Dallin Oaks

[koakaipo]

I think you brought up a point I get teancum-how messages get diffused in our church community is sometimes the problem more than what is spoken by the leaders.

example-no homework on sunday by some GA I think. When I was in college, some of my peers took that advice, and went wacky with it. Suddenly people would be called out in the dorms if they were doing homework on Sunday by some girls-yet they would turn around and watch tv programs in the tv room. I remember always thinking when this happened(and it happened several times actually), where is your discernment here to go along with counsel, and why is counsel being used as a sort of weapon to chide others? Yuck.

Sometimes I think the leaders give pretty reasonable messages, and yet what people do with those messages can be a problem.

[Thinking]

This may be too personal, but how would your wife react to the excerpts you gave? Like for me personally, I would just think he's talking about prioritizing your time and keeping family at the center, and that church activities are probably more instructive long term than sports.

I don't necessarily think he was degrading sports so much as pointing out that it's very easy to get "caught up" in the suburban rat race of automatically putting your kid in every sport along with his friends-and before you know it, these activities end up running your household. I've had this happen before with having just two boys in sports-we didn't have dinner as a family for a good two months because competing schedules/practices. I think it's less about sports and more about organized leagues that is the problem.

Like I mentioned before, I grew up in a very devout family, but my parents were somewhat flexible about how much we participated with church activities during the week. School/homework/studying and family time tended to trump the activities.

At times my wife can be very "letter of the law." For example, when Hinckley said that women should only wear one pair of earrings, she immediately removed the second earring from her right ear.

Our daughter is on one of the high school dance teams. Our son has been in school plays and is in the band. We have not forced them to choose these activities (I played basketball & ran track while my wife was a cheerleader and gymnast). We are both happy that they have found activities that they love.

When I heard Oaks say, "Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments," I was reminded of a conflict my younger sisters had with their youth leaders. Both were on the high school volleyball team and missed many YW activities because of VB games during September and October. The leaders considered them "inactive" even though they both attended every Sunday and the leaders knew they were on the VB team. They would call my sisters and remind them that they had missed the activity and tell them that they really needed to attend their meetings.

Lest you think that I believe that all youth leaders are this way, I will tell you that my youth leaders were great. I also missed activities because I was on the high school basketball team. Often after a game ended, I noticed the young men's president in the stands. Now that's support!

I fear that some leaders will take what Oaks said and put pressure on the youth to quit these extracurricular activities in order to attend the weekly YM/YW activity.

[why me]

I kind of wondered while listening to Elder Oaks' talk if there may be some kind of meeting schedule change on the horizon and we're being preparing for it.

yes, I think that you are right. It has been in the wind for some time now. As more people have less free time in our socieities, the church will need to adapt or loose members. As I have said before, our socio-economic societies are in the gist of radical time transformations. Because of work commitments and individual hobby commitments, people have less time for church callings. And so, the church will find a way to ease the pain. Free time has become a treasured commodity. I still remember as boy, my father always having time on his hands. Now, time is in short supply.

[why me]

I fear that some leaders will take what Oaks said and put pressure on the youth to quit these extracurricular activities in order to attend the weekly YM/YW activity.

Since time has become a valued commodity it is not surprising the the lds church is worried about people skipping church activities. Where I live, the young people do have church activities but then again our high schools have no sports teams or clubs. No problem withe ld activities. But in US communities where sports and clubs are a natural part of school life, the situation changes. I have this impression that it is more than just sports and events. The adults in my area have very few actitivities at all to come together and socialize and it has in my opinion affected the lds church in my area(s).

It has to do with choices. And perhaps less youth are choosing lds activities because of other worldly endeavors in the United States.

[why me]

I agree with you up to a certain point. My observation though is that about fifteen (maybe 20) years ago, our leaders started encouraging members to become more involved in our communities, and less separated. Maybe this was not church wide, but it was so in our area. The natural consequence of LDS people becoming more involved in community service, activities and leadership (where the church is not the dominant force) is that the members' time is going to become spread much more thinly. I don't think the fault for this can lie exclusively with the socio economics of society.

This could be. However, community activities can be shared as a family as should be the case more often than not if that person has a family.

I do believe that studies have shown that we do have less free family time because of other proactive commitments. People at times seem to be running around in their own hurried and hectic pace and place. In such situations church activiites and events can take a back seat. In some cases teenagers can spend more time malling around than at a church event. The lds church is not separated from the world but is very much a part of it, as are its members. The lds are not the amish who I am sure always have time for a barn raising.

[Deborah]

I think you brought up a point I get teancum-how messages get diffused in our church community is sometimes the problem more than what is spoken by the leaders.

Excellent point. This topic an example of how some took this talk as a reminder to look at our schedules and make sure we are not letting other things interfere with family and some took it almost as a commandment to do or don't do certain things.

I think with all things, the leaders give a message to all and it is up to us to discern with the spirit how to apply it in our lives. Certainly the activities of our families depends on our circumstances and the ages of all inolved and the individual needs of each child. Some children do benefit from organized sports but others can be very stressed by them. One of my sons was the greatest softball pitcher the team had. The other just liked going to the games for the refreshments after. Team sports can be a great family activity, but with all things they can be carried to extremes. I think the whole point was to make sure we have time, both quality and quantity, with our children and re-evaluate whether some of the things we are doing are really necessary, both as families and as a church, and then to be more selective in our choices.

[alter idem]

Dallin Oaks dropped the ball (pun intended) on this one.

"But here is a caution for families. Suppose Church leaders reduce the time required by Church meetings and activities in order to increase the time available for families to be together. This will not achieve its intended purpose unless individual family membersâ??especially parentsâ??vigorously act to increase family togetherness and one-on-one time. Team sports and technology toys like video games and the Internet are already winning away the time of our children and youth. Surfing the Internet is not better than serving the Lord or strengthening the family. Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments.(Dallin Oaks, Good, Better, Best, Sunday Afternoon Session, October 2007 General Conference)"

Team sports are in the same "wasting time" category as video games?

President Hinckley has already asked that schools not schedule activities on Monday Night.

Now there appears to be a growing tendency to schedule other events on Monday night. We respectfully request that our public school officials and others let us have this one evening a week to carry forward this important and traditional program. We ask that they not schedule events that will require the time of children on Monday evenings. We are confident that they will realize that it is most important that families have the opportunity, at least once a week, to be together without conflicting loyalties. (Gordon B. Hinckley, To The Men Of The Priesthood, October 2002 General Conference)

Monday night is not available for school activities. The weekly youth activity may fall on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday.

Memo to schools: All games, concerts, plays etc. must end before 6:00 pm to allow for the LDS youth to attend FHE on Monday or their weekly activity Tuesday through Thursday.

I don't see that Elder Oaks is suggesting anything outrageous--I would assume other Christian families understand his meaning. Paul said in 1 Timothy 4:8 "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come."

Was Paul condemning exercise? Of course not. However, he is telling us that in the overall scheme of life, it has limited usefulness. Spiritual things should take precedence over everything else we can pursue while in the mortal state. I hate to break it to some people..dare I say it?... that includes sports. Blasphemy! Sacrilege!

Elder Oaks is only suggesting the same thing Paul is. And truthfully, those of us who have children can tell you that League sports can wear away a family's time and money and become all consuming if you let it. This isn't just about reserving Monday nights or keeping families busy with church stuff--this is about priorities and trying to raise the spirituality of the home and family.

[Daniel Peterson]

Tough to do if the child is in church and not on the field.

And where, precisely, did Elder Oaks suggest that children should spend all of their time in church and none on the field?

It's tough to "find oneself" in athletics while one is eating, too. And while one is learning to read. And while one is doing household chores. But nutrition, literacy, and helpfulness around the house aren't bad things, and somebody saying that children ought to engage in such activities and that sports ought not to interfere unduly with them cannot fairly be charged with denouncing athletics or claiming that no time should be spent on the field.

When your critique requires you to imply that Elder Oaks advocated absurd extremes that he in fact never suggested, you might want to reconsider your approach.

There is no legitimate controversy here.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I can't believe Elder Oaks said we should all quit all sports and video games are all of satan as well as all sports and we have to all be in church 12 times a week i can't believe it

[Hammer]

Although sports are "basically" a good thing, family home evening is "all" good!

I believe he was referring to the 'time' consuming elements of sports. There are endless practices, games, and get togethers of team members to party.

"time' isn't that what it is really all about. How much are we giving to the eternal values and how much are we giving to the world?

[koakaipo]

At times my wife can be very "letter of the law." For example, when Hinckley said that women should only wear one pair of earrings, she immediately removed the second earring from her right ear.

Our daughter is on one of the high school dance teams. Our son has been in school plays and is in the band. We have not forced them to choose these activities (I played basketball & ran track while my wife was a cheerleader and gymnast). We are both happy that they have found activities that they love.

When I heard Oaks say, "Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments," I was reminded of a conflict my younger sisters had with their youth leaders. Both were on the high school volleyball team and missed many YW activities because of VB games during September and October. The leaders considered them "inactive" even though they both attended every Sunday and the leaders knew they were on the VB team. They would call my sisters and remind them that they had missed the activity and tell them that they really needed to attend their meetings.

Lest you think that I believe that all youth leaders are this way, I will tell you that my youth leaders were great. I also missed activities because I was on the high school basketball team. Often after a game ended, I noticed the young men's president in the stands. Now that's support!

I fear that some leaders will take what Oaks said and put pressure on the youth to quit these extracurricular activities in order to attend the weekly YM/YW activity.

Thanks for the response.

Actually I totally understand you about how pretty basic counsel sometimes becomes like a tool of control actually for some members(not meaning your wife, but like your example of the youth leaders gone wild). That's one of my biggest pet peeves as a member-when people take counsel, turn around and turn it into a hoop that they expect others to jump through or else be branded "inactive" or "apostate" or "struggling" or whatever. I think when members try to become middlemen between members and counsel, they are perverting the very motivations for listening to counsel. I know people who stopped wearing two earrings not because they wanted to, but because people were making a big deal about it. What's the point of counsel if it becomes a sort of bargaining tool to not be nagged? I don't think they realize the damage they can do, but they can make some real hot messes with that approach.

I had some great youth leaders too, but I had a couple doozies of my own. My parents tended to act as buffers though, and once my mother regulated, the doozies never brought it up again. ha....

[Hoops22]

And where, precisely, did Elder Oaks suggest that children should spend all of their time in church and none on the field?

I, of course, never said he said this. But that doesn't matter.

When your critique requires you to imply that Elder Oaks advocated absurd extremes that he in fact never suggested, you might want to reconsider your approach.

I never did this. But you did.

There is no legitimate controversy here.

Unless you're that kid who needs/wants to spend MORE time on the field to better your game or gain a competitive advantage, then there's plenty of controversy. And I wouldn't allow it. But fortunately I don't have this problem with our church.

Never said he said that. But actually reading to an alternative point of view is tough sometimes. I am implying that Oaks is suggesting you (lds) deemphasize team sports and reemphasize church activities. I am merely suggesting that this kind of blanket "advice" is not workable and can be even harmful to many. I was very clear in my statements and I am not jumping too far afield in my reading of Oaks.

[Teancum]

I can't believe Elder Oaks said we should all quit all sports and video games are all of satan as well as all sports and we have to all be in church 12 times a week i can't believe it

I don't believe anyone said he said this so you probably should not believe it.

[Daniel Peterson]

Never said he said that.

Then what is it, exactly, that you're saying?

All Elder Oaks said is that some good activities can metastasize and crowd out other really good activities, and that adequate time should be given to church and family activities.

Are sports good? Yes. Not always, but frequently. Can one "find oneself" athletically while sitting in a church pew or seminary classroom? No. Probably not. But one can't "find oneself" athletically while sleeping, either. Still, sleep is good, and getting too little sleep is bad. If somebody suggests that fourteen-year-old Tommy needs to get more sleep, even if it means cutting back a bit on his research into theoretical physics and his meditations on Aristotelian ethics, that doesn't imply anything wrong with either Aristotle or physics.

Elder Oaks suggested avoiding imbalance. He laid down no hard and fast rules. He didn't denounce athletics or suggest that Latter-day Saint kids abandon sports. He made absolutely no attempt to micromanage anybody's decisions.

Is balance really all that inflammatory a concept? Is it really foreign to your denomination?

Can time with family cut into time spent perfecting one's free-throw technique? Probably. That's part of the dilemma of life. Time with family can also cut into the time one has for climbing the corporate ladder. It can interfere with the amount of time that one can spend on the road selling widgets. But that doesn't mean that it's wrong or dangerous or harmful to suggest that a Jack Welch or Professor Harold Hill wannabe ought, perhaps, not to neglect his relationship with his wife and children.

I am implying that Oaks is suggesting you (lds) deemphasize team sports and reemphasize church activities.

I can't see any harm in such advice in cases where team sports (or any other activity) are (as can easily happen) crowding out family time and church involvement.

I am merely suggesting that this kind of blanket "advice" is not workable and can be even harmful to many.

Any principle can be harmful if misapplied.

Elder Oaks's advice is perfectly sound. It's up to individuals and to individual families to decide how or whether it applies to them.

I've always disbelieved in creation ex nihilo, but threads like this one tempt me to revise my position.

[LifeOnaPlate]

I've always disbelieved in creation ex nihilo, but threads like this one tempt me to revise my position.

Agreed!

Hoops, my friend, please take a step back and realize Elder Oaks is encouraging people to re-evaluate their schedules and make sure they don't neglect the "weightier matters," as well as not putting too much emphasis on those weightier matters. It was a great talk.

[alter idem]

Never said he said that. But actually reading to an alternative point of view is tough sometimes. I am implying that Oaks is suggesting you (lds) deemphasize team sports and reemphasize church activities. I am merely suggesting that this kind of blanket "advice" is not workable and can be even harmful to many. I was very clear in my statements and I am not jumping too far afield in my reading of Oaks.

Hoops, I'm pretty sure you're christian. Did you read my post? Did you read what Paul said?

Why is it that when Elder Oaks suggests essentially the same thing as Paul, you consider it "not workable" and "harmful"?

[LifeOnaPlate]

Hoops, I'm pretty sure you're christian. Did you read my post? Did you read what Paul said?

Why is it that when Elder Oaks suggests essentially the same thing as Paul, you consider it "not workable" and "harmful"?

Some might think it's because Hoops is looking to find fault with one and not the other.

[charity]

Everytime I go by the LDS Church down the road their are cars in the parking lot. How about cutting down on the time at church rather than the time with sports teams?

Stop structuring a whole night for "Family Home Evening" and let people have more flexible spiritual schedules if they have to have them, rather than having to chop awhole night out of the week for church stuff.

Yeah, right. Our stake center right down the road from us is "home" to 3 wards and a stake. We have a full size gym. We are lucky if we can get one ward activity a month scheduled in there. I know in our ward, Tuesday nights are ward leadership and stake leadership meetings. Wednesday is YMYW. That's it for our ward, except for those once a month thing. So times that by 3 and you see why the parking lot is used every night, but not by every ward. Shsssssssh.

There are many activities which become family consuming. One of my granddaughter was involved in Irish Step Dancing for a while. She really enjoyed it. But you can't just take lessons here and there for fun. You have to be preparing for Feshes (the competitions), you have to participate in at least 4 a year to move up, which requires traveling. Oregon LDS kids who would want to move up, have to go to Idaho Feshes becaue they don't have the upper level competitions on Sunday as the Washington and Oregon ones are. Practices are 3 times a week. Get my drift?

[Hoops22]

Hoops, I'm pretty sure you're christian. Did you read my post? Did you read what Paul said?

Why is it that when Elder Oaks suggests essentially the same thing as Paul, you consider it "not workable" and "harmful"?

I did read your post. And I agree. But bodily exercise has very little to do with team sports. If that's all i wanted for my kid then we would play in the back yard, go running and hiking (which we do) and leave it at that. I am addressing the other intrinsic value team sports offers.

Some might think it's because Hoops is looking to find fault with one and not the other.

Some might think that but then some would be wrong.

[Daniel Peterson]

I am addressing the other intrinsic value team sports offers.

Yet the intrinsic value that team sports can offer is not seriously in dispute here.

[Hoops22]

Then what is it, exactly, that you're saying?

I've said it here: I am implying that Oaks is suggesting you (lds) deemphasize team sports and reemphasize church activities.

Any principle can be harmful if misapplied.

Elder Oaks's advice is perfectly sound. It's up to individuals and to individual families to decide how or whether it applies to them.

Of course I agree with this. But that's not what I got from his statement.

I've always disbelieved in creation ex nihilo, but threads like this one tempt me to revise my position.

Just a simple discussion, that's all. It seems like this is the very thing friends can/do and should talk about. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

[Hoops22]

Yet the intrinsic value that team sports can offer is not seriously in dispute here.

But if one were to take time away from team sports to do other things, church or whatever, one loses a great deal of that intrinsic value due to ones inability to adequately compete.

I did not see these kinds of qualifiers in his statements.

[Daniel Peterson]

But if one were to take time away from team sports to do other things, church or whatever, one loses a great deal of that intrinsic value due to ones inability to adequately compete.

People with balance in their lives will almost always find it a challenge in specific areas to compete with people who lack such balance. A person who devotes time to family and to charitable activities and to a generally varied and balanced life will inevitably, to that extent, be at a competitive disadvantage as compared to someone who is monomaniacally devoted to sales, research, stock market research, piano practice, mountaineering, exercise, or whatever the area of competition happens to be. That's the way life is. It's no secret, I think, that more than a few CEOs have attained their success at some cost to their marriages and to their relationships with their children. (The same, in my experience, has been true in a distressing number of cases with people at the pinnacle of academic success.)

I did not see these kinds of qualifiers in his statements.

I think such considerations are so completely obvious as scarcely to merit pointing out. If lots of time is spent on X, that will leave less time to devote to Y. Who doubts it? Who doesn't experience it daily? Elder Oaks presumed a certain level of intelligence and common sense in his audience. I don't think his presumption misplaced.

[Hoops22]

People with balance in their lives will almost always find it a challenge in specific areas to compete with people who lack such balance.

True. Is this bad?

I think such considerations are so completely obvious as scarcely to merit pointing out. If lots of time is spent on X, that will leave less time to devote to Y. Who doubts it? Who doesn't experience it daily? Elder Oaks presumed a certain level of intelligence and common sense in his audience. I don't think his presumption misplaced.

That's convenient. Take what he says then say, "well, it's obvious he really meant..."

[Daniel Peterson]

True. Is this bad?

Did I say it was? I simply said that it's an inevitable challenge in life.

That's convenient. Take what he says then say, "well, it's obvious he really meant..."

Good grief.

It seems to me that that's precisely what you're doing.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Elder Oaks said.

He called for balance. Balance is good. He called for important things not to be neglected. Important things should not be neglected.

Does a commitment to balance force us to make decisions? Yes. Are decisions always between good things and bad things? No. Do decisions sometimes have to be made between good things? Yes. Do good things sometimes have to be surrendered in order to make room for other good things? Yes. Is that peculiarly Mormon? No. Did Elder Oaks dictate precisely what choices people have to make? No. Is it important that people think about, and occasionaly rethink, their choices? Yes.