Dallin Oaks

[Hoops22]

that couldn't be learned just as well elsewhere.

Teamwork, commitment, intensity, leadership, working toward a goal, sacrifice, love, charity, competitiveness, handling adversity, handling failure, pride, workmanship, being true to ones values - need more?

Note the underline, please.

[Daniel Peterson]

You, however, have offered no reasonable support for your condemnation of team sports. However, I have offered my reasons for why I think it is important. And for some, critical to their development.

I have no problem agreeing that team sports can be a good thing, and important in the development of some children.

Making team sports into a god, though, strikes me as a bit much.

And team sports do definitely have an occasional bad side. I still remember the loud-mouthed and obnoxious parents in the stands at some of my Little League games, and the coach who wanted so badly to win that he was verbally abusive to us at practices and if somebody made an error in a game.

If you want to haul your kids away from football practice to go to church or FHE, go ahead.

There are a number of things that I would be willing to haul my kids away from football practice for. Visiting the sick, spending some time with their declining grandparents, performing ordinances at the temple, mowing a widow's lawn, doing their homework -- these and many other things strike me as worthy of occasionally failing to bow to the idol of team sports. There are other values in the world besides those instilled by football. There are other good things in the universe besides athletics.

To the best of my knowledge, none of the stars on my high school football team ended up going very far in life. At least one ended up in prison. Two of my best friends ended up running their little family business into the ground. Perhaps football did them some good. Perhaps something else instead or in addition might have done them even more good.

The absolute star of our high school swimming team was highly ranked in the state of California. He and his brother swam for a couple of hours every day before school at a private swim club. They practiced with us for three hours or so after school, and then they returned to their private swim club for at least a couple of hours of additional practice and coaching every evening. My impression was that their father was living out his dreams through them; I'm not even sure that they really liked competitive swimming all that much. I'm sure they learned discipline, though. They were certainly physically fit. They were also both quite bright, but their grade-point averages were just barely high enough to permit them to remain on the swim team. And, although the elder brother was ranked in the state and the terror of all the schools against whom we competed, he wasn't quite good enough to win nationally, or to qualify for the Olympics. He didn't get into a decent college, either. I don't know what he's doing now, but I think, in the long run, he would have been better off if he had spent a few minutes less doing laps and a few minutes more doing homework. Sports can be really good. They can also be a false god.

[Daniel Peterson]

Teamwork, commitment, intensity, leadership, working toward a goal, sacrifice, love, charity, competitiveness, handling adversity, handling failure, pride, workmanship, being true to ones values - need more?

Team sports can certainly teach some of these things well in certain cases. "Being true to one's values," though? I can think of other things that can teach that better. Likewise with "love" and "charity." I didn't notice a lot of love or charity on my high school football team.

And "workmanship"? Many activities can teach that.

[Hoops22]

There are a number of things that I would be willing to haul my kids away from football practice for. Visiting the sick, spending some time with their declining grandparents, performing ordinances at the temple, mowing a widow's lawn, doing their homework -- these and many other things strike me as worthy of occasionally failing to bow to the idol of team sports.

With one exception, me to.

I don't advocate the examples you give. And while I think we agree, I might be a little farther up the scale than you. And sports are not my idol, though I regard it as very important for those who are inclined. I also think, should one have another talent, then that should be pursued with equal vigor. And, of course, I can give many examples of those who have gleaned very valuable life lessons from sports. Mike Singletary comes to mind as an obvious one.

[Hoops22]

Team sports can certainly teach some of these things well in certain cases. "Being true to one's values," though? I can think of other things that can teach that better. Likewise with "love" and "charity." I didn't notice a lot of love or charity on my high school football team.

And "workmanship"? Many activities can teach that.

As you might imagine, I disagree. The nature of competitive athletics requires that these traits or lack thereof is magnified. Certainly, one can learn all these things through other activities, but because of the intensity of athletics, both physical and mental, these traits are honed to a fine point. You remember your practices. There were a whole lot of small lessons packed into 2.5 hours. And you, as a spiritual person, were able to internalize the good ones and bad ones effectively. Of course, i don't mean to speak to your experience, but this is my suspicion.

Sounds like you did learn something from football (I'm sure you did). Particularly, that love and charity should have been more evident. I suspect you're not the only one. Obviously, I don't know you and couldn't pick you out of a crowd of two, but would you agree that the lack of the traits on your team was a lesson for you? And that maybe you had a parent(s)/church member who helped you see that? I know it was for me. In addition, that when those traits we exhibited they became more profound?

These are the kinds of things I'm talking about.

[Thinking]

A little balance would have helped.

I agree 100%! And balance goes both ways.

[Thinking]

Team sports can certainly teach some of these things well in certain cases. "Being true to one's values," though? I can think of other things that can teach that better. Likewise with "love" and "charity." I didn't notice a lot of love or charity on my high school football team.

And "workmanship"? Many activities can teach that.

Isn't great to live in a world that's so diverse? Some people are athletically gifted, while others are great musicians. Still others are great writers and some people don't have any great marketable talents, but are good neighbors and citizens. It would be a boring world if everybody had the same talents.

The lessons of hard work and diligence can be learned on the playing field as well as the stage. They can also be learned in the chapel. With the diversity that exists in our society, I believe that there is not one best place to learn these lessons. It will be different for each individual.

[Rincewind]

I am reminded, as I've read this thread, of the movie "Chariots of Fire". /end of obscure but relevant comment

We all make decisions about what is important to us, and we make time for the things that are important. For where our treasure is, there will our heart be also. Sometimes we forget to make time for the most important things of all.

That's all I want to say.

[Geaux LSU]

Team sports are a waste of time, especially Football.

[Daniel Peterson]

And balance goes both ways.

I don't think that anybody here claims that it doesn't.

One or two people on this thread seem to think that Elder Oaks claims that it doesn't, but I, at least, can't wring that out of his remarks.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I agree 100%! And balance goes both ways.

No kidding. I'm absolutely CERTAIN this was Elder Oaks' purpose in giving his talk, based on his comments alone.

[Pahoran]

Yeah, I know, that misspelling is inexcusable.

No, it is merely a misspelling. Demanding that we all fall in with your slavish devotion to team sports is inexcusable.

Actually, I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support my accusations about individual LDS.

No you don't. You may have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support your accusations about individual business people, some of whom may be LDS; but those accusations are wildly inaccurate if they are supposed to parallel the problems with your slavish devotion to team sports.

You have no reason whatsoever to suppose that any LDS business people get their excessive zeal for profits from any Church source, nor even any evidence that LDS business people are more likely than non-LDS business people to show such an excessive zeal. OTOH, I never pick up a newspaper to read about (yet another) athlete failing a drug test without finding out that it was the trainer or the coach who supplied the illegal substance.

You listed some values or traits that you think competitive sports instill. You missed out a rather crucial one: "Winning isn't everything--it's the only thing."

But, I know that's not what LDS teaches nor supports. You, however, have offered no reasonable support for your condemnation of team sports.

I haven't condemned team sports. I've condemned your silly notion that team sports is some kind of panacea, and more important than stable, Christ-centred families.

However, I have offered my reasons for why I think it is important. And for some, critical to their development.

So critical that any attempt to strengthen their families can be brushed aside as irrelevant.

Got it.

Well, my generalization that kids need more exercise is supported by numerous studies showing American kids are too fat. Maybe different in Europe, I don't know. You're generalizations are supported by your emotional foot-stomping.

I've got no idea about Europe, since I live in Oceania.

You call it "emotional foot-stomping," but it is valid nonetheless. High-achieving athletes, like high-achieving business people or rock singers or anything else, need stable homes too.

Why is it we can never have a discussion without the inevitable "pharisee" reference?

Perhaps because we can never have a discussion without you trying to make someone an offender for a word?

Elder Oaks was right on the money.

It is not the case that success on the sports field can compensate for failure in the home.

If you want to haul your kids away from football practice to go to church or FHE, go ahead.

Why thank you. I will.

And in fact I would have done so even without your gracious permission.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hoops22]

No, it is merely a misspelling. Demanding that we all fall in with your slavish devotion to team sports is inexcusable.

I have never demanded this. You are dreaming this. I did, however, ask that one should consider that team sports has value for many kids that can not be brushed aside by one size fits all advice.

[Hoops22]

No you don't. You may have plenty of anecdotal evidence to support your accusations about individual business people, some of whom may be LDS; but those accusations are wildly inaccurate if they are supposed to parallel the problems with your slavish devotion to team sports.

You, of course, have no idea of what anecdotal evidence I do have. And these folks happen to be LDS, they are LDS. And the parallel of what was accused of me fits quite nicely, thank you.

[Hoops22]

You have no reason whatsoever to suppose that any LDS business people get their excessive zeal for profits from any Church source, nor even any evidence that LDS business people are more likely than non-LDS business people to show such an excessive zeal. OTOH, I never pick up a newspaper to read about (yet another) athlete failing a drug test without finding out that it was the trainer or the coach who supplied the illegal substance.

Actually, yes I do.

Just curious, how many times have you picked up a newspaper and read about an athlete NOT failing a drug test?

[Hoops22]

You listed some values or traits that you think competitive sports instill. You missed out a rather crucial one: "Winning isn't everything--it's the only thing."

Of course, you have used a quote that was never uttered. But I'm sure that doesn't matter. Enlighten yourself and find out what the man actually said and see if, maybe, what he said doesn't fit quite nicely with the will of Christ. The man was, by the way, a strong Christian and a wonderful example to others.

[Hoops22]

I haven't condemned team sports. I've condemned your silly notion that team sports is some kind of panacea, and more important than stable, Christ-centred families.

So critical that any attempt to strengthen their families can be brushed aside as irrelevant.

=

Never even came close to saying anything like this. I DID say that team sports are a great alternative for those kids who are from UN-stable homes and NON-Christ centered families. I said, additionally, that team sports can be a great support for the values being taught in Christ-centered homes and offers teaching moments that are difficult to find elsewhere.

[Hoops22]

You call it "emotional foot-stomping," but it is valid nonetheless. High-achieving athletes, like high-achieving business people or rock singers or anything else, need stable homes too.

Perhaps because we can never have a discussion without you trying to make someone an offender for a word?

No, hyperbolic responses to a discussion offers very little.

Who has said anything different? No, we can rarely have a discussion because of the tactic of crying "victim" or "pharisee" whenever someone disagrees with many here. But that's fine. Disappointing, but fine.

Elder Oaks was right on the money.

It is not the case that success on the sports field can compensate for failure in the home.

Regards,

Pahoran

Well, maybe his or maybe he isn't. That's what I was trying to discuss.

Who said it can?

But thank you for your response. I learn more and more here everyday.

[Pahoran]

I have never demanded this. You are dreaming this. I did, however, ask that one should consider that team sports has value for many kids that can not be brushed aside by one size fits all advice.

Elder Oaks said that family time is more important than sports teams, among other things. Then came the only "one size fits all advice" in view: namely, your insistence that "our kids need... more team sports."

My kids don't. And when I was a child, I certainly didn't.

Your follow-up posts indicated that you think sports teams are more important than family time.

Such are your values. You are entitled to them.

Elder Oaks, however, got it right.

Regards,

Pahoran

[Hoops22]

Elder Oaks said that family time is more important than sports teams, among other things. Then came the only "one size fits all advice" in view: namely, your insistence that "our kids need... more team sports."

My kids don't. And when I was a child, I certainly didn't.

Your follow-up posts indicated that you think sports teams are more important than family time.

Such are your values. You are entitled to them.

Elder Oaks, however, got it right.

Regards,

Pahoran

Depends on the family - as I said before. This is not that "out there". As a general rule, kids DO need more sports, exercise, and such. I'm glad that yours don't, that speaks well of you.

When I was a kid, I did need team sports. Desperately needed them, and I thank God I had them.

I don't think you really know my values or what I value for my kids. But the short discussion with you has been quite revealing. Thank you for your time and effort.

[Hoops22]

Elder Oaks said that family time is more important than sports teams, among other things.

Actually, no, he didn't say that, as has been pointed out to me several times (and I got the first 3 times I read his statement). I don't know whether he got it right or not - in what he actually said, but I wanted to discuss it.

[LifeOnaPlate]

Actually, no, he didn't say that, as has been pointed out to me several times (and I got the first 3 times I read his statement). I don't know whether he got it right or not - in what he actually said, but I wanted to discuss it.

Excellent, so now we know Elder Oaks' talk was not good or better, but best.

[Daniel Peterson]

team sports has value for many kids that can not be brushed aside by one size fits all advice.

Elder Oaks didn't given any one-size-fits-all advice. He didn't micromanage any family's decisions, either.

Creatio ex nihilo. You saw it first, on this very thread.

[LifeOnaPlate]

On this very thread/ There's quite enough love/For one like me...

[Thinking]

It was interesting to read the responses, especially by those who obviously had a bad experience with sports. I honestly feel bad for you if your parents forced you to participate in any activity that you hated. Some kids are forced to take music lessons for 10 years (yep, that was me). Fortunately my parents allowed me to participate in sports also.

I wonder if the reactions to what Oaks said would have been the same if he instead would have said, "But here is a caution for families. Suppose Church leaders reduce the time required by Church meetings and activities in order to increase the time available for families to be together. This will not achieve its intended purpose unless individual family membersâ??especially parentsâ??vigorously act to increase family togetherness and one-on-one time. [school choirs] and technology toys like video games and the Internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth. Surfing the Internet is not better than serving the Lord or strengthening the family. Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in [school plays] or to pursue various entertainments."