Dallin Oaks

[Daniel Peterson]

What is conflicting to me is the Church that wants us to spend more time with family. Yet the Church demands A LOT of time. We have many meetings, many activities, callings that take much time. Then with what time we have the Church wants to tell us what to do with that too.

Where has the Church told you what to do with all your remaining free time? What, specically, has the Church told you to do with it? To spend at least a substantial part of it with your family? To spend it on good activities?

For the life of me, I don't see the injury or the problem here.

[Teancum]

Where has the Church told you what to do with all your remaining free time. What, specically, has the Church told you to do with it? To spend at least a substantial part of it with your family? To spend it on good activities?

For the life of me, I don't see the injury or the problem here.

Actually the talk was not that big of a deal to me. I understand that the leaders speak in general. The only issue I have is what is good? For some, a lot of sporting events for children assuming the family participates is good better and maybe even best. Why does Elder Oaks need to decide that for you or me or anyone else. My only complaint it that the Church already takes a lot of time. It seems to me he said something like "We have done things to take less of your time, we may do more but we think you are waisting it so we want to tell you what to do with it. And then he said that some activities that we think are good are taking kids from church activities.

A family in my wars has a good rule. I like it. The mandatory Church things for their kids are seminary and Sunday meetings. If school or other sports or music or drama get in the way of youth night, stake youth activities and so on they don't sweat it. Seems to work for them.

[Daniel Peterson]

Sometimes it is wise to go with the flow and re-define what FHE means. Heck, how many solid, traditional practices were modified, redefined or ditched alltogether?

If mom-dad come home and there's a little daylight left, why not take a hike to one of the glorious Wasatch Canyons? Leave the Ipods home, there you have plenty opportunity to talk....

I know plenty of people who do such things. We have.

Again, I don't see the problem.

[DH]

I don't think Elder Oaks meant those activities, whether sports, video games, or surfing the Net, are inherently bad or wasteful. It's just that sometimes people get so carried up in various activities that they don't spend much time with their family. Going to a sporting event with your family is fine, but it doesn't substitute for the kind of time FHE provides, face-to-face, actually talking to each other and not focusing on something else.

DH

[Daniel Peterson]

For some, a lot of sporting events for children assuming the family participates is good better and maybe even best. Why does Elder Oaks need to decide that for you or me or anyone else.

I didn't hear him trying to "decide" anything for you or me. He was simply pointing out what is and ought to be obvious: Lots of things -- even good things -- take away from family time, and we should be careful about that.

This is not only not injurious, it's perfectly sound. A needed warning to some (many?) people.

I know a family in which, from the time they're little, all the (super high-performing) kids have Franklin Planners. It's a great family, but what little time they have to spend together needs to be carefully scheduled in. Elder Oaks is simply saying that we ought to be sure that family time gets in there, too, between piano and ballet and soccer and band and student government and business and PTA and, yes, church activities.

What is wrong with that?

[koakaipo]

I can only speak for myself, but I suspect that many of the critics on this board feel as I do. I belong to a very TBM family, as does my wife. My wife is still very active as are my kids, although my son has expressed some doubts on occasion. Because mormonism is still very much a part of my life, it affects me. What the leaders say at GC affects me because my family listens. This board allows for discussion which could not happen in Sunday School or Priesthood.

This may be too personal, but how would your wife react to the excerpts you gave? Like for me personally, I would just think he's talking about prioritizing your time and keeping family at the center, and that church activities are probably more instructive long term than sports.

I don't necessarily think he was degrading sports so much as pointing out that it's very easy to get "caught up" in the suburban rat race of automatically putting your kid in every sport along with his friends-and before you know it, these activities end up running your household. I've had this happen before with having just two boys in sports-we didn't have dinner as a family for a good two months because competing schedules/practices. I think it's less about sports and more about organized leagues that is the problem.

Like I mentioned before, I grew up in a very devout family, but my parents were somewhat flexible about how much we participated with church activities during the week. School/homework/studying and family time tended to trump the activities.

[DH]

Believe it or not, I know a fellow who was actually disfellowshipped for neglecting his family, because he was too involved in Church activities! It took a long time for the wife to convince the bishop there was a problem, but finally he had an "''aha' moment."

[Teancum]

I didn't hear him trying to "decide" anything for you or me. He was simply pointing out what is and ought to be obvious: Lots of things -- even good things -- take away from family time, and we should be careful about that.

This is not only not injurious, it's perfectly sound. A needed warning to some (many?) people.

I know a family in which, from the time they're little, all the (super high-performing) kids have Franklin Planners. It's a great family, but what little time they have to spend together needs to be carefully scheduled in. Elder Oaks is simply saying that we ought to be sure that family time gets in there, too, between piano and ballet and soccer and band and student government and business and PTA and, yes, church activities.

What is wrong with that?

Nothing is wrong with this. Do you think there is a way for the Church to facilitate this better? In particular I wonder what your thoughts are on the amount of time many Church callings take away from family. Does in never frustrate you when you hear a talk about spending time with family then realize that your church calling may have taken 10, 15 or 20 hours that week away from your family. Many church callings can approach the time of a second part time and some almost full time job.

What are your thoughts on this?

[LifeOnaPlate]

This thread is downright baffling.

[Hoops22]

Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments.(

This is what the man said. The implication is clear.

And, no, I'm not LDS, so in the grand scheme I couldn't care less. It's your church, do what you want. However, my biggest problem here is that team sports are getting a bad rap. For many youth, finding that hidden talent they have gives them immediate credibility and respect from their peers. Same is true for music and other things, but let's face facts: being great at piano and being great at football are not looked upon the same way. Just the way it is.

[Teancum]

This thread is downright baffling.

Why?

[LifeOnaPlate]

It shows a lack of ability on the part of some to really think for themselves.

[why me]

Nothing is wrong with this. Do you think there is a way for the Church to facilitate this better? In particular I wonder what your thoughts are on the amount of time many Church callings take away from family. Does in never frustrate you when you hear a talk about spending time with family then realize that your church calling may have taken 10, 15 or 20 hours that week away from your family. Many church callings can approach the time of a second part time and some almost full time job.

What are your thoughts on this?

I don't remember in the past members complaining about church callings and the time they take away from family. I think that this is more a modern complaint. Like I said, it is not the church's fault but the socio-economic system that the church finds itself in. Today, people have less time with family due to work responsibility. I can also mention the hurried life that many members find themselves in. No time has become the mantra.

Of course the lds church is the first to be critized but in actual fact, the church has not changed but society has changed. Callings have always been a part of the church. But now, in this day and age, time is a valued commodity. Families are suffering not because of church callings but because of time as commodity.

[koakaipo]

Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments.(

This is what the man said. The implication is clear.

And, no, I'm not LDS, so in the grand scheme I couldn't care less. It's your church, do what you want. However, my biggest problem here is that team sports are getting a bad rap. For many youth, finding that hidden talent they have gives them immediate credibility and respect from their peers. Same is true for music and other things, but let's face facts: being great at piano and being great at football are not looked upon the same way. Just the way it is.

I mentioned this earlier, but I do wonder if the implication is less about "sports" and more about "leagues."

I'm huge on sports. My kids are active buggers and sports are a great way to poop the buggers out while they learn how to stay fit and become more skilled in various athletics.

But sports and organized sports are two different things. And there's an ugly side to the organized part to me-I've seen it time and time again. Dad coaches turning the sport into something not fun by insisting on too many practices, kids crying out of shame cause they blow a play and coach has a very public meltdown, mothers of 6 year olds keeping stats sheets and scolding their kids when their stats are going down, overregimenting the practices in ways that are age inappropriate, Parents setting bad examples in terms of sportsmanship.

Kids are awesome. Sports are awesome. Parents organizing sports in a way that it turns the sport into a stressful job for 8 years olds? Eh, it's a hit and miss. And honestly, as a card carrying soccer/track/basketball mom, sometimes the adults meddling too much in the sports results in the leagues running your household schedule.

[Teancum]

I don't remember in the past members complaining about church callings and the time they take away from family. I think that this is more a modern complaint. Like I said, it is not the church's fault but the socio-economic system that the church finds itself in. Today, people have less time with family due to work responsibility. I can also mention the hurried life that many members find themselves in. No time has become the mantra.

Of course the lds church is the first to be critized but in actual fact, the church has not changed but society has changed. Callings have always been a part of the church. But now, in this day and age, time is a valued commodity. Families are suffering not because of church callings but because of time as commodity.

Well I am only 48 and I have heard concerns over time Church callings take off and on all my life. Maybe people do feel it more due to various reasons. But if in fact socio economic strains require people to work more should the church modify it time demands for various callings. I recall hearing Pres Hicnkley express concerns over the time it takes to be a bishop. In order to par back the time demands he suggested a bishop spend most of Sunday doing his church work, one night a week for youth and one night a week for visiting ward members. He emphasized delegating more as well. All great ideas. But in reality the tasks that only a bishop can do it going to take more time then this. Especially in a ward with lots of problems.

I am not sure what callings you have or have had. And maybe I am just tired or a whiner. However, for about 19 years of my 26 years of marriage I have not been able to go to church with my family because of early AM Sunday meetings due to callings. For 9-11 of those years I have not sat with my family. For 3 of those years about twice a month I attended another ward. I really have always enjoyed my church service. It has placed me in some unique positions to assist and help others in ways I do not think I even would have had. But I have felt pains of guilt for being away from my wife and my children so much. One child who is not grown and not active sometimes, when he is trying to get to me, uses this as a reason that he rebelled. Maybe it is my fault. I always held FHE, did scripture reading most of the time, spent time with my children when home. I read to them each every night I was home and always had a book going for each of the four of them so we had one on one time. We had FHE gospel oriented on Sunday night the FHE fun time on Monday. About every 6th week I would let each of them choose an activity for date with dad nigh so they had me one on one.

And we did limit their other outside activity as well. I think they did not always like it and still complain that at times we did not support their non Church sporting desires or other things like they would have liked. But all in all I think my oldest three had a pretty good up brining. Not perfect though. But I could have been there more and the Church did tale A LOT of time.

So I was there but gone a lot too. I now only have one at home so balancing things is much easier.

[Hoops22]

I mentioned this earlier, but I do wonder if the implication is less about "sports" and more about "leagues."

I'm huge on sports. My kids are active buggers and sports are a great way to poop the buggers out while they learn how to stay fit and become more skilled in various athletics.

But sports and organized sports are two different things. And there's an ugly side to the organized part to me-I've seen it time and time again. Dad coaches turning the sport into something not fun by insisting on too many practices, kids crying out of shame cause they blow a play and coach has a very public meltdown, mothers of 6 year olds keeping stats sheets and scolding their kids when their stats are going down, overregimenting the practices in ways that are age inappropriate, Parents setting bad examples in terms of sportsmanship.

Kids are awesome. Sports are awesome. Parents organizing sports in a way that it turns the sport into a stressful job for 8 years olds? Eh, it's a hit and miss. And honestly, as a card carrying soccer/track/basketball mom, sometimes the adults meddling too much in the sports results in the leagues running your household schedule.

NOt sure where to begin here, but, since the topic is time church takes - rightly or wrongly - from/for families I will leave it at this: the infrequent aberrations you describe is not enough, imo, to justify reducing the importance of team sports.

I am finding the life lessons my basketball/football/golf/CC/Track/baseball son and daughters has/have learned to be of tremendous value - lessons not learned in church. Rather, spiritual lessons put into practice in the real world, not the sterilized world of church. Many of those lessons correlating directly to the behaviours you mentioned above, as well as some more unseemly behaviors. Kinda like life.

[koakaipo]

NOt sure where to begin here, but, since the topic is time church takes - rightly or wrongly - from/for families I will leave it at this: the infrequent aberrations you describe is not enough, imo, to justify reducing the importance of team sports.

I am finding the life lessons my basketball/football/golf/CC/Track/baseball son and daughters has/have learned to be of tremendous value - lessons not learned in church. Rather, spiritual lessons put into practice in the real world, not the sterilized world of church. Many of those lessons correlating directly to the behaviours you mentioned above, as well as some more unseemly behaviors. Kinda like life.

How much do you see being reduced though honestly? Because it was mentioned with video games? Why are you polarizing church and sports too? I don't think everything is going to be found within the walls of church on Sunday. Are we talking from different ages too by any chance in terms of how leagues affect children?

Basic socialization and learning to get along with others and teamwork and personal discipline and focus can be found within sports. Does the sports have to be organized though to the degree that it is though? How the heck did our parents survive then without organized leagues?

I'm not making this up for my own amusement-there has been alot of dialogue going on in popular culture regarding the degree adults are regimenting childhood. That includes playtime and sports, and the more adults dip their fingers in child's play, the more different the nature of the play becomes.

Where I live these "aberrations" are not infrequent. They are just the price you play when you get your kids in leagues. There's great parents who try to keep things in perspective-but there is a good number of parents that act a hot mess as well.

eta: I already mentioned previously too that it's up to the parents to keep things in balance-whether it's sports or church activities. What can be a good thing can easily become a bad thing under different circumstances. I'm not big on doing things out of guilt or with resentment-so if I think I need to limit activities regardless what they are for the good of my family, I will. And I do.

[katherine the great]

I don't remember in the past members complaining about church callings and the time they take away from family. I think that this is more a modern complaint. Like I said, it is not the church's fault but the socio-economic system that the church finds itself in. Today, people have less time with family due to work responsibility. I can also mention the hurried life that many members find themselves in. No time has become the mantra.

I agree with you up to a certain point. My observation though is that about fifteen (maybe 20) years ago, our leaders started encouraging members to become more involved in our communities, and less separated. Maybe this was not church wide, but it was so in our area. The natural consequence of LDS people becoming more involved in community service, activities and leadership (where the church is not the dominant force) is that the members' time is going to become spread much more thinly. I don't think the fault for this can lie exclusively with the socio economics of society.

[Hoops22]

How much do you see being reduced though honestly? Because it was mentioned with video games? Why are you polarizing church and sports too? I don't think everything is going to be found within the walls of church on Sunday. Are we talking from different ages too by any chance in terms of how leagues affect children?

I quite agree here. I don't think his suggestion will make a whit of difference. Still, it does make a comment on what is important in the LDS hierarchy.

Because church (even LDS churches, possibly ) equips us to go out into the world - team sports are a part of that.

As far as ages of participants go, I am in the camp of those who think that younger children sports teams does nothing for them - benefits of exercise aside. We do it for the exercise alone when we know that not only is the philosophy of no value, but quite possibly detrimental. We'll suffer through anyway.

[Daniel Peterson]

Nothing is wrong with this. Do you think there is a way for the Church to facilitate this better? In particular I wonder what your thoughts are on the amount of time many Church callings take away from family. Does in never frustrate you when you hear a talk about spending time with family then realize that your church calling may have taken 10, 15 or 20 hours that week away from your family. Many church callings can approach the time of a second part time and some almost full time job.

What are your thoughts on this?

Yes, it can be frustrating. But it's just part of a much more general problem that isn't caused by the Church and has nothing to do with Mormonism: I would like to do more of many things. But the things I'm already doing prevent me from doing so. There are books that I should be reading. There are charitable and volunteer projects that I would like to be involved with. The time I'm reading takes away from the time I can devote to such projects. The time devoted to such projects takes way from the time I have for reading. The time that I spend with my family takes away from my professional time. The effort I put into professional things often interferes with family time.

This whole life is a constant, frustrating, and -- in a sense -- ultimately unsuccessful attempt to balance family time with hobby time with work time with exercise time with charitable time with sleeping time, etc., etc. You and I will never have the time to do all that we want to do, and we will always leave things undone that we wanted to do.

Mormonism doesn't cause this, and the disappearance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would not fix it.

Anybody who is completely satisfied, who has all of the time that he or she could possibly want and has accomplished all that he or she wanted to accomplish, is simply unambitious.

[Daniel Peterson]

Some young men and women are skipping Church youth activities or cutting family time in order to participate in soccer leagues or to pursue various entertainments.(

This is what the man said. The implication is clear.

Yes, it is. And it seems unproblematic. He thinks Church youth activities are important. (He's a Church leader and a believer; this should not be surprising.) He thinks that family time is important. (He's a Latter-day Saint; this is pretty standard Latter-day Saint fare.) He is worried that some other activities may sometimes be interfering with family time and with Church youth activities more than they should.

What on earth is so problematic about what he said? I simply don't get it.

However, my biggest problem here is that team sports are getting a bad rap.

Could somebody please point out to me where Elder Oaks denounced team sports or said that team sports aren't good?

This is a matter, not of condemning bad things, but of worrying about a good thing interfering with another good thing that shouldn't be neglected.

If Jody is a fanatical soccer player but ought to be practicing piano, it's not an attack on soccer to suggest that she cut her soccer playing by an hour or so to do her piano practice. And if she's playing piano all day but failing to get enough exercise, it's not an attack on music to suggest that she curtail her piano playing for a few minutes, several times a week, to get some physical exercise.

For many youth, finding that hidden talent they have gives them immediate credibility and respect from their peers.

That's fine. Has anybody said otherwise?

[MorningStar]

This may be too personal, but how would your wife react to the excerpts you gave? Like for me personally, I would just think he's talking about prioritizing your time and keeping family at the center, and that church activities are probably more instructive long term than sports.

I don't necessarily think he was degrading sports so much as pointing out that it's very easy to get "caught up" in the suburban rat race of automatically putting your kid in every sport along with his friends-and before you know it, these activities end up running your household. I've had this happen before with having just two boys in sports-we didn't have dinner as a family for a good two months because competing schedules/practices. I think it's less about sports and more about organized leagues that is the problem.

Like I mentioned before, I grew up in a very devout family, but my parents were somewhat flexible about how much we participated with church activities during the week. School/homework/studying and family time tended to trump the activities.

I agree with you 100%. Sports are good in many ways, but it's the leagues I'm concerned about. I would like my kids to play for fun, not have it be a huge time commitment, and not subject them to the yelling parents with the veins bulging out of their foreheads. I remember this one dad - whenever he was at any kind of ball game, he would yell and look like he was about to have a stroke. It's just a game!

[Teancum]

Yes, it can be frustrating. But it's just part of a much more general problem that isn't caused by the Church and has nothing to do with Mormonism: I would like to do more of many things. But the things I'm already doing prevent me from doing so. There are books that I should be reading. There are charitable and volunteer projects that I would like to be involved with. The time I'm reading takes away from the time I can devote to such projects. The time devoted to such projects takes way from the time I have for reading. The time that I spend with my family takes away from my professional time. The effort I put into professional things often interferes with family time.

This whole life is a constant, frustrating, and -- in a sense -- ultimately unsuccessful attempt to balance family time with hobby time with work time with exercise time with charitable time with sleeping time, etc., etc. You and I will never have the time to do all that we want to do, and we will always leave things undone that we wanted to do.

Mormonism doesn't cause this, and the disappearance of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would not fix it.

Anybody who is completely satisfied, who has all of the time that he or she could possibly want and has accomplished all that he or she wanted to accomplish, is simply unambitious.

Of course life is full of all sorts of stuff that we want to do but have no time to do. We juggle. But how can you say the Church is not responsible for taking a big chunk of it by teaching us to never say no to a calling and then having a lay church that requires a whole lot of time.

I am not really all the upset about this. I just think the Church needs to understand it takes a lot of its members time especially a member that serves in busy callings. And often it is time taken from the family.

[why me]

Well I am only 48 and I have heard concerns over time Church callings take off and on all my life. Maybe people do feel it more due to various reasons. But if in fact socio economic strains require people to work more should the church modify it time demands for various callings. I recall hearing Pres Hicnkley express concerns over the time it takes to be a bishop. In order to par back the time demands he suggested a bishop spend most of Sunday doing his church work, one night a week for youth and one night a week for visiting ward members. He emphasized delegating more as well. All great ideas. But in reality the tasks that only a bishop can do it going to take more time then this. Especially in a ward with lots of problems.

The church is modifying its position and this is due to society's demands. It cannot function like it did in the past. Of course, much depends on the calling. Some callings take up much time, while others don't. The thing to remember is that a person can always say no to callings. A person is not forced to take them. If down time is needed, then, down time should be taken. To be a member of the lds church doesn't mean that a person needs to be an expert juggler of time. It is okay to drop some balls. And the church is now realizing this...but are the members?

Of course life is full of all sorts of stuff that we want to do but have no time to do. We juggle. But how can you say the Church is not responsible for taking a big chunk of it by teaching us to never say no to a calling and then having a lay church that requires a whole lot of time.

It is okay to say no to a calling. I still remember that all time consuming callings must get permission from the spouse. I am sure that it is still like this.

[Teancum]

The church is modifying its position and this is due to society's demands. It cannot function like it did in the past. Of course, much depends on the calling. Some callings take up much time, while others don't. The thing to remember is that a person can always say no to callings. A person is not forced to take them. If down time is needed, then, down time should be taken. To be a member of the lds church doesn't mean that a person needs to be an expert juggler of time. It is okay to drop some balls. And the church is now realizing this...but are the members?

How often is it really ok to say no? some say not but it is frowned upon. Can a tired bishop really feel good about asking for a release? Guilt is heavy in this area for most active members.