollow opinion. Guess I was wrong.

[Traela]

I just read the address (accurate or not). I really liked the part where Elder Packer turned to the bishop and told him that things such as the youth trip to Nauvoo Would Not Happen Again.

[John Larsen]

Wow, another condescending remark from John Larsen; shocking. You're smart enough to know that I was asking for the source of your "sure" mindedness. After all, you spoke in such an authoritative manner, that I couldn't imagine it was just a hollow opinion. Guess I was wrong.

You're statement should read "another condescending remark from the great John Larsen."

[mateo]

Perhaps Pres. Packer was talking about tonight's BYU- TCU game. A great catastrophe indeed!! So much for a shot at a BCS bowl game.

[Coldblackice]

Perhaps Pres. Packer was talking about tonight's BYU- TCU game. A great catastrophe indeed!! So much for a shot at a BCS bowl game.

Seriously... when will the Lord finally prove the authenticy of the BOM through the absolute dominance of the BYU Cougs, BCS Bowl after BCS bowl.

I did a little research and found some golden tidbits semi-confirming/denying the report. Link here: http://deseretbook.com/time-out/forum/time-out/564075

Here are some key quotes:

Quotes concerning this email are found on Deseret Book and LDS Apologetics forums' (Each line break is a new poster):

----------------------------------

"I received this in an email from my best friend who's MIL's brother lives in Pres Packers stake."

---------------------

"Pleae note; I am not saying this to be controversial or start any arguments.

It is certainly good counsel--the words of our prophets always are-- but it is important to remember that this is someone's interpretation of Pres. Packer's talk. In our stake, we have been counseled that we are not to record these talks and circulate them as it is far too easy for the information to be mis-recorded or mis-interpreted and they are only directed at the congregation to which he is speaking.

That is not to say that we cannot follow his counsel as the spirit moves us, but there have been some serious problems in the past year with alleged apostle talks circulating the internet.

Just a note of caution."

-----------------------------------

I just called the public affairs department for the Church. (801-240-2205). They are aware that the email is circulating and President Packer has issued a statement that he did, in fact, give a talk in his ward on Sunday. And these are notes from that talk. The Church says to please understand that this talk is not doctrine - or a statement by the Church, but the opinions of President Packer.

--------------------------------------------------

"Such is the case with this account of President Packer's talk that I received in an email. This morning I called the church offices and spoke personally with President Packer's secretary to ask about the accuracy of this email.

She confirmed that he did, in fact, speak to his ward last week about basic welfare and preparedness principles. But she was alarmed that this person in his ward took notes and wrote down what he said in HER words, NOT President Packer's.

They have taken up the practice of recording him every time he speaks because this is something that happens often so they always need an accurate record.

One example of an inaccuracy is in the portion of this email where the transcriber states:

"And as judges in Israel, the Bishop will respond. The time for financial largess in our ward activities is over.' [President Packer then turned directly to our Bishop and counseled him that last year's youth trip to Nauvoo, which was, President Packer said, a great opportunity for testimony building and missionary work, will not happen again. Times of/for that sort of expense in the Church are past.]"

In truth, what really happened is that he spoke of some extravagant homes that have been built up around his rather modest one and how the ward might not be able to go to Nauvoo this year, then he turned to the bishop and said that the bishop was the judge in Israel here, and that decision would be up to him.

President Packer's secretary said that the real meat from President Packer, and the intended message for the world is in last week's General Conference. And that if we really want to know what message he would have us hear, we need to listen to THAT talk, and throw THIS account of his talk away.

Sincerely,

Dennis"

[jwhitlock]

Interesting comments and observations.

I wonder if this event can be instructive on how we approach such things as the Journal of Discourses.

[sean0scott]

LDS will ignore any issues surrounding the fact that many LDS are apparently unable to use the spirit to verify whether or not those are the actual words of a prophet.

I think I'll treat it like the apocrypha until I hear otherwise; the nice thing about having these living prophets is I can just get their official announcement about a thing like this... then my faith becomes dormant and my knowledge is perfect.

[Calm]

One example of an inaccuracy is in the portion of this email where the transcriber states:

"And as judges in Israel, the Bishop will respond. The time for financial largess in our ward activities is over.' [President Packer then turned directly to our Bishop and counseled him that last year's youth trip to Nauvoo, which was, President Packer said, a great opportunity for testimony building and missionary work, will not happen again. Times of/for that sort of expense in the Church are past.]"

In truth, what really happened is that he spoke of some extravagant homes that have been built up around his rather modest one and how the ward might not be able to go to Nauvoo this year, then he turned to the bishop and said that the bishop was the judge in Israel here, and that decision would be up to him.

President Packer's secretary said that the real meat from President Packer, and the intended message for the world is in last week's General Conference. And that if we really want to know what message he would have us hear, we need to listen to THAT talk, and throw THIS account of his talk away.

Interesting. Quite a difference. Sounds like the writer was too busy filling in the gaps and missed some crucial points.

[cdowis]

People have been "prophesying the end of fiat currency since 1971 when the United States went off the gold standard set at Bretton Woods in 1944.

Actually they have been doing this for thousands of years, including statements in the New Testament, where the coming of the Lord is "nigh".

[cdowis]

People have been "prophesying the end of fiat currency since 1971 when the United States went off the gold standard set at Bretton Woods in 1944. Will those people be prophets to you too?I have been posting here for almost five years and have read every one of the posts about that prophecy. Sorry, but it has not been answered and the prophecy has parts that have been reinterpreted or put on the shelf in light of actual history.

I assume you will just continue to make childish cheap shots. And I see no point in reading nor responding your posts in the future.

Best of luck.

[Eden*]

Hopefully the other Bretheren have been informed about Packers leaked talk ~ is that a contradiction in terms? I suppose there should be nothing secret about his talk anyhow? However, any NEW warnings or latter day predictions or prognostications for the destiny of the world are NOT within his stewardship; only President Monson holds those keys to receive revelation for the entire church! Hopefully President Monson has been informed about what Elder Packer has been up to. . .

[Nevo]

"From time to time statements are circulated among members which are inaccurately attributed to leaders of the church. Many such statements distort current church teachings and are often based on rumors and innuendos. They are never transmitted officially, but by word of mouth, e-mail, or rather informal means. We encourage members of the church to never teach or pass on such statements without verifying that they are from approved church sources such as official statements, communications, and publications. Any notes made when General Authorities, Area Authority Seventies, or other general Church officers speak at regional and stake conferences or other meetings should not be distributed without the consent of the speaker. Personal notes are for individual use only. True spiritual growth is based on studying the scriptures, the teachings of the Brethren, and Church publications.

Sincerely your brethren,

Gordon B. Hinckley Thomas S. Monson James E. Faust

The First Presidency"