Theological Twinkies

[SolarPowered]

That G-d helps find car keys.

I was there when it happened. We'd just finished offering a group prayer, when one of the women looked down and saw the keys peeking out of the dirt.

[Lightbearer]

The thread about guilt in the Church got me thinking about pseudo-doctrine, or what Elder Holland called "theological twinkies." I want to compile a collection of these items, if possible, so please add ones you have heard. Quotes, stories, parables, sayings, etc. that you believe fall short, are overused, etc.

Some examples include:

The lesson of the "licked cupcakes"

Today's youth being Generals in the War in Heaven

The little boy who sees birds, telling him to go to the temple

The boy on the train tracks whose father has to choose to kill him to save the lives of those on the train

"I never said it would be easy, I only said it would be worth it"

Actually the boy on the train tracks story was a movie that I saw while I was in the MTC. I think the title was "The River" or "The Bridge" or something like that. It was supposed to teach us about the atonement. As for "soul mates" I believe that some may have been pre-selected in the premortal life, but I also think that in many cases it is just a personal preference that is still based on the agency of the two people.

As for "Mormon Myths" I have a few I object to:

1) How about that Joseph Smith taught if you could only see the Telestial Kingdom you would commit suicide to get there. I have never been able to find a direct quote of the Prophet on this, maybe it was in someones journal that they pruported hearing him say, but I do not believe he ever made such a statement.

2) The Ten Lost Tribes are under a glacier inside the hollow earth and their "prophets" will lead them to Zion before the second coming.

3) Cain appearing to people after the flood...especially in this dispensation.

4) The idea that we must "get out of our comfort zone" to do Missionary work. It probably comes from an incorrect interpretation of D&C 60:2. I think it is demeaning and demoralizing, in fact I think it should be rephrased that we should "bring others into our comfort zone." We should not do Missionary work out of fear or by being compelled, it should come naturally from love of our neightbors and be inspired by the Spirit.

5) Nobody can be perfect in this life...as an excuse for sin. Also a variation of this is nobody can keep all of the commandments of God. This one is extremly detrimental to ones spiritual life if interpreted the wrong way. We can be perfect in some things...we can live the law of chastity, we can live the law of tithing, we can not steal, or not commit adultery, we can live the word of wisdom. Some other things take the better part of a lifetime to master, such as love your enemies, do go to those who hate you...these take time and a lot of work but with the Lord's help they are do-able.

6) Boys will be boys...not necessarily just a Mormon Myth. I have noticed it as parents and leaders excusing youth from responsiblity just because they are "teenagers" or "children." I believe in "raising the bar" and expecting more from our youth and children.

7) Everyone did that when they were that age. (A variation of #6) Everyone did not do that when they were that age. That is the old bandwagon approach to propaganda.

8 ) We must all move to Utah before the second coming or we will be destroyed with the wicked. This is totally against what the brethern have taught at least starting 30 years ago. If we are gathered to a Stake of Zion anywhere in the world and we are "standing in holy places" meaning we are worthy and living the Gospel then we need not fear.

9) There is no "hell" this one is stupid, because all our scriptures (standard works) speak of a "hell" in the spirit world before the resurrection and "outer darkness" or the "lake of fire" where the sons of perdition go.

10) The "spirit of the law" and not the "letter of the law" which was commonly used by Missionaries for breaking the rules or otherwise not following the principles of the Gospel.

There are probably many more but this is the ones that came to my mind.

[The Nehor]

Actually the boy on the train tracks story was a movie that I saw while I was in the MTC. I think the title was "The River" or "The Bridge" or something like that. It was supposed to teach us about the atonement. As for "soul mates" I believe that some may have been pre-selected in the premortal life, but I also think that in many cases it is just a personal preference that is still based on the agency of the two people.

As for "Mormon Myths" I have a few I object to:

1) How about that Joseph Smith taught if you could only see the Telestial Kingdom you would commit suicide to get there. I have never been able to find a direct quote of the Prophet on this, maybe it was in someones journal that they pruported hearing him say, but I do not believe he ever made such a statement.

2) The Ten Lost Tribes are under a glacier inside the hollow earth and their "prophets" will lead them to Zion before the second coming.

3) Cain appearing to people after the flood...especially in this dispensation.

4) The idea that we must "get out of our comfort zone" to do Missionary work. It probably comes from an incorrect interpretation of D&C 60:2. I think it is demeaning and demoralizing, in fact I think it should be rephrased that we should "bring others into our comfort zone." We should not do Missionary work out of fear or by being compelled, it should come naturally from love of our neightbors and be inspired by the Spirit.

5) Nobody can be perfect in this life...as an excuse for sin. Also a variation of this is nobody can keep all of the commandments of God. This one is extremly detrimental to ones spiritual life if interpreted the wrong way. We can be perfect in some things...we can live the law of chastity, we can live the law of tithing, we can not steal, or not commit adultery, we can live the word of wisdom. Some other things take the better part of a lifetime to master, such as love your enemies, do go to those who hate you...these take time and a lot of work but with the Lord's help they are do-able.

6) Boys will be boys...not necessarily just a Mormon Myth. I have noticed it as parents and leaders excusing youth from responsiblity just because they are "teenagers" or "children." I believe in "raising the bar" and expecting more from our youth and children.

7) Everyone did that when they were that age. (A variation of #6) Everyone did not do that when they were that age. That is the old bandwagon approach to propaganda.

8 ) We must all move to Utah before the second coming or we will be destroyed with the wicked. This is totally against what the brethern have taught at least starting 30 years ago. If we are gathered to a Stake of Zion anywhere in the world and we are "standing in holy places" meaning we are worthy and living the Gospel then we need not fear.

9) There is no "hell" this one is stupid, because all our scriptures (standard works) speak of a "hell" in the spirit world before the resurrection and "outer darkness" or the "lake of fire" where the sons of perdition go.

10) The "spirit of the law" and not the "letter of the law" which was commonly used by Missionaries for breaking the rules or otherwise not following the principles of the Gospel.

There are probably many more but this is the ones that came to my mind.

1) The Joseph Smith quote exists but it is largely not understood. Here it is:

"If the people knew what was behind the veil, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there. But the Lord in his wisdom implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their Creator." -attributed to Joseph Smith.

3) The Cain appearance is substantiated to a degree.

[Severian]

That bodies can live without blood (zombies)

That white shirts are reverential

That God is from Utah so he must demand cultural conformity to its conventions

That archaic language in prayer is desirable

[The Nehor]

That bodies can live without blood (zombies)

You obviously underestimate the threat...I advise this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Survival-Guid...n/dp/1400049628

Top 10 Lessons for Surviving a Zombie Attack

1. Organize before they rise!

2. They feel no fear, why should you?

3. Use your head: cut off theirs.

4. Blades donâ??t need reloading.

5. Ideal protection = tight clothes, short hair.

6. Get up the staircase, then destroy it.

7. Get out of the car, get onto the bike.

8. Keep moving, keep low, keep quiet, keep alert!

9. No place is safe, only safer.

10. The zombie may be gone, but the threat lives on.

Donâ??t be carefree and foolish with your most precious assetâ??life. This book is your key to survival against the hordes of undead who may be stalking you right now without your even knowing it. The Zombie Survival Guide offers complete protection through trusted, proven tips for safeguarding yourself and your loved ones against the living dead. It is a book that can save your life.

[LifeOnaPlate]

1) The Joseph Smith quote exists but it is largely not understood. Here it is:

"If the people knew what was behind the veil, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there. But the Lord in his wisdom implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their Creator." -attributed to Joseph Smith.

I call for reference on that quote, because I disbelieve it. Here is something Mr. Doctor Steuss pointed out:

Charles Walker, who is supposedly quoting Wilford Woodruff, who is supposedly quoting Joseph Smith.

"If the people knew what was behind the veil, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there. But the Lord in his wisdom implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their Creator." (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker, ed. by A. Karl Larson and Katherine M. Larson [Logan, Ut.: Utah State University Press, 1980], vol. 1, pp. 465-66.)

Here's something from Truman Madsen's "Radiant Life:"

Many of us have heard the statement made-and ascribed to either Joseph Smith or Brigham Young-to the effect that if a person could see the glory of the Telestial kingdom he would commit suicide to get there. If only we could get the fundamental doctrines across to Church members as rapidly as we get across rumors, everyone would be saved. Am I saying that's a rumor? Well, I am saying this, that over a period of many years I have combed everything Joseph Smith said and wrote, and I can't find it. Hugh Nibley has done the same with Brigham Young's words, and he can't find it. It is hard to prove a negative, of course. What I can say is that we have found a statement from Joseph via Wilford Woodruff that says something else that is close, and I suspect it is the origin of the alleged statement (see Diary of Charles C. Walker, August 1837, in Church Historical Department). Elder Woodruff said the Prophet taught this, roughly: that if we could see what is beyond the veil we couldn't stand to stay here in mortality for five minutes. And I suggest from the context that he was not talking about the Telestial kingdom. He was talking about what it was like to be in the presence of God and the family.

[SolarPowered]

...

That white shirts are reverential

...

You forgot one:

Never beam down in a red shirt.

[Lightbearer]

Ah, and the classic "once the prophet speaks the thinking has been done!"

This one I have not heard but actually one that may be considered simular is true:

(First Presidency Message â??The Debate Is Overâ? By President N. Eldon Tanner, First Counselor in the First Presidency. N. Eldon Tanner, â??â??The Debate Is Overâ??,â? Ensign, Aug 1979,

[Doctor Steuss]

This one I have not heard but actually one that may be considered simular is true:Not exactly the same, but a simular thought.

"Know this, that every soul is free

To choose his life and what he'll be,

For this eternal truth is given

That God will force no man to heaven."

[Luigi]

5) Nobody can be perfect in this life...as an excuse for sin. Also a variation of this is nobody can keep all of the commandments of God. This one is extremly detrimental to ones spiritual life if interpreted the wrong way. We can be perfect in some things...we can live the law of chastity, we can live the law of tithing, we can not steal, or not commit adultery, we can live the word of wisdom. Some other things take the better part of a lifetime to master, such as love your enemies, do go to those who hate you...these take time and a lot of work but with the Lord's help they are do-able.

I don't think most devout Mormons use the 'nobody's perfect' thing to justify breaking 'major' commandments-they use it so they don't become immobilized by feeling they will never be good enough.

6) Boys will be boys...not necessarily just a Mormon Myth. I have noticed it as parents and leaders excusing youth from responsiblity just because they are "teenagers" or "children." I believe in "raising the bar" and expecting more from our youth and children.

7) Everyone did that when they were that age. (A variation of #6) Everyone did not do that when they were that age. That is the old bandwagon approach to propaganda.

That isn't a myth-human brains don't fully develop until the mid-twenties. Consequently children/youth react more using primitive instincts and are less capable of considering long-term consequences. Therefore parents have to rely on more immediate consequences to actions (for example, Immorality will get you in hell-less effective, immorality will immediately expose you to disease which will kill you not to mention you will be grounded until you are 18-more effective).

8 ) We must all move to Utah before the second coming or we will be destroyed with the wicked. This is totally against what the brethern have taught at least starting 30 years ago. If we are gathered to a Stake of Zion anywhere in the world and we are "standing in holy places" meaning we are worthy and living the Gospel then we need not fear.

Don't you mean Missouri? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say everyone would move to Utah before the 2nd coming.

9) There is no "hell" this one is stupid, because all our scriptures (standard works) speak of a "hell" in the spirit world before the resurrection and "outer darkness" or the "lake of fire" where the sons of perdition go.

I haven't heard TBM's suggest there is no hell. More often I hear religious people suggesting hell is reserved for an ever dwindling group of people such as murderers, rapists, etc. as opposed to people who make minor errors and/or believe differently and I think this is a sign of increasing tolerance. Don't you think it's hard for you to get along with someone who insists you are going to hell?

10) The "spirit of the law" and not the "letter of the law" which was commonly used by Missionaries for breaking the rules or otherwise not following the principles of the Gospel.

I think that is people trying to make life liveable. I tried to be a 'letter of the law' TBM for many years and it nearly drove me crazy. I think your 'spirit of the law' individuals are much more likely to stay in the Church because anyone who really believes you must always follow the 'letter of the law' and who really constantly analyzes their performance to that standard will begin to feel like getting to heaven is real hell.

[The Nehor]

I call for reference on that quote, because I disbelieve it. Here is something Mr. Doctor Steuss pointed out:

Charles Walker, who is supposedly quoting Wilford Woodruff, who is supposedly quoting Joseph Smith.

"If the people knew what was behind the veil, they would try by every means to commit suicide that they might get there. But the Lord in his wisdom implanted the fear of death in every person that they might cling to life and thus accomplish the designs of their Creator." (Diary of Charles Lowell Walker, ed. by A. Karl Larson and Katherine M. Larson [Logan, Ut.: Utah State University Press, 1980], vol. 1, pp. 465-66.)

Here's something from Truman Madsen's "Radiant Life:"

By saying not understood I meant only that the quote exists and generally doesn't mean what people use it to mean. The Spirit World is not the Telestial Kingdom.

I know the quote only exists third-hand. I have no opinion on it's authenticity. Anyone else know more?

[Lightbearer]

"Know this, that every soul is free

To choose his life and what he'll be,

For this eternal truth is given

That God will force no man to heaven."

That is true. And I think President Tanner's sentiments are akin to what Joshua said:

(Joshua 24:14-15) "Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD. And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

[Scott Lloyd]

That bodies can live without blood (zombies)

That white shirts are reverential

That God is from Utah so he must demand cultural conformity to its conventions

That archaic language in prayer is desirable

These don't sound so much like pseudo-doctrines as they do ham-handed distortions and caricatures of authentic doctrines or policies.

[LifeOnaPlate]

N. Eldon Tanner needs a sip of Godbe soup, imo.

[mnn727]

"Theological twinkie"... hey, I like that term.

How about stories of people who've seen Nephite warriors guarding the temple or ghosts waiting for their temple work to be done.

I don't know about warriors or ghosts, but I saw an Angel once in the Temple (and now I'm married/sealed to her)

[Lightbearer]

I don't think most devout Mormons use the 'nobody's perfect' thing to justify breaking 'major' commandments-they use it so they don't become immobilized by feeling they will never be good enough.

I'm not so sure, I think it falls more in the excuse camp and it also comes from a flawed understanding of the step by step nature of that perfection process.

That isn't a myth-human brains don't fully develop until the mid-twenties. Consequently children/youth react more using primitive instincts and are less capable of considering long-term consequences. Therefore parents have to rely on more immediate consequences to actions (for example, Immorality will get you in hell-less effective, immorality will immediately expose you to disease which will kill you not to mention you will be grounded until you are 18-more effective).

I think this has some validity (until someone has reached 25+ they think they know everything and when they attain that age they often realize how much their parents really knew and how little they themselves knew.) However the modern psycho-babel has tried to excuse everyone from everything and tries to get us to not hold anyone accountable for their actions. Children can and should be taught in their youth to keep the commandments of God, it has been and can be done.

Don't you mean Missouri? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say everyone would move to Utah before the 2nd coming.

No actually I knew a young woman who really believed that Utah was "Zion" and that everywhere else would be destroyed. Go figure...oh and everyone going to Missouri is also a Mormon Myth as well. The Church headquarters will be moved there but we will not all be required to go live there.

I haven't heard TBM's suggest there is no hell. More often I hear religious people suggesting hell is reserved for an ever dwindling group of people such as murderers, rapists, etc. as opposed to people who make minor errors and/or believe differently and I think this is a sign of increasing tolerance. Don't you think it's hard for you to get along with someone who insists you are going to hell?

Hell is for those who live a Telestial law and do not repent. Denying the justice of God is not tolerance. Yes I do think it is hard to get along with someone who insists I am going to hell. That is between me and God, as it is with all men. Denying the existance of hell will not change anything.

I think that is people trying to make life liveable. I tried to be a 'letter of the law' TBM for many years and it nearly drove me crazy. I think your 'spirit of the law' individuals are much more likely to stay in the Church because anyone who really believes you must always follow the 'letter of the law' and who really constantly analyzes their performance to that standard will begin to feel like getting to heaven is real hell.

Actually most people I am refering to are those how rationalize breaking the rules, not living by the true "spirit of the law" for example the letter says: Thou shalt not kill. The spirit says do not be angry with your brother. The letter says: Thou shalt not commit adultery, the spirit says not to look upon a woman to lust after her. The letter says "an eye for an eye" the spirit says love your enemies. So the actual meaning of the "spirit of the law" is something quite different than the context it is sometimes used in. The "spirit of the law" is not some watered down version of the letter of the law, but in reality a higher law than the actual "letter."

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't know about warriors or ghosts, but I saw an Angel once in the Temple (and now I'm married/sealed to her)

What ever. My wife was running through my mind and has nice buns, because she was in heaven or something.

[asbestosman]

Stories about how a child see his / her baby brother / sister even though the parents don't yet realize they're pregnant. The story may be true and even visionary, but I find the stories heavy on sentiment and lacking in application.

The story about the roudy boys who made the rule to whip rulebreakers without his coat on. A hungry boy steals lunch but only has a coat. The boy he stole from is whipped in his place. Now I grant that Jesus suffered for our sins, but even the Book of Mormon says that the just Nephite law cannot punish anyone save the murderer to appease justice except in the case of the atonement because the atonement was infinite. (Alma 34:11-12)

People with Down's syndrome were more valient in the pre-mortal world so they were given that condition to protect them. It may be true is some cases, but it still seems entirely without application. Furthermore, I think it brings up other interesting questions.

Stories about ouiji boards, hauntings, and exorcisms. Maybe it happens sometimes, but I think those tales are more scary entertainment to people than they are faith-building.

[LifeOnaPlate]

What ever. My wife was running through my mind and has nice buns, because she was in heaven or something.

My wife's dad was a crook because he had to steal a bunch of the stars from heaven and put them in my wife's face, or somethign to that extent.

Stories about how a child see his / her baby brother / sister even though the parents don't yet realize they're pregnant. The story may be true and even visionary, but I find the stories heavy on sentiment and lacking in application.

Sacred experiences aren't for e-mail forwards.

The story about the roudy boys who made the rule to whip rulebreakers without his coat on. A hungry boy steals lunch but only has a coat. The boy he stole from is whipped in his place. Now I grant that Jesus suffered for our sins, but even the Book of Mormon says that the just Nephite law cannot punish anyone save the murderer to appease justice except in the case of the atonement because the atonement was infinite. (Alma 34:11-12)

Pres. Faust shared this one in conference, so it has a special spot in my heart.

People with Down's syndrome were more valient in the pre-mortal world so they were given that condition to protect them. It may be true is some cases, but it still seems entirely without application. Furthermore, I think it brings up other interesting questions.

Ah, of course.

Stories about ouiji boards, hauntings, and exorcisms. Maybe it happens sometimes, but I think those tales are more scary entertainment to people than they are faith-building.

Girls camp fodder.

[BCSpace]

The use of "Am I [Are you] my [your] brother's keeper" without first determining the sense (property or salvation) is another one. Answering other than 'No' to either sense is yet another.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

My wife's dad was a crook because he had to steal a bunch of the stars from heaven and put them in my wife's face, or somethign to that extent.

HA, that is good.

[Kate]

I don't think most devout Mormons use the 'nobody's perfect' thing to justify breaking 'major' commandments-they use it so they don't become immobilized by feeling they will never be good enough.

That isn't a myth-human brains don't fully develop until the mid-twenties. Consequently children/youth react more using primitive instincts and are less capable of considering long-term consequences. Therefore parents have to rely on more immediate consequences to actions (for example, Immorality will get you in hell-less effective, immorality will immediately expose you to disease which will kill you not to mention you will be grounded until you are 18-more effective).

Don't you mean Missouri? I don't think I've ever heard anyone say everyone would move to Utah before the 2nd coming.

I haven't heard TBM's suggest there is no hell. More often I hear religious people suggesting hell is reserved for an ever dwindling group of people such as murderers, rapists, etc. as opposed to people who make minor errors and/or believe differently and I think this is a sign of increasing tolerance. Don't you think it's hard for you to get along with someone who insists you are going to hell?

I think that is people trying to make life liveable. I tried to be a 'letter of the law' TBM for many years and it nearly drove me crazy. I think your 'spirit of the law' individuals are much more likely to stay in the Church because anyone who really believes you must always follow the 'letter of the law' and who really constantly analyzes their performance to that standard will begin to feel like getting to heaven is real hell.

I agree!

~Kate

[asbestosman]

Pres. Faust shared this one in conference, so it has a special spot in my heart.

A twinkie now and again can be a nice treat.

Maybe it's just that I tend to take analogies too far.

[LifeOnaPlate]

A twinkie now and again can be a nice treat.

Maybe it's just that I tend to take analogies too far.

The reason I like the parable is because it represents the sinner as someone really in need; the boy is a hungry pitiful lad, not a scheming, evil sinner. The boy who takes his licking for him volunteers to do so, and it was his own lunch that the boy had stolen, IIRC. Either way, I like it alright. Not a fav, but an improvement.

[Scott Lloyd]

Pres. Faust shared this one in conference, so it has a special spot in my heart.

President Faust may have used the story some time. But I heard it first from President Hinckley.