Dallin Oaks

[Severian]

Memo to schools: All games, concerts, plays etc. must end before 6:00 pm to allow for the LDS youth to attend FHE on Monday or their weekly activity Tuesday through Thursday.

I doubt the legislature or school districts outside of Utah and Idaho will enact this into law.

[stemelbow]

Perhaps hoops should note that Oaks' talk is suggesting there are choices that are good, and choices that are better, and choices that are best. He didn't say anything about bad. Of course for hoops to go there kinda shows he's talking about something he doesn't know about, or forgot about--usually a case of emotion driving his efforts his, IMO. If one is considering what Oaks said and reading this one is wondering what really is the critic arguing?

love,

stem

[selek]

True. Is this bad?

Did I say it was? I simply said that it's an inevitable challenge in life.

That's convenient. Take what he says then say, "well, it's obvious he really meant..."

Good grief.

It seems to me that that's precisely what you're doing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Elder Oaks said.

He called for balance. Balance is good. He called for important things not to be neglected. Important things should not be neglected.

Does a commitment to balance force us to make decisions? Yes. Are decisions always between good things and bad things? No. Do decisions sometimes have to be made between good things? Yes. Do good things sometimes have to be surrendered in order to make room for other good things? Yes. Is that peculiarly Mormon? No. Did Elder Oaks dictate precisely what choices people have to make? No. Is it important that people think about, and occasionaly rethink, their choices? Yes.

Herr Docktor Professor Peterson,

Allow my to remove my cheese-head hat and foam finger for a moment and point out the blindingly obvious. Hoops isn't prolonging this ordeal because he is sincerely straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel- he simply enjoys baiting and being obtuse.

He keeps poking this issue because he likes the sound it makes, not because he hopes for anything productive to come from it.

Of course, the entire argument is based upon- as some long forgotten and mysterious wise man once said- making LDS leaders "Offenders for A Word."

[Hoops22]

True. Is this bad?

Did I say it was? I simply said that it's an inevitable challenge in life.

That's convenient. Take what he says then say, "well, it's obvious he really meant..."

Good grief.

It seems to me that that's precisely what you're doing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Elder Oaks said.

He called for balance. Balance is good. He called for important things not to be neglected. Important things should not be neglected.

Does a commitment to balance force us to make decisions? Yes. Are decisions always between good things and bad things? No. Do decisions sometimes have to be made between good things? Yes. Do good things sometimes have to be surrendered in order to make room for other good things? Yes. Is that peculiarly Mormon? No. Did Elder Oaks dictate precisely what choices people have to make? No. Is it important that people think about, and occasionaly rethink, their choices? Yes.

I wonder if both of us are hampered by our individual biases for/against team sports. And, I wonder if Mr. Oaks and I were to have this conversation it might go differently. Still, I see your point and completely agree. And, I suspect, that if I choose team sports for my children over some (maybe many) church activities you would neither disparage my decision nor care one dadgum bit.

Mr. Oaks might have to take a different tack, considering his position.

Is this fair?

[stemelbow]

Hoops, you are misunderstand Oak's take altogether. just re-read what he said and perhaps you will figure that out.

love,

stem

[Hoops22]

Herr Docktor Professor Peterson,

Allow my to remove my cheese-head hat and foam finger for a moment and point out the blindingly obvious. Hoops isn't prolonging this ordeal because he is sincerely straining at a gnat while swallowing a camel- he simply enjoys baiting and being obtuse.

He keeps poking this issue because he likes the sound it makes, not because he hopes for anything productive to come from it.

Of course, the entire argument is based upon- as some long forgotten and mysterious wise man once said- making LDS leaders "Offenders for A Word."

I expected more from someone who would wear a cheese-head hat. But, Mr. Selek, you are wrong yet again.

My interest lies in the fact that I know many young LDS folks who are finding their place in the world through team sports. I would hate to think that anyone would interpret Oaks' comments as that they should deemphasize team sports and replace it with allegedly more spiritually significant activities at church for their kids. I think the comments about team sports kinda got my gourd a little bit.

And I have the anecdotes to support my argument - and to think those LDSers let an apostate like me coach their kids!!

[Hoops22]

Perhaps hoops should note that Oaks' talk is suggesting there are choices that are good, and choices that are better, and choices that are best. He didn't say anything about bad. Of course for hoops to go there kinda shows he's talking about something he doesn't know about, or forgot about--usually a case of emotion driving his efforts his, IMO. If one is considering what Oaks said and reading this one is wondering what really is the critic arguing?

love,

stem

Thanks stem. No, I got it. I think sports are better. And, if I were LDS, he should respect my reasons for thinking such. Maybe he would?

[Daniel Peterson]

I wonder if both of us are hampered by our individual biases for/against team sports.

I have no bias against team sports. I played baseball. I swam competitively. I also spent many weekends (and weeks) backpacking in the mountains of California. And etc.

I've said -- fifty-five times on this thread, at last count -- that team sports can be a very good thing, and that balance in life virtually always involves decisions between good things.

And, I suspect, that if I choose team sports for my children over some (maybe many) church activities you would neither disparage my decision nor care one dadgum bit.

That's a decision for you to make, and nobody is seeking to take it out of your hands.

That doesn't, of course, mean that I and others might not have an opinion about such decisions. I think, for example, that it's wrong to neglect one's children and one's marriage severely in order to pursue a corporate vice presidency. But people have their freedom, and nobody here has sought to say otherwise.

[selek]

I expected more from someone who would wear a cheese-head hat. But, Mr. Selek, you are wrong yet again.

Well.....there's a first time for everything. Nonetheless the problem with Brother Oaks' comments is not what he said, but what you are reading into it, as you've been told many times.

Since I have seen you demonstrate both a competent grasp of the English language and the ability to think cogently, the problem cannot lie with you not not understanding what's being said. The only other option then is that you are enjoying the empty and pointless go-round.

My interest lies in the fact that I know many young LDS folks who are finding their place in the world through team sports. I would hate to think that anyone would interpret Oaks' comments as that they should deemphasize team sports and replace it with allegedly more spiritually significant activities at church for their kids. I think the comments about team sports kinda got my gourd a little bit.

And I have the anecdotes to support my argument - and to think those LDSers let an apostate like me coach their kids!!

Actually, as a Christian, you would presumably be the first to accept that obeying Christ is more important than the putative priorities of a transient and mortal world.

As LDS, with the clear understanding that this mortality is a literal preparation for the next life, that imperative becomes even more clear.

None of this, however, lessens the point that the problem lies not with Oaks words, but your editorializing upon them.

[Hoops22]

Well.....there's a first time for everything. Nonetheless the problem with Brother Oaks' comments is not what he said, but what you are reading into it, as you've been told many times.

Since I have seen you demonstrate both a competent grasp of the English language and the ability to think cogently, the problem cannot lie with you not not understanding what's being said. The only other option then is that you are enjoying the empty and pointless go-round.

Actually, as a Christian, you would presumably be the first to accept that obeying Christ is more important than the putative priorities of a transient and mortal world.

As LDS, with the clear understanding that this mortality is a literal preparation for the next life, that imperative becomes even more clear.

None of this, however, lessens the point that the problem lies not with Oaks words, but your editorializing upon them.

I see your point. I don't think I have done that, but, okay. Perhaps I did jump the gun and read more into what he said than was necessary. And perhaps I was reactionary when thinking of the many young LDS who I have worked with and seen remarkable and lasting changes through their participation in team sports. And maybe I was imagining the specific one young person who is a completely different person now and how tragic it would have been if that person had not had the experience.

Or maybe I was right on target and there are very few here who would disagree with Oaks.

[Hoops22]

Actually, as a Christian, you would presumably be the first to accept that obeying Christ is more important than the putative priorities of a transient and mortal world.

As LDS, with the clear understanding that this mortality is a literal preparation for the next life, that imperative becomes even more clear.

Actually, these are the very character traits and world view that I believe participation in team sports addresses, in my view. I have seen it work too many times to be dissuaded easily. In other words, it is eternal consequences with which I am concerned.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hoops, I'm not exactly clear that you actually read Elder Oaks' talk, but if you did, I would ask you to read it again. Not only does Elder Oaks call for a re-evaluation of priorities (including sports, among several other things,) he nowhere states any are bad, but that all can be bad if they play to the detriment of all others. Excessive time spent in any one pursuit is a concern for us all; I've yet to meet a perfect manager of one's time. Team sports are fun, athletic, build sportsmanship and discipline, there are many good qualities that can arise from them. Like most other things there can be a bad side to sports as well, I'm sure you'd acknowledge that.

You seem to be saying Elder Oaks wanted people to spend more time at Church and less time in sports. Actually, in the talk itself, Elder Oaks never says this. Please, prove me wrong by citing where he says this or drop the argument. This is a CFR, and please provide a quoted reference. While your at it, see if you can find a reference where Oaks encourages more Church meetings, more time spent at Church as opposed to simplified meetings and functions that don't consume too much time. CFR.

Thanks!

[Hoops22]

But here is a caution for families. Suppose Church leaders reduce the time required by Church meetings and activities in order to increase the time available for families to be together. This will not achieve its intended purpose unless individual family membersâ??especially parentsâ??vigorously act to increase family togetherness and one-on-one time. Team sports and technology toys like video games and the Internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth.

THis is the quote to which I am referring.

I don't think this is always a bad thing. Am I wrong to conclude that he does?

[LifeOnaPlate]

But here is a caution for families. Suppose Church leaders reduce the time required by Church meetings and activities in order to increase the time available for families to be together. This will not achieve its intended purpose unless individual family members—especially parents—vigorously act to increase family togetherness and one-on-one time. Team sports and technology toys like video games and the Internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth.

THis is the quote to which I am referring.

I don't think this is always a bad thing. Am I wrong to conclude that he does?

Are you suggesting that team sports, internet, or video games (all residing between good, better, and best) are not sometimes winning to much time away? Or do you see Elder Oaks as saying "please do not participate in team sports?"

[Hoops22]

Are you suggesting that team sports, internet, or video games (all residing between good, better, and best) are not sometimes winning to much time away?

Depends on the child and the family. To consider that church is always better or best than team sports is naive to the situation of many kids. For some? I suppose. But for many, they are much better off at football practice than at some church meetings.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Depends on the child and the family. To consider that church is always better or best than team sports is naive to the situation of many kids. For some? I suppose. But for many, they are much better off at football practice than at some church meetings.

Is Christ more important to you than team sports? Are His teachings more important than team sports? Is the family more important than team sports? Does it have to be a choice between God and team sports, or the Church and team sports? Where is Elder Oaks demanding that Team sports are bad, or that all youth must give up team sports "for the Church?"

[Daniel Peterson]

I don't think this is always a bad thing. Am I wrong to conclude that he does?

Yes, I think you're wrong to conclude that Elder Oaks thinks there is anything wrong with team sports, as such. Can so much time be devoted to team sports, however, that family relationships suffer?

I'll offer my answer: Yes. And I'll offer an example that I know well:

Among my acquaintances, there was a divorce a few years ago in which one of the factors seems to have been the husband's nearly complete neglect of his wife and of his very young children and of all household obligations. They are both successful non-LDS professionals, but, at the end of her day, she had to come home and do all the cooking and the tending of their children so that he could go out virtually every night and play basketball and softball with his friends. On weekends, she did the landscaping and the gardening and the major household repairs -- and I mean all of them -- and tended the children, while he played golf with his friends. When the stress of his duties became too great, he would take several days to go hunting and fishing with his friends. She likes music, but he doesn't, so he never found the time to take her to a concert.

Now, I would imagine that he was honing valuable skills. His batting, I'm told, is excellent, and he's a high-scoring shooter. He's in excellent physical shape, too. Moreover, it seems that his friendships are very strong -- which is understandable, since he has devoted a great deal of time to them.

Batting skills and basketball scoring skills and physical fitness and friendships are all good. But the marriage fell apart. Some of us who knew them were simply astonished that it didn't collapse even sooner than it did.

A little balance would have helped.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I have a video game playing acquaintance with similar issues.

Elder Oaks has clearly been made an offender for a word herein.

[Hoops22]

Yes, I think you're wrong to conclude that Elder Oaks thinks there is anything wrong with team sports, as such. Can so much time be devoted to team sports, however, that family relationships suffer?

I'll offer my answer: Yes. And I'll offer an example that I know well:

Among my acquaintances, there was a divorce a few years ago in which one of the factors seems to have been the husband's nearly complete neglect of his wife and of his very young children and of all household obligations. They are both successful non-LDS professionals, but, at the end of her day, she had to come home and do all the cooking and the tending of their children so that he could go out virtually every night and play basketball and softball with his friends. On weekends, she did the landscaping and the gardening and the major household repairs -- and I mean all of them -- and tended the children, while he played golf with his friends. When the stress of his duties became too great, he would take several days to go hunting and fishing with his friends. She likes music, but he doesn't, so he never found the time to take her to a concert.

Now, I would imagine that he was honing valuable skills. His batting, I'm told, is excellent, and he's a high-scoring shooter. He's in excellent physical shape, too. Moreover, it seems that his friendships are very strong -- which is understandable, since he has devoted a great deal of time to them.

Batting skills and basketball scoring skills and physical fitness and friendships are all good. But the marriage fell apart. Some of us who knew them were simply astonished that it didn't collapse even sooner than it did.

A little balance would have helped.

Yes, that story is tragic and is probably what Mr. Oaks was referring to. Though I was referring specifically to YOUTH team sports - I should have made that delineation. And, to be clear, the gentleman in your story learned nothing from his experience in youth sports. Assuming he actually did play team sports then. It is behavior like you described that heightens the need for the values that team sports can teach. And I am quite comfortable in believing that Oaks would not disagree.

Is Christ more important to you than team sports?

Of course not.

Are His teachings more important than team sports?

no

Is the family more important than team sports? Does it have to be a choice between God and team sports,

yes, no.

or the Church and team sports?

Often, team sports, for us.

Where is Elder Oaks demanding that Team sports are bad, or that all youth must give up team sports "for the Church?"

He's not. But I thought that given the choice, one should choose church. That is not always the best thing.

[hokuman]

People with balance in their lives will almost always find it a challenge in specific areas to compete with people who lack such balance. A person who devotes time to family and to charitable activities and to a generally varied and balanced life will inevitably, to that extent, be at a competitive disadvantage as compared to someone who is monomaniacally devoted to sales, research, stock market research, piano practice, mountaineering, exercise, or whatever the area of competition happens to be. That's the way life is. It's no secret, I think, that more than a few CEOs have attained their success at some cost to their marriages and to their relationships with their children. (The same, in my experience, has been true in a distressing number of cases with people at the pinnacle of academic success.)

I think such considerations are so completely obvious as scarcely to merit pointing out. If lots of time is spent on X, that will leave less time to devote to Y. Who doubts it? Who doesn't experience it daily? Elder Oaks presumed a certain level of intelligence and common sense in his audience. I don't think his presumption misplaced.

amen

[Pahoran]

This one size fits all approach is ridiculous. Our kids need more exercize, more team sports, and more sense of belonging to something other than the church.

You know what?

You're right.

"This one size fits all approach"--namely, yours--is indeed ridiculous. Not every child needs more team sports. Indeed, not every child enjoys or does well at team sports.

And the storied propensity of team sports to "build character" is at least somewhat tarnished by the reality of what happens in team sports. After all, it wasn't Family Home Evening that brought the phrase "performance-enhancing drugs" into everyone's vocabulary. Families do not value people according to their ability to outdo others. It is not families that teach people to put the boot in when the umpire is looking the other way.

Furthermore, the children you have ranted about as needing to get away from home are the ones for whose family an inspired program such as Family Home Evening could be the most beneficial.

Your disapproval of Elder Oaks's counsel is evidence that it is inspired.

Bond's disapproval is proof.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hoops22]

You know what?

You're right.

"This one size fits all approach"--namely, yours--is indeed ridiculous. Not every child needs more team sports. Indeed, not every child enjoys or does well at team sports.

And the storied propensity of team sports to "build character" is at least somewhat tarnished by the reality of what happens in team sports. After all, it wasn't Family Home Evening that brought the phrase "performance-enhancing drugs" into everyone's vocabulary. Families do not value people according to their ability to outdo others. It is not families that teach people to put the boot in when the umpire is looking the other way.

Furthermore, the children you have ranted about as needing to get away from home are the ones for whose family an inspired program such as Family Home Evening could be the most beneficial.

Your disapproval of Elder Oaks's counsel is evidence that it is inspired.

Bond's disapproval is proof.

Regards,

Pahoran

These generalizations are ridiculous. Look, I can make them to: based on my dealings with individual LDS I shudder to think what FHE does teach. Do they teach profit at any cost? Did FHE bring us the phrase "profit before people"? Do they teach disapproval of non-LDS?

That's all it takes to prove to you that Elder Oaks counsel is inspired? My, my...not a high bar is it? (that's an athletic reference - not chess)

[Pahoran]

These generalizations are ridiculous. Look, I can make them to:

I know you can. In fact, you started off with the ridiculous generalisation that "Our kids need more exercize, [sic] more team sports."

based on my dealings with individual LDS I shudder to think what FHE does teach. Do they teach profit at any cost? Did FHE bring us the phrase "profit before people"? Do they teach disapproval of non-LDS?

No, they do not. These are not LDS traits. They are accusations that only undermine the credibility of the accuser.

That's all it takes to prove to you that Elder Oaks counsel is inspired? My, my...not a high bar is it? (that's an athletic reference - not chess)

You're right. I already knew Elder Oaks to be inspired. Your pharisaical nit-picking merely provided confirmation.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hoops22]

I know you can. In fact, you started off with the ridiculous generalisation that "Our kids need more exercize, [sic] more team sports."

No, they do not. These are not LDS traits. They are accusations that only undermine the credibility of the accuser.

You're right. I already knew Elder Oaks to be inspired. Your pharisaical nit-picking merely provided confirmation.

Regards,

Pahoran

Yeah, I know, that misspelling is inexcusable.

Actually, I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support my accusations about individual LDS. But, I know that's not what LDS teaches nor supports. You, however, have offered no reasonable support for your condemnation of team sports. However, I have offered my reasons for why I think it is important. And for some, critical to their development.

Well, my generalization that kids need more exercise is supported by numerous studies showing American kids are too fat. Maybe different in Europe, I don't know. You're generalizations are supported by your emotional foot-stomping.

Why is it we can never have a discussion without the inevitable "pharisee" reference? I can say the same for you with the same degree of validity. This is a discussion board isn't it? Or maybe you are only interested in discussing with those who agree with you. Some day I would love to discuss something without the belligerence - I know I'm guilty of it to.

If you want to haul your kids away from football practice to go to church or FHE, go ahead.

[Traela]

It is behavior like you described that heightens the need for the values that team sports can teach.

Please give me just ONE example of "values that team sports can teach," that couldn't be learned just as well elsewhere.