Theological Twinkies

[buraianto]

Anything that makes California look better than Utah is fine with me.

California makes California look better than Utah, right Tsuzuki?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Anyone heard the one about the worldwide epidemic and they need to take the blood of some little kid to save the world? My wife insists she has heard it a lot.

[Doctor Steuss]

Anyone heard the one about the worldwide epidemic and they need to take the blood of some little kid to save the world? My wife insists she has heard it a lot.

Isn't that one of the plot lines for the TV show Heroes?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Isn't that one of the plot lines for the TV show Heroes?

I think it was an episode of sanford and son. Or maybe it was that delightful little "Webster" boy.

[saemo]

I would add these thoughts to a list of doctrines that do not satisfy, at least me:

The scriptures tell us everything God wants us to know.

In prayer, God will only teach us about what we already know, beforehand.

All the work of God regarding our salvation has already been done. God is finished.

People who earn a degree in theology know more about God than people who haven't.

Mormons are Morons.

Mormons aren't really Christians.

Mormons need to be Evangelical Christians to be saved.

I think I'm getting sick now. I'll be back with more later.

These are taught in the LDS church?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

How about Satan controls the water but only when you are on your mission???? Why can't they just say we don't want elders swimming because drowning would be a liability that we don't want to cover. Plus allowing Missionaries to swim would make missionaries called to less than desirable places like Oklahoma or Idaho have some spiritual jealousy of those called to Jamica or Hawaii if those Elders were allowed to swim/surf.

Another one that has annoyed me in the past that was brought up in the past is that you will receive Gross blessing on tithings paid on the gross and "net blessings" on tithing paid on the net.

THis one is very interesting. I think this is most likely the case. I had a compainion swear to me that when he first got set apart he went swimming and he claimed that he almost drowned. I just stood there and gave the quick nod. Oh well.

These are taught in the LDS church?

What do you think?

[Severian]

QUOTE(Severian @ Nov 7 2007, 01:23 PM)

That bodies can live without blood (zombies)

That white shirts are reverential

That God is from Utah so he must demand cultural conformity to its conventions

That archaic language in prayer is desirable

Scott Lloyd: These don't sound so much like pseudo-doctrines as they do ham-handed distortions and caricatures of authentic doctrines or policies.

Sorry for my ham-handed distortions of this authentic mythos.

[cinepro]

How about the one where Brigham Young was speaking and people saw him appear as Joseph Smith? Or the one where there was a cricket infestation that was mitigated by the miraculous appearance of seagulls?

[LifeOnaPlate]

How about the one where Brigham Young was speaking and people saw him appear as Joseph Smith? Or the one where there was a cricket infestation that was mitigated by the miraculous appearance of seagulls?

These weren't twinkies to the people who witnessed them.

[Tsuzuki]

California makes California look better than Utah, right Tsuzuki?

California is just inherently better than everywhere else, with the possible exception of Japan and the parts of Canada and the UK that make my favorite TV programs.

[Paul Ray]

California is just inherently better than everywhere else, with the possible exception of Japan and the parts of Canada and the UK that make my favorite TV programs.

Now THAT'S a twinkie !!!

If California is so great, why are so many people moving up here to Oregon and Washington?

I wouldn't live in California if you paid me, unless you paid me a whole lot, and even then I would still come back to SW Washington.

[cinepro]

These weren't twinkies to the people who witnessed them.

Yeah, except for the following:

While accounts of this purported transformation were not written until the Utah period, retellings in a variety of forms exist in more than two dozen other sources. Eliza Ann Perry Benson reminisced that the Saints arose "from their seats enmass" exclaiming "Joseph has come! He is here!"94 While Eliza Ann Haven Westover, writing in 1918, remembered that "hundreds witnessed the [transfiguration], but not all that were there had that privilege." Apostle Orson Hyde, foremost in exaggeration, did not even arrive in Nauvoo until 13 August, yet he left two elaborate personal reminiscences of the "transfiguration." When Young began to speak that morning, Hyde recalled in 1869, "his words went through me like electricity." Hyde added for special emphasis, "it was not only the voice of Joseph Smith but there were the features, the gestures and even the stature of Joseph before us in the person of Brigham." Eight years later, Hyde declared in general conference that as soon as Young opened his mouth "I heard the voice of Joseph through him."

The best known account of the "transfiguration," thought by many to have been written in 1846, is George Laub's diary reference which reads: "Now when President Young arose to address the congregation his voice was the voice of Bro. Joseph and his face appeared as Josephs face & Should I not have seen his face but herd his voice I should have declared that it was Joseph." Unfortunately this small tan-colored leather diary, which has misled many scholars, is a copy of the original by Laub himself, with additions.

When 8 August 1844 is stripped of emotional overlay, it was the force of Young's personality that swayed the crowd. George Miller, also present at the gathering, would later recall nothing supernatural. Young made a "long and loud harangue," Miller later wrote, for which I "could not see any point in the course [p.344] of his remarks than to overturn Sidney Rigdon's pretensions." Rigdon himself, in an 6 December 1870 letter to Brigham Young, accused him of duplicity:

O vain man.â?¦ Did you suppose that your hypocritical and lying pretene that the spirit of Joseph Smith had [e]ntered into you, was going to prevail with God and man. You knew you lied when you made that pretene. Your ignorance was such that you did not know that there were those living who knew that there never was[,] is[,] nor will be[,] such a metamorphosis on this earth as you wickedly, heaven enduringly pretended had taken place with you.

Apostles Brigham Young, Kimball, Richards, and Woodruff, all of whom made 8 August 1844 entries in their diaries, are silent as to any epiphany. Neither Nauvoo newspaper, the Times and Seasons nor the Nauvoo Neighbor, mentions such wonders. The assertive 1844 and 1845 accounts of Jedediah Grant and Orson Hyde, specifically written to refute Rigdon's succession claims, say nothing about a miraculous event, which, had it occurred, would have been their most compelling evidence.

Most convincing is the fact that on 8 August 1844 the congregation sustained a committee rather than an individual to run the church. They confirmed the collective Quorum of the Twelve as their presiding authority, not Brigham Young. Young's ascent to the presidency was no ceremonial stroll, as could be expected had the transfiguration been a reality. His emergence as the dominant, incontestible Mormon guiding force was not complete until late 1847, after the pioneer trek west. Even then there was some opposition to his singular leadership from within the Twelve itself. Particularly outspoken were Wilford Woodruff, Orson Pratt, and to a lesser degree Amasa Lyman. Woodruff went so far as to say that if three were taken out of the Twelve it would be like "severing the body in 2." If the Twelve surrendered its power "unto [three]," he added, "I sho[ul]d be totally opposed to it." Pratt's viewpoint was that the "head of the church consists of the Apostleship united together."

The paramount question regarding the "transfiguration" is why so many otherwise honorable, pious people retrospectively remembered that they experienced something they probably did not. A rational and comprehensible explanation can perhaps be found in what psychologists call "scenario fulfillment," a phenomenon whereby one sees what one expects, especially retrospectively. Memory is more than direct recollection. It springs from tales harbored in the common fund which may then effect a re-shaping of a community's sense of itself. Joseph Smith had truly ushered in an age of miracles and wonder. Every streaking meteor in the heavens seemed to portend marvels for the Mormon masses. Viewed in the vague afterlight of the Utah period, the fact that Brigham Young had simply bested Sidney Rigdon, toe to toe, man to man, was not definitive enough to nurture and sustain the post-martyrdom Mormon psyche as a myth could. Thus nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints collectively and unwittingly began to interpret as [p.345] miraculous what in 1844 had simply been a turf battle and a changing of the guard. That pious folklore lives on and on by the force of parrot-like iteration and re-iteration in present-day Mormondom. [p.352]

Richard S. Van Wagoner, "Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess", p.344

[The Nehor]

California is just inherently better than everywhere else, with the possible exception of Japan and the parts of Canada and the UK that make my favorite TV programs.

Having left California for Texas I can say there are two reasons to go back: beach and weather.

It would take too long to list the reasons not to go back.

[sean0scott]

I should mention that I'm a mongrel Mormon- living half my life in

California and the colder half in Utah. I wish the mountains here were at the beach there...

Simerelatedly:

I wish people from every state would brag up their Mormons.

"No way! Connecticut Mormons are way more righteous that New Mexico Mormons!" etc.

[cinepro]

These weren't twinkies to the people who witnessed them.

And the following regarding the crickets:

When Brigham Young reported to church members in April 1849 on agricultural progress during the previous year, he did not note the gulls at all.

Most of the early plots were destroyed in the month of May by crickets and a frost which continued occasionally till June while the latter harvest was injured more or less by drought, by frost, which commenced its injuries about October 10, and by the outbreak of cattle. The brethren were not sufficiently numerous to fight the crickets, irrigate the crops, and fence the farm of their extensive plantings; consequently they suffered heavy losses, though the experience of the past year is sufficient to prove that valuable crops may be raised in the valley by attentive and judicious management.

Although little was said about the role of the gulls in saving the crops at the time, the inspirational aspects of the episode were emphasized over time until it came to be regarded as a unique incident in Mormon history. Such an interpretation ignores the fact that gulls and other birds returned regularly each spring to Mormon settlements, devouring crickets, grasshoppers, worms, and other insects. But the episode was providential to the colonists who needed food.

Eugene E. Campbell, "Establishing Zion: The Mormon Church

in the American West, 1847-1869", p.30

Judging from contemporary accounts and subsequent harvests, it seems the coming of the seagulls was a helpful and natural supplement to the pioneer's efforts to save the crops from crickets and frost, but not necessarily unnatural, supernatural or "miraculous".

But hey, one man's Twinkie is another's porterhouse steak (or USDA Whole Milk), so to each their own.

[Tsuzuki]

If California is so great, why are so many people moving up here to Oregon and Washington?

They are part of the advanced invasion force under the banner of Emperor Norton III.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yeah, except for the following:

Apostles Brigham Young, Kimball, Richards, and Woodruff, all of whom made 8 August 1844 entries in their diaries, are silent as to any epiphany. Neither Nauvoo newspaper, the Times and Seasons nor the Nauvoo Neighbor, mentions such wonders. The assertive 1844 and 1845 accounts of Jedediah Grant and Orson Hyde, specifically written to refute Rigdon's succession claims, say nothing about a miraculous event, which, had it occurred, would have been their most compelling evidence.

Most convincing is the fact that on 8 August 1844 the congregation sustained a committee rather than an individual to run the church. They confirmed the collective Quorum of the Twelve as their presiding authority, not Brigham Young. Young's ascent to the presidency was no ceremonial stroll, as could be expected had the transfiguration been a reality. His emergence as the dominant, incontestible Mormon guiding force was not complete until late 1847, after the pioneer trek west. Even then there was some opposition to his singular leadership from within the Twelve itself. Particularly outspoken were Wilford Woodruff, Orson Pratt, and to a lesser degree Amasa Lyman. Woodruff went so far as to say that if three were taken out of the Twelve it would be like "severing the body in 2." If the Twelve surrendered its power "unto [three]," he added, "I sho[ul]d be totally opposed to it." Pratt's viewpoint was that the "head of the church consists of the Apostleship united together."

The paramount question regarding the "transfiguration" is why so many otherwise honorable, pious people retrospectively remembered that they experienced something they probably did not. A rational and comprehensible explanation can perhaps be found in what psychologists call "scenario fulfillment," a phenomenon whereby one sees what one expects, especially retrospectively. Memory is more than direct recollection. It springs from tales harbored in the common fund which may then effect a re-shaping of a community's sense of itself. Joseph Smith had truly ushered in an age of miracles and wonder. Every streaking meteor in the heavens seemed to portend marvels for the Mormon masses. Viewed in the vague afterlight of the Utah period, the fact that Brigham Young had simply bested Sidney Rigdon, toe to toe, man to man, was not definitive enough to nurture and sustain the post-martyrdom Mormon psyche as a myth could. Thus nineteenth-century Latter-day Saints collectively and unwittingly began to interpret as [p.345] miraculous what in 1844 had simply been a turf battle and a changing of the guard. That pious folklore lives on and on by the force of parrot-like iteration and re-iteration in present-day Mormondom. [p.352]

Richard S. Van Wagoner, "Sidney Rigdon: A Portrait of Religious Excess", p.344

Awesome, I found a very different tale in a BYU Studies I purchased just this week. Oops. I guess I ought to just take your word for it.

Did no apostles mention the transfiguration? I think you know better.

But hey, one man's Twinkie is another's porterhouse steak (or USDA Whole Milk), so to each their own.

Hey, one man's cynicism is completely boring. But hey.

[Scott Lloyd]

Judging from contemporary accounts and subsequent harvests, it seems the coming of the seagulls was a helpful and natural supplement to the pioneer's efforts to save the crops from crickets and frost, but not necessarily unnatural, supernatural or "miraculous".

And this is supposed to disillusion us or undermine our faith in the power of prayer how, exactly?

Where in the doctrines of the Church is it written that answers to prayers can never come about through ostensibly "natural" means?

[Sargon]

I hope noone already said it:

Pseudo-doctrine #86: Because the brethren are clean-shaven all priesthood holders should be.

A hardcore bearded high priest:

Keep the images clean please ~Mods

[saemo]

I hope noone already said it:

Pseudo-doctrine #86: Because the brethren are clean-shaven all priesthood holders should be.

A hardcore bearded high priest:

Keep the images clean please ~Mods

Maybe it's just me, but that is rather offensive to my sacred notion of Christ.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I hope noone already said it:

Pseudo-doctrine #86: Because the brethren are clean-shaven all priesthood holders should be.

A hardcore bearded high priest:

Is that how it happened?? Lol. Oh I wouldnt even call this a twinkie, It ruins the name oif it all. I really dislike the whole no beard thing. Note I dont like facial hair on me, but I have had family critisied for their beard when the attended BYU Idaho. Like he was commiting some sin. Give me a break.

Edit: for the image.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I think the majority of contemporary Christological art is Twinkie material.

[Doctor Steuss]

I think the majority of contemporary Christological art is twinkie fodder.

What's wrong with the Anglo-Saxon woman with a beard that is usually painted? I think it's highly accurate.

[LifeOnaPlate]

What's wrong with the Anglo-Saxon woman with a beard that is usually painted? I think it's highly accurate.

So excellently European!

[Scott Lloyd]

Maybe it's just me, but that is rather offensive to my sacred notion of Christ.

Yeah. Me too. I don't often report posts, but this is one.