Dallin Oaks

[Daniel Peterson]

Of course life is full of all sorts of stuff that we want to do but have no time to do. We juggle. But how can you say the Church is not responsible for taking a big chunk of it by teaching us to never say no to a calling and then having a lay church that requires a whole lot of time.

I didn't say that.

I said that there are lots of good things that ought to be done. The Church requires a lot of time, yes. I happen to think that counseling with rape victims and teaching small children and doing service projects and helping with Scout troops and producing welfare materials and similar things are all quite good things.

Some people who criticize the Church for occupying so much of our time really object to the idea -- if they were honest with themselves -- of things that interfere with eating out, going to movies, attending football games, vegging, hanging out at concerts, etc. All of these are more or less good things, but there is a lot of volunteer service to be given, whether in or out of the Church, and it will necessarily interfere with one's self-indulgences. That's life.

I am not really all the upset about this. I just think the Church needs to understand it takes a lot of its members time especially a member that serves in busy callings. And often it is time taken from the family.

I think the Church does understand that. In fact, I'd be willing to venture the guess that General Authorities, of all people, understand that exceptionally well.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I am not really all the upset about this. I just think the Church needs to understand it takes a lot of its members time especially a member that serves in busy callings. And often it is time taken from the family.

If I recall correctly, Elder Oaks addressed this concern specifically.

[Hammer]

Team sports are a waste of time, especially Football.

I have to agree and I was on the football team of both highschool and college. I have the broken up body to prove it.

Down with sports! They are really NOTsporting these days anyway. They encourage a form of noxious competitive practice that is fast turning this world upside down.

[why me]

How often is it really ok to say no? some say not but it is frowned upon. Can a tired bishop really feel good about asking for a release? Guilt is heavy in this area for most active members.

A tired bishop should be the first one to ask for a release. A tired bishop cannot be that effective. We are only human beings on a spiritual journey. There is nothing wrong with asking to be released if a person feels a need to do so.

And why should a member feel guilty? To feel guilty about such a thing is also feeling guilty for being human.

[Hammer]

How often is it really ok to say no? some say not but it is frowned upon. Can a tired bishop really feel good about asking for a release? Guilt is heavy in this area for most active members.

We are expected to listen to personal revelation. The Lord taught we were not to run faster than we were able. What does that mean?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Yep, looksl ike Elder Oaks addressed your concern, and agreed with you, and offered suggestions about it, so I am unclear on why you are complaining about it rather than reading his entire address and finding that he already mentioned these things:

Church leaders should be aware that Church meetings and activities can become too complex and burdensome if a ward or a stake tries to have the membership do everything that is good and possible in our numerous Church programs. Priorities are needed there also.

He quoted L. Tom Perry saying that often, Church programs and activities need to be "simplified." He then quoted M. Russell Ballard saying essentially the same thing; that Church activities, etc. need to be simplified, not embellished. Save the time and resources for the "best" things, instead.

He gives next a specific charge to Church leaders:

Stake presidencies and bishoprics need to exercise their authority to weed out the excessive and ineffective busyness that is sometimes required of the members of their stakes or wards. Church programs should focus on what is best (most effective) in achieving their assigned purposes without unduly infringing on the time families need for their "divinely appointed duties."

He then hints, at least in my opinion, that there may some change in the future in regards to the length of Church meetings, closing his section on Church activity and the use of time thusly:

But here is a caution for families. Suppose Church leaders reduce the time required by Church meetings and activities in order to increase the time available for families to be together. This will not achieve its intended purpose unless individual family membersâ??especially parentsâ??vigorously act to increase family togetherness and one-on-one time. Team sports and technology toys like video games and the Internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth. Surfing the Internet is not better than serving the Lord or strengthening the family. Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments. Some young people are amusing themselves to deathâ??spiritual death.

Some uses of individual and family time are better, and others are best. We have to forego some good things in order to choose others that are better or best because they develop faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and strengthen our families.

The whole address can be read here.

[Teancum]

I didn't say that.

I said that there are lots of good things that ought to be done. The Church requires a lot of time, yes. I happen to think that counseling with rape victims and teaching small children and doing service projects and helping with Scout troops and producing welfare materials and similar things are all quite good things.

Some people who criticize the Church for occupying so much of our time really object to the idea -- if they were honest with themselves -- of things that interfere with eating out, going to movies, attending football games, vegging, hanging out at concerts, etc. All of these are more or less good things, but there is a lot of volunteer service to be given, whether in or out of the Church, and it will necessarily interfere with one's self-indulgences. That's life.

I think the Church does understand that. In fact, I'd be willing to venture the guess that General Authorities, of all people, understand that exceptionally well.

As mentioned above and to qualify a bit, I think ultimately opportunities to serve are a good thing and stretch us to do things we normally wouldn't do. However, I have noticed, at least where I live that about 7-10 families end up being the back bone of a ward. They cycle in and out from one heavy calling to another and sometimes back in. It can wear one out. At times I have thought a full time clergy might really be a good thing.

I once read a paper by Eugene Englund that proposed that the ward setting it a place that in a way forces us into Christian service opportunities that we would never, for at least most of us, do or find any other way. On top of that is often puts side by side with those we probably would never choose to associate with in any other way. I look at my business associates and I think that they really do not have a clue to what types of human service has come my way through Church callings and they really have not scratched the surfacce of what it is to do for others.

So over all it is a good thing and maybe had I had all those hours of free time over the past 26 years I would have frittered it away. But I do feel sad on the same side that so much has been spent away from my family

[LifeOnaPlate]

In short, far from dropping the ball, I believe Elder Oaks hit the nail on the head.

So over all it is a good thing and maybe had I had all those hours of free time over the past 26 years I would have frittered it away. But I do feel sad on the same side that so much has been spent away from my family

From the excerpts I quoted above, it looks like Elder Oaks would agree with you. Far from complaining about the talk, you and I should be exultant that it was given as it was, and at a great time for us all to hear.

[Teancum]

In short, far from dropping the ball, I believe Elder Oaks hit the nail on the head.

From the excerpts I quoted above, it looks like Elder Oaks would agree with you. Far from complaining about the talk, you and I should be exultant that it was given as it was, and at a great time for us all to hear.

well I hope I was not complaining. I was just discussing this on board called Mormon Apologetics and DISCUSSION board.

[LifeOnaPlate]

well I hope I was not complaining. I was just discussing this on board called Mormon Apologetics and DISCUSSION board.

Your discussion reflects a lack of understanding of the subject material, as I pointed out in the post above including quotes from the address. I was under the impression you disagreed with elder Oaks on his talk, that perhaps you thought it a little hypocritical of him to talk about the usage of time when the Church takes up so much of it.

Perhaps I read you all wrong, but I believe that was the gist of your discussion.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Upon further review of the thread you spent some time, in your own words, whining a little about all the extra time your callings took, and that time was taken away from your family. As I said above, I would expect someone in your condition to greet this talk with applause rather than further explanation about how much time you have spent doing things in the past. I mean no disrespect, I just say this thread baffles me based on the comments made in it in regards to the actual conference address.

[Teancum]

Your discussion reflects a lack of understanding of the subject material, as I pointed out in the post above including quotes from the address. I was under the impression you disagreed with elder Oaks on his talk, that perhaps you thought it a little hypocritical of him to talk about the usage of time when the Church takes up so much of it.

Perhaps I read you all wrong, but I believe that was the gist of your discussion.

I hardly misunderstood the subject materials.

Thanks

[LifeOnaPlate]

I hardly misunderstood the subject materials.

Thanks

Nowhere do I see you saying "Elder Oaks is right about such-and-such."

Based on your comments in this thread, am I to understand you disagree with what E. Oaks said in the address or not?

[katherine the great]

I kind of wondered while listening to Elder Oaks' talk if there may be some kind of meeting schedule change on the horizon and we're being preparing for it.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I kind of wondered while listening to Elder Oaks' talk if there may be some kind of meeting schedule change on the horizon and we're being preparing for it.

Ditto

[Anijen]

Ditto

Three three hour blocks on non cushioned pews with no AC, and you will like it.

[mledbetter]

Just my two cents worth:

Bro. Oaks is absolutely correct in regards to sports. As a culture, we are way too obsessed with team sports. Go to India, or China, or even Europe, and the people who are the popular kids in school are the ones who won the math prize, the science fair, etc. Here, it's the football jock. It's no wonder they are killing us the the fields of science and math. When it comes to these subjects, our schools are seriously lacking.

I have a huge high school near my house. It was given a grant by some millionaire family. I started going there to run on the track to practice my split times in preparing for a marathon. This school has 3 (THREE!!!) football fields - one field has the fake turf, baseball field, softball field, and the track is made of that synthetic shock absorbing stuff. They also have a huge lot with a fancy tower so the marching band can practice. However, this lot has been taken up by the trailers that are acting as classrooms. It's a freaking joke the money this school has spent on their athletic programs while the regular students are in cramped trailer classrooms. Of course, this is the south, where football is literally their god. Probably why I see these kids still practicing when I get to the track at around 7 p.m. to run. I can't imagine they have much time for homework in the evening.

Well said, Bro. Oaks!!!

[The Nehor]

Just my two cents worth:

Bro. Oaks is absolutely correct in regards to sports. As a culture, we are way too obsessed with team sports. Go to India, or China, or even Europe, and the people who are the popular kids in school are the ones who won the math prize, the science fair, etc. Here, it's the football jock. It's no wonder they are killing us the the fields of science and math. When it comes to these subjects, our schools are seriously lacking.

I have a huge high school near my house. It was given a grant by some millionaire family. I started going there to run on the track to practice my split times in preparing for a marathon. This school has 3 (THREE!!!) football fields - one field has the fake turf, baseball field, softball field, and the track is made of that synthetic shock absorbing stuff. They also have a huge lot with a fancy tower so the marching band can practice. However, this lot has been taken up by the trailers that are acting as classrooms. It's a freaking joke the money this school has spent on their athletic programs while the regular students are in cramped trailer classrooms. Of course, this is the south, where football is literally their god. Probably why I see these kids still practicing when I get to the track at around 7 p.m. to run. I can't imagine they have much time for homework in the evening.

Well said, Bro. Oaks!!!

You've never seen a European soccer riot have you?

While not opposed to kids playing sports I find competitions and especially professional sports ridiculous. The NFL, the NBA, the NHL all make a ton of money off of people who want to sit and watch other people play games. They even experience joy and disappointment based on how people they've never met play. What does the fastest runner or the highest jumper or the strongest man really contribute to the world to make them worthy of praise or huge amounts of money?

In Europe at least a lot more soccer fans actually get out on the field and play themselves.

The more violent sports in my opinion are our Circus Maximus. People sacrificing their health for the cheers of the masses. All we did was get rid of the Lions. Yeah us.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Theatremania or whatever that word is.

[Hoops22]

That's fine. Has anybody said otherwise?

Tough to do if the child is in church and not on the field.

[grannysue]

I don't necessarily think he was degrading sports so much as pointing out that it's very easy to get "caught up" in the suburban rat race of automatically putting your kid in every sport along with his friends-and before you know it, these activities end up running your household.

This jives with my take on what Elder Oaks was saying. I didn't find his talk offensive in the least. In fact, reading some of the preceding posts almost made me wonder if he'd given two talks: the one I heard and the one certain irate posters listened to. In my view, the "sports" portion of the talk simply expressed concern about the practice of taking sports or any other activity to the extreme. Nothing was said against normal involvement in organized sports. Hey, Mormons (general authorities included!) LOVE sports.

Also, Elder Oaks never said not to do the things that qualify as "better" or "good." He merely said not to do them to the detriment of things that are "best." (And by the way, deciding prayerfully what is "better" or "best" for any given child is still up to the parents, because that is their stewardship.) The object is to achieve balance so that children are getting a healthy mix of the "good," "better," and "best" things parents feel are important.

One thing all church leaders learn over the years is that families are as unique as their needs. There's no way Elder Oaks is trying to stop parents from continuing to pray for personal revelation about what is best for their families, nor does he want them to stop acting upon the answers they receive. He's just offering some ideas to take into account as they make their decisions. The "good, better, best" thing is no more than a framework to use in establishing priorities. The specific examples he uses to show how that framework functions are just that, examples. Parents still get to decide...to label their own stuff as "good," "better," or "best" and hang it where they please.

Finally, on the subject of the time we devote to church service: One of the things I love most about our church is that we are the ones who make it go, through our callings. Laboring together as a team to make things happen helps us evolve into a loving, supportive community. As we do so, the ward becomes an extended family, and being a working part of it nurtures us and our children. That's been my experience, anyway.

It seems to me that the whole thing comes down to this. It's up to us to make choices, and it's up to us to set boundaries. If we are overextended, there's no relief in blaming our accompanying angst on either Elder Oaks; the Church; or the career, leisure, and service-related opportunities available to us. Rather, we should decide what is "good," "better," and "best" for us and make whatever adjustments are necessary.

It's called empowerment, folks!

[Teancum]

Upon further review of the thread you spent some time, in your own words, whining a little about all the extra time your callings took, and that time was taken away from your family. As I said above, I would expect someone in your condition to greet this talk with applause rather than further explanation about how much time you have spent doing things in the past. I mean no disrespect, I just say this thread baffles me based on the comments made in it in regards to the actual conference address.

Whining huh? Do you always greet disagreement with your view with such comments?

Look if one does not take the talk in general terms and selectively apply it it could be a bit stressful. My 12 year old daughter asked me at the end of it if she had to give up the swim team because she had missed a few nights of youth activities.

That is it. I have heard leaders for years caution imposition on members time. In reality callings take a certain level of commitment and cannot be parred back all that much.

[Teancum]

Nowhere do I see you saying "Elder Oaks is right about such-and-such."

Based on your comments in this thread, am I to understand you disagree with what E. Oaks said in the address or not?

I think Elder Oaks we right on about being careful about where you spend time. I think his comments about kids missing youth activities due to other activities could be easily misconstrued and would have been better left out. I think equating teams sports or soccer to video games was a bit different. I think his comments about leaders being careful is very good but I think that the mere fact that many Church callings take a substantive amount of time is not considered in this. It seems that many things were said to not be good or best use of time were mentioned but a major church calling would sort of be off limits. If we are talking about spending time with family then we should realize that the Church is one of the time takers. What solutions were offered for that other then cautioning leaders to be careful with how much they schedule.

Maybe you could share some ideas about Church callings, share what callings you have held and let us know if you have had challenges balancing church and family time. I know I have.

[Deborah]

Geeeze Louize. No wonder the church tries to be so careful with what is in lesson manuals and what the missionaries teach. Look at the controversy over one little talk that suggests we need to prioritize and evaluate our time with our families.

[Teancum]

Geeeze Louize. No wonder the church tries to be so careful with what is in lesson manuals and what the missionaries teach. Look at the controversy over one little talk that suggests we need to prioritize and evaluate our time with our families.

I do not think this is controversial, It is a discussion. On a DISCUSSION board What is the big deal. Can't people here stand a little challenge? Sheesh