President Packer At A Slc Ward Fast And Testimony Mtg?

[kamenraider]

...she was alarmed that this person in his ward took notes and wrote down what he said in HER words, NOT President Packer's.

They have taken up the practice of recording him every time he speaks because this is something that happens often so they always need an accurate record.

One example of an inaccuracy is in the portion of this email where the transcriber states:

"And as judges in Israel, the Bishop will respond. The time for financial largess in our ward activities is over.' [President Packer then turned directly to our Bishop and counseled him that last year's youth trip to Nauvoo, which was, President Packer said, a great opportunity for testimony building and missionary work, will not happen again. Times of/for that sort of expense in the Church are past.]"

In truth, what really happened is that he spoke of some extravagant homes that have been built up around his rather modest one and how the ward might not be able to go to Nauvoo this year, then he turned to the bishop and said that the bishop was the judge in Israel here, and that decision would be up to him. ...

Why don't "they" post exactly what Pres. Packer did say, instead of paraphrasing just like the original email does?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My co-worker's cousin's sister-in-law's boyfriend was there, and it really happened!!

Ya think?

Also someone 7 times removed from Kevin Bacon.

[consiglieri]

Assuming for the present that the vast majority of posters here are correct, and that Elder Packer really did not, in effect, predict the current economic catastrophe before it happened, it opens the window to an interesting observation . . .

. . . that being the penchant of some church members to attempt to bolster the prophetic credentials of a religious authority by placing such words in their mouths after a catastrophe has occurred.

A large number of New Testament scholars would see the same thing in Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70; that a faithful church member writing after the destruction put those words in Jesus' mouth prior to the destruction in order to bolster his prophetic credentials.

Just an observation.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[jwhitlock]

Assuming for the present that the vast majority of posters here are correct, and that Elder Packer really did not, in effect, predict the current economic catastrophe before it happened, it opens the window to an interesting observation . . .

. . . that being the penchant of some church members to attempt to bolster the prophetic credentials of a religious authority by placing such words in their mouths after a catastrophe has occurred.

A large number of New Testament scholars would see the same thing in Jesus' prediction of the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in A.D. 70; that a faithful church member writing after the destruction put those words in Jesus' mouth prior to the destruction in order to bolster his prophetic credentials.

Just an observation.

For shame! You sound like you've been reading Ehrman again.

To think that anyone in the heresy debates of the first few centuries after Christ would ever make changes to the scriptures to bolster their POV! I mean, like, get real. God would never allow that to happen.

We Mormons could really learn from the stellar example of the early Saints in keeping their scriptures - and the writings of their leaders - pure and uncorrupted until somebody finally started keeping manuscripts around the third century.

[alter idem]

Hopefully the other Bretheren have been informed about Packers leaked talk ~ is that a contradiction in terms? I suppose there should be nothing secret about his talk anyhow? However, any NEW warnings or latter day predictions or prognostications for the destiny of the world are NOT within his stewardship; only President Monson holds those keys to receive revelation for the entire church! Hopefully President Monson has been informed about what Elder Packer has been up to. . .

I don't know where you get this idea. Of course it is within his stewardship to raise the voice of warning. He's an Apostle--a special witness of the Lord-set apart as a prophet, seer and revelator. This IS his job. No one needs to tattle on him to Pres. Monson. He hasn't done anything wrong.

My question when I read it--what the heck is wrong with Pres. Packer's ward-taking the Youth to NAUVOO? Did they not get the memo about no more super-activities that was given some 20 years ago? It really seems that some stakes in the church (and I say stakes because a ward is not allowed to do something like that unless they have approval from the Stake) just go on their merry way, ignoring the directives that come down from the church leadership. If I was Pres. Packer, I'd be wondering if my stake leaders even bother to read the letters church leadership sends out before filing them away and forgetting them.

[Muc'ul Ajwalil]

Have any of you received the e-mail that tells of President Packer standing up at a fast and testimony meeting in the Forest Bend Ward in SLC on Oct 12 and saying among other things "It's about time the Lord taught us a lesson, a great catastrophe is coming." The "message" is quite long and speaks of our need to be chastened as the nephites of old because of pride and wickedness. It sound unbelievable, I can't imagine it is real. But does anyone have any information in the matter? Anyone actually there? Can we assume for sure it is folklore?

Scott26.2 (newbie)

Smells like a FPR, or in this case a Q12AR

[juliann]

"From time to time statements are circulated among members which are inaccurately attributed to leaders of the church. Many such statements distort current church teachings and are often based on rumors and innuendos. They are never transmitted officially, but by word of mouth, e-mail, or rather informal means. We encourage members of the church to never teach or pass on such statements without verifying that they are from approved church sources such as official statements, communications, and publications. Any notes made when General Authorities, Area Authority Seventies, or other general Church officers speak at regional and stake conferences or other meetings should not be distributed without the consent of the speaker. Personal notes are for individual use only. True spiritual growth is based on studying the scriptures, the teachings of the Brethren, and Church publications.

Sincerely your brethren,

Gordon B. Hinckley Thomas S. Monson James E. Faust

The First Presidency"

Good reminder.

My first question is why in the world Pres. Packer would be abusing a Testimony meeting to give a sermon...the week after General Conference.

[Alan]

Everybody does it in our ward!

Alan

[creightonian]

If anyone is interested in the official church response to this you can hear a recording of the statement they have issued by calling either 240-2205 or 240-1000 and asking for extension 22833.

I plan on reading the statement in our sacrament meeting next week mainly because it was quoted by one of our speakers yesterday.

[bluebell]

If anyone is interested in the official church response to this you can hear a recording of the statement they have issued by calling either 240-2205 or 240-1000 and asking for extension 22833.

I plan on reading the statement in our sacrament meeting next week mainly because it was quoted by one of our speakers yesterday.

Can you just paraphrase what it says?

[creightonian]

It says the talk was reported inaccurately, members are refered to Pres. Packer's recent conference address.

Pres. Packer did speak in the ward that day, those are notes. Members should not quote GA's without permission. Personal notes are for personal use, members refered to 1st Pres. letter dated May13 2004 which pretty much says all of the above..

The recording takes maybe one minute to listen to, you could call any of the church's 800 numbers if you are not in Salt Lake and ask for the extension.

[Traela]

My question when I read it--what the heck is wrong with Pres. Packer's ward-taking the Youth to NAUVOO? Did they not get the memo about no more super-activities that was given some 20 years ago? It really seems that some stakes in the church (and I say stakes because a ward is not allowed to do something like that unless they have approval from the Stake) just go on their merry way, ignoring the directives that come down from the church leadership. If I was Pres. Packer, I'd be wondering if my stake leaders even bother to read the letters church leadership sends out before filing them away and forgetting them.

Well, yeah. That directive was reiterated in our area about 8 years ago; our new stake president immediately withdrew approval for a semi-planned super activity (a trip to Martin's Cove, IIRC).

A few years later when I listened to a couple of women from another stake discussing their upcoming superactivity, I had a really hard time keeping my mouth shut. But I decided "My SP follows Church directives" was probably kind of rude.

[bluebell]

Well, yeah. That directive was reiterated in our area about 8 years ago; our new stake president immediately withdrew approval for a semi-planned super activity (a trip to Martin's Cove, IIRC).

A few years later when I listened to a couple of women from another stake discussing their upcoming superactivity, I had a really hard time keeping my mouth shut. But I decided "My SP follows Church directives" was probably kind of rude.

What's considered a 'super activity'?

[cinepro]

What's considered a 'super activity'?

I'd like to know too. I mean, what activities are more "super" than spending hundreds of dollars per Scout to go camping for a week? Heck, next summer our Scout troop is going to Catalina Island for camp! It's like $450 per scout.

And it will be awesome!

[Eden*]

I don't know where you get this idea. Of course it is within his stewardship to raise the voice of warning. He's an Apostle--a special witness of the Lord-set apart as a prophet, seer and revelator. This IS his job. No one needs to tattle on him to Pres. Monson. He hasn't done anything wrong.

My question when I read it--what the heck is wrong with Pres. Packer's ward-taking the Youth to NAUVOO? Did they not get the memo about no more super-activities that was given some 20 years ago? It really seems that some stakes in the church (and I say stakes because a ward is not allowed to do something like that unless they have approval from the Stake) just go on their merry way, ignoring the directives that come down from the church leadership. If I was Pres. Packer, I'd be wondering if my stake leaders even bother to read the letters church leadership sends out before filing them away and forgetting them.

It within Elder Packers jurisdiction to sound the warning voice only as part of the chorus with others it is not however within his juristiction to reveal anything *new, only President Monson can actively use those keys, and him alone.

[emeliza]

What's considered a 'super activity'?

I was curious on that as well. Our youth go to Nauvoo all the time, but again we are only 3 hours away from it. Last summer they went to Palmyra though and that is much further.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Boyd K. Packer: Supposed transcript from 12 October 2008 talk

Claim

A common e-mail circulated by some members claims to be a transcript of remarks given by President Packer in the Forest Bend Ward in Salt Lake City, Utah, on 12 October 2008. Reportedly, Pres. Packer is quoted as saying that a catastrophic event was looming in the immediate future and that we must get used to making do with what we have or doing without. He is also quoted as saying the world was too dangerous for us to let our children play outside alone.

Response

A FAIR member contacted Church Public Affairs, and received the following response (the words are the FAIR member's, not the Church's):

I was told that while President Packer did indeed speak at the meeting cited, no transcript was made and that the one circulating was done after the talk was given and should not be considered to be authoritative. The following statement was given to me on the matter:

The following First Presidency letter explains the Churchâ??s position on these types of e-mails. The letter was issued on May 13, 2004 and to all Church units and LDS Church leaders. Its subject was:

Statements Attributed to Church Leaders

From time to time statements are circulated among members which are inaccurately attributed to the leaders of the Church. Many such statements distort current Church teachings and are often based on rumors and innuendos. They are never transmitted officially, but by word of mouth, e-mail, or other informal means.

We encourage members of the Church to never teach or pass on such statements without verifying that they are from approved Church sources, such as official statements, communications, and publications. Any notes made when General Authorities, Area Authority Seventies, or other general Church officers speak at regional and stake conferences or other meetings should not be distributed without the consent of the speaker. Personal notes are for individual use only.

True spiritual growth is based on studying the scriptures, the teachings of the Brethren, and Church publications.

President Packer's secretary indicated further that President Packer's message for the world is in last week's [i.e., October 2008] General Conference. If members of the Church want to know what message he would have us hear, we need to listen to that talk, and throw this account of his talk away. President Packer's office cautioned that the talk given on 12 October represented President Packer's personal views, and should not be considered to be doctrine or a statement of the Church's views.

Conclusion

President Packer give did give a talk on the date cited. No approved transcript exists, and it is contrary to the counsel of the Church to circulate or rely on such unofficial accounts, which often distort or misunderstand (even if unintentionally) the intent of the speaker.

When prophets and apostles wish to communicate important information for the spiritual or temporal well-being of members, they will do so via official channels to the entire Church, not in small meetings from which we must rely on unverified accounts to receive their message.

[from FAIR, yo]

[SLC]

I was curious on that as well. Our youth go to Nauvoo all the time, but again we are only 3 hours away from it. Last summer they went to Palmyra though and that is much further.

Prior to the current budget guidelines wards raised their own funds for church activities. Wards in wealthy neighborhoods were regularly having lavish parties and taking extravagant trips. The Church didn't want people's economic situation to determine their church experience. Therefore a change was made. The current program gives a dollar amount to each ward based on sacrament meeting attendance. Additional funds are also given to each ward for each primary child and each young man or young woman in mutual. That is how all ward activities should be paid for. There are exceptions when it comes to the youth. Youth activities should be paid for out of the allotted budget. If there is not enough money in the budget to cover YM camps or YW camps then parents of the youth can be asked to make up what the ward can't afford. If the parents can't make up the needed difference then a fundraiser may be held. There is a rule that must be followed for parent or fundraiser money. The activity cannot be for combined YM/YW camps like youth conference. So the YM can have parent money or fundraiser money for a YM camp. And same for the YW. Obviously there are wards that abuse this policy. But all activities are supposed to be approved by the Stake President and some SP's let these things happen. Sorry to the OP for the threadjack.

[cinepro]

Conclusion

President Packer give did give a talk on the date cited. No approved transcript exists, and it is contrary to the counsel of the Church to circulate or rely on such unofficial accounts, which often distort or misunderstand (even if unintentionally) the intent of the speaker.

When prophets and apostles wish to communicate important information for the spiritual or temporal well-being of members, they will do so via official channels to the entire Church, not in small meetings from which we must rely on unverified accounts to receive their message.

[from FAIR, yo]

I will note that we had President Packer speak at our Stake Conference a few years ago, and his talk was immensely enjoyable. He shared many personal experiences (specific to his past experiences in our area, and even the building he was speaking in). It was a side of him I had never seen from his General Conference addresses. He just seemed happy to be there.

[CMZ]

However, any NEW warnings or latter day predictions or prognostications for the destiny of the world are NOT within his stewardship; only President Monson holds those keys to receive revelation for the entire church! Hopefully President Monson has been informed about what Elder Packer has been up to. . .

Don't be so sure. I haven't read the PDF so I don't know if he overstepped the bounds of his authority but I'd say it's likely he didn't and I think he also knows very well how to not overstep them and I also know it's not in his character to overstep them. Quite often apostles will state new/newish things and then the President of the Church will say, "Yeah, that sounds right."

I think one of the signs of the times is when Deseret Book publishes a book with the cheesy Mormon pop culture title of "Odds Are You Are Going To Be Exalted." I basically agree with the sentiment of it but making it the title of a book is unwise.

I can tell you definitively that the financial trouble the world faces now is due to people looking out for themselves and not for each other.

[alter idem]

It within Elder Packers jurisdiction to sound the warning voice only as part of the chorus with others it is not however within his juristiction to reveal anything *new, only President Monson can actively use those keys, and him alone.

Just what do you think Pres. Packer "revealed"?

Where in the remarks did Pres. Packer overstep his jurisdiction? Please explain, because I personally did not see anything wrong with what was reported that he said. It was reported that he said "a great catastrophe is coming"--are you suggesting he's making a prophetic prediction? It's way too vague to be considered a prophetic prediction. And frankly, it doesn't take a Prophet to predict that--we live in the last days--we KNOW a great catastrophe or any number of them are coming. Joe Biden predicted some kind of major crisis the other day and I don't think he claims to be a Prophet.

And before you try and claim I'm twisting your words, here is what you said;

However, any NEW warnings or latter day predictions or prognostications for the destiny of the world are NOT within his stewardship; only President Monson holds those keys to receive revelation for the entire church! Hopefully President Monson has been informed about what Elder Packer has been up to

I do not see how you can think he was making some kind of specific prediction. No dates, no particulars--this was no prediction, it was nothing different than saying we live in the last days and perilous times are ahead, etc. So, please show me where a member of the Quorum of the 12 is not allowed to say that a catastrophe is coming or anything to that effect, since we don't actually know what he said. What bothers me is people getting all worked up over a talk in church that was pretty general and certainly not worth claiming the man overstepped his bounds, simply because he wants members to realize that they need to realize we live in precarious times.

[alter idem]

I was curious on that as well. Our youth go to Nauvoo all the time, but again we are only 3 hours away from it. Last summer they went to Palmyra though and that is much further.

Visiting Nauvoo when you live nearby is not a "super-activity". However, your group traveling to Palmyra I'm sure is. Stake Presidents must approve trips over a 100 miles away. Your stake allowed what we here in Salt Lake call a "super-activity" and the stake I have lived in for 17 years would not allow that. When I was a youth we went to BYU (from California), the Youth also went to Mexico and later to Hawaii. After the directive came down from Salt Lake, there were no more activities of that kind--it didn't matter if the members were rich enough to pay for it, they weren't supposed to do it, but as you can see, some still do.

As Traela mentioned, some Stake Presidents are more careful to enforce the rules than others.

[Utah_Guru]

It was forwarded to me and then I received this:

FYI

I heard from my sister in law who works for the Public Affairs Dept of the Church. Apparently, we should disregard this message because it was not verified by Church headquarters as being correct. The brethren are unhappy that it went out over the internet without authorization. Pres. Packer feels he was misquoted as well.

(It did contain some thought provoking counsel, regardless of the source)

I need that thought provoking council...send it to keithkuder@hotmail.com....thanks!

[Sarrott]

I believe the "Great Catastrophe" Pres. Packer was speaking of was sports in Seattle WA.

UW Football: 0-6

WSU Football: 1-7

Seahawks: 1-5

Mariners: 61-101

Sonics: Taken to Oklahoma

[alter idem]

I believe the "Great Catastrophe" Pres. Packer was speaking of was sports in Seattle WA.

UW Football: 0-6

WSU Football: 1-7

Seahawks: 1-5

Mariners: 61-101

Sonics: Taken to Oklahoma

Could be. Or, maybe he's thinking of the upcoming election.