Theological Twinkies

[Tsuzuki]

"I was in the Church Office Building elevator. President/Elder [fill in the blank] got on the

elevator with me. I was so shocked. He looked at me and said, 'If you knew what

I knew, you would [fill in the blank...do your genealogy, get your food storage, etc.].'"

Bernard

I was in the Church Office Building elevator. President Steuss got on the elevator with me. I was so shocked. He looked at me and said, "If you knew what I knew, you would go insane."

[Sargon]

Yeah. Me too. I don't often report posts, but this is one.

Sorry folks. I thought the picture was cool. I like the thought of a masculine looking Jesus as opposed to the feminine dainty Jesus of the Renaissance.

I'll be more careful.

Sargon

[Sargon]

Pseudo-doctrine #88: Taking pictures or filming the sacrament meeting room is a sin.

Sargon

[Abulafia]

FYI, the story has been embellished with the retelling but it is based upon truthful happenstances. I myself experienced something similar. I was just visiting another Church, minding my own business with a broken bone. They brought me up to the front to try to prove to me that I was in the wrong Church. The guy anointed me with some oil and blessed me and the bone was healed. I was astounded but could not sleep for a couple days afterward. I had with me a horrible feeling all during that time from the "healing" afterward. I finally asked the Lord to release me from it and got a blessing from a priesthood leader. As soon as I did the bone fell loose again and never did heal right.

Moral of the stories? Not every one of these kinds of stories is necessarily a theological twinkie but they all certainly can be made into one with considerable ease.

Okay...so this story is supposed to teach what exactly? Psychologically I could see why you would be uncomfortable with a 'healing' from another church that you believed to be false, but if true, it really says something that the 'other church' had to power to heal, whereas your own priesthood holders didn't...

Are you trying to say that 'healings' done by other churches are false healings because they are performed by the power of the 'adversary' for instance? Or are you saying that actually it was God's will that you should always have an arm that 'never did heal right', or was the fact that it never healed right down to the initial healing rather than the failure of your own church to perform the same thing???

Wierd......

Mary

[Lachoneus]

Pseudo-doctrine #88: Taking pictures or filming the sacrament meeting room is a sin.

"Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted." (1 Church Handbook of Instructions 183 (2006))

[MormonMason]

Okay...so this story is supposed to teach what exactly? Psychologically I could see why you would be uncomfortable with a 'healing' from another church that you believed to be false, but if true, it really says something that the 'other church' had to power to heal, whereas your own priesthood holders didn't...

Are you trying to say that 'healings' done by other churches are false healings because they are performed by the power of the 'adversary' for instance? Or are you saying that actually it was God's will that you should always have an arm that 'never did heal right', or was the fact that it never healed right down to the initial healing rather than the failure of your own church to perform the same thing???

Wierd......

Mary

No, actually it was not an arm but what bone it is is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make above, that point being that some stories have as their basis truth and should not always be discounted just because they sound fantastic.

I cannot speak to all churches because I have not visited all of them. I do know what was felt the entire time and I do know that that particular church would get up and everybody would start getting up and speaking tongues and such, which practice is so contrary to the Bible (that teaches that no more than two or three at most should take turns speaking and letting one interpret in order that the spirit of confusion did not exist there; and if it is the spirit of confusion, it is not of God) that there is no way that the Spirit of God was in there at that time. The same feeling was upon me after their healing ceremony for a couple days. I was not bothered about the healing itself. I sort of thought it was cool and did reflect on it from time to time. But, I could not deny the feeling I experienced those days. I know the difference between the Spirit of God and the spirit of the devil. I know both because I personally have experienced both--directly and firsthand. Would that I could tell you more.

As to the reason why the bone did not heal right? I forgot and left that part out in my telling above. I prayed that it would not heal right as a reminder of certain things and so that I could have something I could use as a teaching tool for later times. It is an easy matter to claim something and use it for teaching if there is no evidence of it. Additionally, I have had many blessings and have received true healings from such blessings, and those with no bad feelings. However, there are some things that are a thorn in the flesh that the Lord has seen fit with which to afflict me. I would fill you in on all the details and things perhaps might make a bit more sense to you, but then I would lose somewhat the degree of anonymity I wish to have at this time.

[Abulafia]

Mormonmason,

Thanks for your response. I respect your desire for privacy. I can understand why you would feel bad about getting a healing from another church. Perhaps feelings of disloyalty, unfamiliarity etc. Whether those feelings come from God or your own prejudices would be another question, I'm sure that an Evangelical or Jehovah Witness might feel similar feelings if they were to give any credence to the possibility that God might work just as well with Mormons for instance. (which I'm sure God does..)

Maybe you are being too harsh on them though? I'm not so keen culturally on the very charismatic services, but there is scriptoral precedent for speaking in tongues and miraculous healings. If people there are just trying to have faith, hope and follow Christian principles in their own particular way, then I can't see why God wouldn't be with them. If God only works with fully baptised and paid up members of the LDS church then God walks a very narrow path indeed. That's just my opinion of course.

Mary

[Sargon]

"Taking photographs or making video recordings in chapels is not permitted." (1 Church Handbook of Instructions 183 (2006))

Right, but is it a sin? We are also not supposed to show Disney movies in nursery, is it a sin to do so?

Can I show commercial audiovisual products at Church functions? Generally not. Church members should not violate warnings and restrictions placed on commercial audiovisual products.

Church Handbook of Instructions: Book 1, 2006 pg 176

We should also ask if handbook instructions count as doctrine.

Sargon

[MormonMason]

Mormonmason,

Thanks for your response. I respect your desire for privacy. I can understand why you would feel bad about getting a healing from another church. Perhaps feelings of disloyalty, unfamiliarity etc. Whether those feelings come from God or your own prejudices would be another question, I'm sure that an Evangelical or Jehovah Witness might feel similar feelings if they were to give any credence to the possibility that God might work just as well with Mormons for instance. (which I'm sure God does..)

I had no feelings of disloyalty and had no bad feelings about receiving a "healing" from another church group. My feelings of uncertainty had nothing to do with what I was feeling long before anyone came up behind me to bring me up for a healing. No, the feeling that was there was something akin to what I often felt in my youth when hanging out with the local satanists, some of whom I considered friends but with whom I had a falling out early on for obvious reasons.

Maybe you are being too harsh on them though? I'm not so keen culturally on the very charismatic services, but there is scriptoral precedent for speaking in tongues and miraculous healings. If people there are just trying to have faith, hope and follow Christian principles in their own particular way, then I can't see why God wouldn't be with them. If God only works with fully baptised and paid up members of the LDS church then God walks a very narrow path indeed. That's just my opinion of course.

While there is scriptural precedent for healings and for speaking in tongues, the Bible, for example, states that it must be done in order or it is not of God. This particular meeting was not in accordance with the Bible in this regard. Something similar in another meeting was of interest. A friend of mine once visited one of these evangelical churches on his mission. He had been studying Old English literature before he left and was conversant with the language. He then went on a mission to France.

One day, between appointments, he and his companion visited the evangelical church in question and was surprised to watch the entire congregation stand up and begin speaking in tongues, in spite of the Biblical injunction of no more than two or three a most and one interpreting in order to be done in order. My friend was quite surprised at what he heard there that day. He never set foot in another one of those churches again because of what he clearly heard but which none of the French-speaking worshippers knew--they were cursing and swearing like pirates, cursing God and blessing and praising Satan in Old English! Another heard something similar in an old dialect of Japanese. This man also will not set foot in charismatic churches again, and he is an evangelical!

In yet another case in another church here in the United States, the people were just spouting off nonsense but really thought they were speaking in tongues and interpreting what was said. The truth? A missionary's (I knew this one personally as well) brother returned home from his mission in Portugal, being fluent in Portuguese. He met a wonderful girl and they began dating. Trouble was, she was an evangelical and he was, of course, LDS. He and she would debate which church was right and so forth. So, they began attending each others' church in hopes of showing the truth to each other. The final time he visited hers, watching as they stood up and one-by-one would "speak in tongues" and one would interpret.

Finally, he had had enough and stood up himself and began spouting off stuff in Portuguese. No one there knew what he was saying and his own girlfriend was impressed that he now knew the truth. As expected, a guy stood up and says, "I know what he said! He praised God!" As soon as that happened, he shot back, "No it isn't what I said. What I said was that this is a bunch of falsehood and that there is no Spirit of God here. And, I said it in Portuguese, which is not an unknown tongue." It was quite a disruption and I do not recommend that people go and do such things at these sorts of meetings. But, needless to say, his girlfriend never returned to that church and not too long afterward they were marred in the temple.

There are many of these ancedotal stories I could tell as they have been told to me by those who experienced them or even as I myself have experienced them. I could tell you about happenstances at various churches that would make your skin crawl but will forbear for now. Does that mean that all churches are of the devil or that all of them fake things of the Spirit? I would not presume to claim so. I can only speak of what I and others have experienced in our lifetimes. Each case would have to be tested individually.

In any case, the above is one of those things where you just had to be there to fully understand.

[Abulafia]

Mormon Mason, I'm trying to not to be too cynical here, but 'old English'....

I'm from the UK....'old English'????

Mary

(Okay, I've just reflected a bit....old english...isn't just 'ye olde ale house' type of thing, but can cover Anglo-saxon, Latin influence (through but not restricted to the Roman invasion, and it being the language of the Holy Catholic Church and thus the clergy), Danish influence (through the vikings), French influence, (through the Normans) and of course the original but probably varied language of the celts.)

I don't know too many people (even many of my old tutors) who were that conversant in anglo-saxon for instance, except to be able to translate the anglo-saxon chronicles and so on.

This sounds very dubious...sorry... If he was Welsh then yes...Welsh is still pretty widely spoken in certain parts of Wales, and there might be one or two Cornish people that can still speak their own language??

[MormonMason]

Mormon Mason, I'm trying to not to be too cynical here, but 'old English'....

I'm from the UK....'old English'????

Mary

No, you do not speak Old English there. You may think you do but you don't. Want to get a taste of the differences between what you speak and what is Old English? Get hold of an original version of Beowulf and try reading it right off the bat. It would take you some time to get it and you would have to learn how to pronounce it as the pronunciation differs from today. Here is the first page of Beowulf in the original script and tongue to get you started.

Be cynical if you wish. It is your choice. But, I can only report what I was told by the person who experienced it as well as my own personal experiences.

[Abulafia]

It's okay Mormon Mason, I specialised in Anglo Saxon History at College...!

Here's the Lords Prayer... (I just wasn't sure what 'you' meant by Olde English!!)

Line Original Translation

[1] F

[Abulafia]

Just to add Mormon Mason (whilst trying to be respectful of your beliefs) that my cynicism comes from knowing one or two college tutors who learned Anglo Saxon but who wouldn't have professed despite their many years studying the subject to have been fluent whilst listening to it. That's all. I wouldn't think that there are many young missionary under-graduates who could have done it.

Mary (but of course maybe I'm wrong).

[Nofear]

When the Prophet Speaks, Is the Thinking Done?

This one I have not heard but actually one that may be considered simular is true:Not exactly the same, but a simular thought.

The not exactly same is critical:

The leaflet â?¦ was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure ... that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof.

George Albert Smith (reference)

[Nofear]

We should also ask if handbook instructions count as doctrine.

It is the practicing guidelines of the Church. Its instructions supersede instructions given in the Doctrine and Covenants.

I personally heard this while in the MTC. The "center" of the Church was moving from Church Headquarter's in Salt Lake City to Provo. The sentiment was that the influence, instruction, and guidance of the Church would start to flow from Provo.

[Hammer]

"I was in the Church Office Building elevator. President/Elder [fill in the blank] got on the

elevator with me. I was so shocked. He looked at me and said, 'If you knew what

I knew, you would [fill in the blank...do your genealogy, get your food storage, etc.].'"

Bernard

Well I am no GA and I am not in an elevator (at least if I can help it) but I say if you knew what I knew for this whole last year, you would have already gotten your food storage and yourself out of debt-- but now it is too late.

[rameumptom]

Well I am no GA and I am not in an elevator (at least if I can help it) but I say if you knew what I knew for this whole last year, you would have already gotten your food storage and yourself out of debt-- but now it is too late.

Just a few years ago, Pres Hinckley gave a money management lesson in General Priesthood meeting. In it, he discussed the story of Joseph and Pharaoh and the 7 years of plenty/famine. While he said he was not prophesying a Great Depression, he was concerned for the financial safety of Americans and America. He told us to get out of debt, pay off our houses (he mentioned that Pres Faust had paid off his house and whistled while he worked because of it), and get our food storage, among other things.

We have had a very prosperous time in the 1990s. Why we should think that good times should continue on forever, when Americans are spending worse than drunken sailors, is beyond me. Drunken sailors stop spending when the money runs out. Pres Bush just asked to raise our national debt ceiling to $9 Trillion dollars.

So, I'd say we're heading for some very tough times soon down the road. We're broke, China is buying up America and selling us dangerous toys, and our high paying jobs are going overseas. If you aren't out of debt and listening to the prophets by now, it may be getting a little late to fully prepare. But at least we can begin to prepare, even now. Keep Christmas cheap, and spend the money to pay off current debts, including the house, and to buy food storage.

Even if we don't hit a Great Depression, the jobs we are losing overseas will impact many Americans, and it only helps to have no debt and a basement of food, when you are seeking a new job.

[Lightbearer]

When the Prophet Speaks, Is the Thinking Done?The not exactly same is critical:

So in other words Anti-Mormons and Apostates are still harping on a statement made over 60 years ago (long before coorelation) and was dissallowed by the First Presidency? I call that grasping at straws...or straw men.

[LifeOnaPlate]

The lead toys will be the end of us all.

[Sargon]

It is the practicing guidelines of the Church. Its instructions supersede instructions given in the Doctrine and Covenants.

I personally heard this while in the MTC. The "center" of the Church was moving from Church Headquarter's in Salt Lake City to Provo. The sentiment was that the influence, instruction, and guidance of the Church would start to flow from Provo.

This entire post sounds like one bit Twinkie Doctrine to me. It was said in the MTC so it must be true. Oh boy if that was the way things were!!

Sargon

[rameumptom]

That G-d helps find car keys.

Interesting story on this one: years ago, my best friend was often asking me questions about the Church. One night, in his second job, he couldn't find his car keys, and so he said, "If the LDS Church is true, let my keys be right there..." and pointed over to a place he'd looked in before. There were his keys. His next statement was, "that's not funny, God."

He is now a ward clerk....

So, perhaps it isn't entirely a twinkie. At least not in my case.

[asbestosman]

My friend was quite surprised at what he heard there that day. He never set foot in another one of those churches again because of what he clearly heard but which none of the French-speaking worshippers knew--they were cursing and swearing like pirates, cursing God and blessing and praising Satan in Old English! Another heard something similar in an old dialect of Japanese. This man also will not set foot in charismatic churches again, and he is an evangelical!

I don't doubt your friend's sincerity on this point. However, I do wonder about his interpretation. I had an interesting experience with French-speaking companion. I was speaking English when suddenly he thought I was cursing in French. I don't remember what it is I said though.

I also happen to know that many missionaries mistakenly curse when the speak Dutch with a bit of English. I myself told an investigator women to give up her cancer sticks. Cancer, in Dutch, is also the equivalent of the f-word. I told her to throw away her ___ing sticks!

Another common problem in Dutch is when missionaries will ask to use a pick to play a guitar. Unfortunately in Dutch, the pick has a very vulgar meaning (and I forget what the Dutch word for guitar pick is). Another common mistake relates to the Dutch word for Holy Ghost. If you misprounance it a bit, it becomes a rather vulgar way to rever to the Spirit. Another common problem is with mispronouncing the words for "fun", "sliced bread", and "strawberries".

My brother has fun speaking Haitian Creole to us. He says (not that I can spell it right) "Fawk ewe, sawntay myass" which sounds bad but means "you must smell my foot odor". My favorite double-dutchism is "Fawk fool ik me dik" (Vaak voel ik me dik) which sounds terrible but only means "I often feel (that I'm) fat".

Anyhow, enough language. I'm sure your friend knows Old English better than I do. I just think it is quite easy to have a mistaken impression with language.

Also, IMO even many true stories count as twinkies to me in that those stories do not really teach core doctrine or build faith in the appropriate ways. I'm all for sharing personal experiences. I just don't much care for the ones that either have no obvious tie in to the core gospel message (stories of evil spirits), those that seem to spread animosity for other religions / people, and those which are heavily sentimental, frequently used, and easy to misunderstand (or difficult to properly apply).

[Nofear]

This entire post sounds like one bit Twinkie Doctrine to me. It was said in the MTC so it must be true. Oh boy if that was the way things were!!

Provo = center = hogwash. All kinds of other fun things I "learned" in the MTC (fortunately I was big enough a boy by then I didn't believe it even then).

This statement: "[The Church Handbook of Instructions are] the practicing guidelines of the Church. Its instructions supersede instructions given in the Doctrine and Covenants." is correct and accurate. It is not a twinkie.

Sorry for the confusion. I've noticed that subsequent posts are being tacked onto one's previous post.

[Sargon]

This statement: "[The Church Handbook of Instructions are] the practicing guidelines of the Church. Its instructions supersede instructions given in the Doctrine and Covenants." is correct and accurate. It is not a twinkie.

Hey Nofear. I haven't done any research into this particular subject, but obvoiusly you have. Can you provide me some sort of reference so I can read up on this?

Thanks.

Sargon

[Nofear]

Hey Nofear. I haven't done any research into this particular subject, but obvoiusly you have. Can you provide me some sort of reference so I can read up on this?

Research? Not so much. Living Prophet > Scripture.

But I can give an example. D&C 42:24-26 states that a repeat adulterer should not be forgiven but excommunicated. This is not a necessary consequence as defined by the Church Discipline section. It would not be difficult for many of us to find an anecdotal counter-example to the instructions given by D&C 42:26.

There aren't many other examples. Church organization, disciplinary councils, and other things have changed some from what was outlined by the D&C.