President Packer At A Slc Ward Fast And Testimony Mtg?

[jwhitlock]

In case anyone is interested, here are the notes (.pdf format) that were evidently / allegedly taken during the meeting.

2008.10.12_AninspiredSunday.pdf

[ttribe]

In case anyone is interested, here are the notes (.pdf format) that were evidently / allegedly taken during the meeting.

2008.10.12_AninspiredSunday.pdf

Those are pretty detailed notes for a non-recorded, impromptu, statement in a Fast and Testimony meeting. Why do I still feel skeptical?

[jwhitlock]

Those are pretty detailed notes for a non-recorded, impromptu, statement in a Fast and Testimony meeting. Why do I still feel skeptical?

Actually, if someone is good at shorthand (a lost art, alas!) the notes can be pretty detailed and comprehensive.

LOaP takes quite a few detailed notes on his computer at various events, to use another example, so something can't be automatically dismissed just because it appears to be too detailed.

[ttribe]

Actually, if someone is good at shorthand (a lost art, alas!) the notes can be pretty detailed and comprehensive.

LOaP takes quite a few detailed notes on his computer at various events, to use another example, so something can't be automatically dismissed just because it appears to be too detailed.

I hear you...and I haven't dismissed anything yet.

[The Nehor]

In case anyone is interested, here are the notes (.pdf format) that were evidently / allegedly taken during the meeting.

2008.10.12_AninspiredSunday.pdf

Maybe it's just me but that doesn't sound like Pres. Packer's style of speaking.

[jwhitlock]

I hear you...and I haven't dismissed anything yet.

Actually, I don't see anything particularly earthshaking in the notes. For the most part, it seems to be pretty standard counsel - or am I missing something?

[Tchild2]

Your comment about Joseph Smith was a cheap shot.

In no way were my comments, relating only to the so called "Civil War Prophecy" any sort of "cheap shot". They are relevant, because like then, today, there are conditions and events that can be foreseen and certain outcomes guessed at and extrapolated. Debt is rampant, our country is nearing bankruptcy and the financial system is utterly corrupt. Hence, economic doom is easy to forecast. No need for a God inspired prophet. There are prophets who can foresee such things (Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers, James Kunstler, etc), it just turns out that God need not be part of the equation.

By the way, I'll remind you of another thread that we butted heads on, where I thought things were going to be pretty rough, and you were taking the side that things were a bed of roses and that the future couldn't be brighter. Funny how you change your perspectives with hindsight, and then sniff about how you saw it all along - just like you claim prophets do.

I have been reading your posts on American Economics and I agree with you almost 100%. I have been doomerish for a number of years, so you might have to CFR that. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else? I am a "peak oil" advocate, so I am probably far more gloomy than you in that regard.

Except it appears prophets do something quite a bit different than your revisionist methodology.

Perhaps, but then it are the apologists who are doing the defining to which the critics are disagreeing. The Civil War prophecy being one.

[Alan]

I have to say that it does seem to be in President Packer's style. His choice of words and phrases etc. Although initially skeptical, I am now leaning towards it being true.

It looks to me as if it was recorded, perhaps by a mobile phone (you guys call them cell phones I believe).

Alan

[ttribe]

In no way were my comments, relating only to the so called "Civil War Prophecy" any sort of "cheap shot". They are relevant, because like then, today, there are conditions and events that can be foreseen and certain outcomes guessed at and extrapolated. Debt is rampant, our country is nearing bankruptcy and the financial system is utterly corrupt. Hence, economic doom is easy to forecast. No need for a God inspired prophet. There are prophets who can foresee such things (Peter Schiff, Jim Rogers, James Kunstler, etc), it just turns out that God need not be part of the equation.

If the Civil War was quite so visibly imminent, it shouldn't be all that difficult then to produce other contemporaneous predictions of its occurrence.

[Marchese]

Great things considered to be catastrophes are always happening. I don't think that's news.

[Tchild2]

If the Civil War was quite so visibly imminent, it shouldn't be all that difficult then to produce other contemporaneous predictions of its occurrence.

Your right. Here are mine

The U.S. dollar will collapse, as will all fiat currencies tied to the global financial system.

We will experience hyper-inflation

Gold will soar

Food and water will be scarce and people will be killed fighting for and trying to procure them.

Unemployment will rise and our standard of living will drop in the years to come.

Oil (energy) will be determined to be the most crucial aspect of civilization and financial growth, and its supply will decline precipitiously in the years to come.

Do I get the same open ended time frame that other LDS prophets are allowed?

[ttribe]

Your right. Here are mine

The U.S. dollar will collapse, as will all fiat currencies tied to the global financial system.

We will experience hyper-inflation

Gold will soar

Food and water will be scarce and people will be killed fighting for and trying to procure them.

Unemployment will rise and our standard of living will drop in the years to come.

Oil (energy) will be determined to be the most crucial aspect of civilization and financial growth, and its supply will decline precipitiously in the years to come.

Do I get the same open ended time frame that other LDS prophets are allowed?

I don't think you got my point.

[Palador]

Several things here strike me as an another FPR (Faith promoting rumor for those who aren't aware).

1. Lack of first person perspective. Being that this is in south Salt Lake, I would think that if a senior apostle made remarks like these, there would be several people who actually heard him talking.

2. Generic advice - This advice that he gives is really nothing new, and has been told countless times. How many times have we heard our leaders say to get out of debt, build up some savings, and learn the value of hard work.

3. Fantastic talk - And when I say "fantastic", I don't mean "great". Usually FPRs of this nature have some sort of fantastic element that makes it stand out. The element here, however, is talk of a "catastrophe". This is the hook that drives people to read this topic.

Right now, I'm convinced that this is nothing more than a FPR. It ranks up there with "we were generals in the war in heaven" and "angels will bow down to us because we lived in the days of Gordon B. Hinckley" or" Thomas Monson" as the case may be.

So, unless someone can bring up something up that's a bit more substantial, like a person who was actually there, I'm going to look at this the same way I treat any other FPR. Smile and nod.

[jwhitlock]

In no way were my comments, relating only to the so called "Civil War Prophecy" any sort of "cheap shot". They are relevant, because like then, today, there are conditions and events that can be foreseen and certain outcomes guessed at and extrapolated. Debt is rampant, our country is nearing bankruptcy and the financial system is utterly corrupt. Hence, economic doom is easy to forecast. No need for a God inspired prophet. There are prophets who can foresee such things, it just turns out that God need not be part of the equation.

You could have made your comments without referring to Joseph Smith. The only reason to include the CWP in your post was to take a shot at it. As you are aware, the CWP has been discussed elsewhere and there is good reason to consider it prophetic in nature.

[cinepro]

In case anyone is interested, here are the notes (.pdf format) that were evidently / allegedly taken during the meeting.

2008.10.12_AninspiredSunday.pdf

Thanks for posting the actual message. I predict that Elder Packer's office will deny the authenticity of the transcription within a week. Even sooner if we can get Scott Lloyd on the case

I also predict that LDS will ignore any issues surrounding the fact that many LDS are apparently unable to use the spirit to verify whether or not those are the actual words of a prophet.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I was too harsh at first, and after reading it, I actually do believe this is a reflection of notes from a real talk by Pres. Packer. I can't be sure it is accurate in all respects, but the overall message is one of optimism, and I think this may very well adequately reflect Pres. Packer's thoughts.

[cdowis]

You don't need Elder Packer to say that "doom and gloom" is here or coming, you just have to look for yourself. Kind of like Joseph Smith and the Civil war prophecy; the signs are all around you and it doesn't require prophecy to read them.

We had an extensive thread on the civil war prophecy. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=32959&hl=

Sigh, I guess you "forgot" that we addressed this already, and you were an active participant. And that is what makes you an antimormon.

Are you suggesting to continue that thread, or are you just blasting hot air.

[LDSMusic483]

Your right. Here are mine

The U.S. dollar will collapse, as will all fiat currencies tied to the global financial system.

We will experience hyper-inflation

Gold will soar

Food and water will be scarce and people will be killed fighting for and trying to procure them.

Unemployment will rise and our standard of living will drop in the years to come.

Oil (energy) will be determined to be the most crucial aspect of civilization and financial growth, and its supply will decline precipitiously in the years to come.

Do I get the same open ended time frame that other LDS prophets are allowed?

First you argue'd that anyone could have assumed what Joseph Smith prophesied based on the conditions of that day and age, and now you're implying that he had enough ample time for his prophecy to come true? Which is it? Too much time, or the conditions were ripe enough that anyone could have guessed right?

[Bender]

cdowis Posted Today, 03:14 PM

We had an extensive thread on the civil war prophecy. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=32959&hl=

Sigh, I guess you "forgot" that we addressed this already, and you were an active participant. And that is what makes you an antimormon.

So are you saying those who disagree with cdowis are antimormon, or those who think Joseph Smith didn't receive revelation from God in regards to the Civil War prophecy?

[cdowis]

So are you saying those who disagree with cdowis are antimormon, or those who think Joseph Smith didn't receive revelation from God in regards to the Civil War prophecy?

No, I am stating that those who "forget" are antimormons. He was an active participant on a thread where we dealt specifically with that issue in great detail. And he makes a sly comment as though we had never dealt with that issue.

Antimormons "forget".

I am asking him whether he intends to re-open that thread with his comment. If so, then do it.

[Bender]

cdowis Posted Today, 03:52 PM

No, I am stating that those who "forget" are antimormons. He was an active participant on a thread where we dealt specifically with that issue in great detail. And he makes a sly comment as though we had never dealt with that issue.

Antimormons "forget".

I am asking him whether he intends to re-open that thread with his comment. If so, then do it.

Wouldn't that include you and everyone else. Maybe he hasn't forgot, but maybe he sees the issue differently then you.

[Tchild2]

We had an extensive thread on the civil war prophecy. http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=32959&hl=

Sigh, I guess you "forgot" that we addressed this already, and you were an active participant. And that is what makes you an antimormon.

Are you suggesting to continue that thread, or are you just blasting hot air.

I guess you forgot that what you "addressed", was much ad hoc reinterpretation of the "prophecy". I am anti-Mormon because I don't find vague and open ended time frame prophecies valid? Hey cdowis, if that helps you battle your imaginary demons lurking in your head then have it at.

The prophecy has been addressed by critics and found wanting.

[Tchild2]

First you argue'd that anyone could have assumed what Joseph Smith prophesied based on the conditions of that day and age, and now you're implying that he had enough ample time for his prophecy to come true? Which is it? Too much time, or the conditions were ripe enough that anyone could have guessed right?

People have been "prophesying the end of fiat currency since 1971 when the United States went off the gold standard set at Bretton Woods in 1944. Will those people be prophets to you too?

You could have made your comments without referring to Joseph Smith. The only reason to include the CWP in your post was to take a shot at it. As you are aware, the CWP has been discussed elsewhere and there is good reason to consider it prophetic in nature.

I have been posting here for almost five years and have read every one of the posts about that prophecy. Sorry, but it has not been answered and the prophecy has parts that have been reinterpreted or put on the shelf in light of actual history.

[LDSMusic483]

People have been "prophesying the end of fiat currency since 1971 when the United States went off the gold standard set at Bretton Woods in 1944. Will those people be prophets to you too?I have been posting here for almost five years and have read every one of the posts about that prophecy. Sorry, but it has not been answered and the prophecy has parts that have been reinterpreted in light of actual history.

The difference is, there were "people" saying it. This was an individual who said it and detailed where it would begin. They didn't have the same communication we have now, so it wasn't possible for him to be privy of the goings on in other states. Now, if you could find someone else who said back in the 1830's that said that there would be a civil war and what would be the cause and where it would start...then your arguments might carry some more water.

[ttribe]

The difference is, there were "people" saying it. This was an individual who said it and detailed where it would begin. They didn't have the same communication we have now, so it wasn't possible for him to be privy of the goings on in other states. Now, if you could find someone else who said back in the 1830's that said that there would be a civil war and what would be the cause and where it would start...then your arguments might carry some more water.

Which was my point before but Tchild seemed to either ignore it or misunderstand it.