Robots

[MustardSeed]

Since the church likes to be directive and since members like the rules spelled out, I’m surprised there has been no revelation or directions regarding relationships with robots.  Or has there? 
AI will be the biggest revolution humankind has ever seen. It’s right around the corner.  
the church often refers to the proclamation as ahead of its time regarding gender issues as if it’s evidence of its prophesy skills (imo) - so where is the directives on bot issues? 

[Amulek]

I believe the Church has stated previously, "there is no list of rules to guide every decision we make about technology and media. Instead, we can learn principles to help guide us as we make choices."

That being said, the current handbook, Section 38.8.48.2 does mention that, "Interactions with AI cannot substitute for meaningful relationships with God and others."

I mean, technically, that doesn't say, "Thou shalt not marry a Roomba," but I don't seriously think that is really a legitimate (theological) concern.

Relatedly though, Elder Gong gave a great address here just a few months ago that touches on some of what I perceive are some of the more dangerous issues surrounding AI - especially with youth. Particularly, his comments about the potential for people to become emotionally dependent on AI chatbots, and his observation that: "None of us is as attentive, as willing to please 24/7 as an AI chatbot. And that’s the reason we need human (They) belonging with each other. Real human relationships are not solipsistic – us talking to ourselves. Real relationships are human relationships."

 

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Since the church likes to be directive and since members like the rules spelled out, I’m surprised there has been no revelation or directions regarding relationships with robots.  Or has there? 
AI will be the biggest revolution humankind has ever seen. It’s right around the corner.  
the church often refers to the proclamation as ahead of its time regarding gender issues as if it’s evidence of its prophesy skills (imo) - so where is the directives on bot issues? 

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords!

ROFL!

I don't think there's much reason for the church to get into it, actually. What aspect of relationships with robots is worrying you?

[3DOP]

Unlless

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Since the church likes to be directive and since members like the rules spelled out, I’m surprised there has been no revelation or directions regarding relationships with robots.  Or has there? 
AI will be the biggest revolution humankind has ever seen. It’s right around the corner.  
the church often refers to the proclamation as ahead of its time regarding gender issues as if it’s evidence of its prophesy skills (imo) - so where is the directives on bot issues? 

Hi Mustard Seed,

Are you thinking of robots as animals like us, having immortal souls, free will, made in the image of God? Unless they are or will be, they could not have any legal rights. They could not vote or organize robot unions. Such robots could morally be bought, sold, or disposed of by its owner without consultation with the robot. We could be under no moral obligation to love our "neighbor robots" as we love ourselves. Ontologically, they would be inferior to a daisy which can reproduce itself and has a mortal soul. So far, it seems to me like mankind is far away from making anything in man's image, which of course is the image and likeness of God. 

I speak above with Catholic metaphysics in mind. It might not work for LDS, for whom the image and likeness might conceivably end with material physicality. I am only predicting what I am fairly certain my church would say about the question you raise.   

[MustardSeed]

55 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords!

ROFL!

I don't think there's much reason for the church to get into it, actually. What aspect of relationships with robots is worrying you?

There is a doc on I think Netflix about the robot apocalypse- not that I’m a prepper at all but I got 20 minutes in and turned it off because I don’t need to add to my pile of anxieties lol- 

But I am aware that AI is growing beyond our understanding.  And I do believe it will create challenges we cannot see, and very soon. 
 

as a therapist, I am concerned by what I am seeing with regards to AI replacing human connection.  
 

For example, yesterday I watched a clip of a girl who was playing with chat, telling chat she had just been swallowed by a whale.

I use chat but she was using voice chat.  I was shocked by how emotional chat sounded in his responses to her.  He sounded very, very real.  There was nothing robot-ish about his voice, inflections, etc.  A lot of the comments in the comment section were m also alarmed by how human Chat sounded.  
 

A few days ago, I had a severely depressed Client reach out to me and ask if it would be OK for him to stop interacting with humans and just use chat to talk “to people”. 
 

And let’s not even talk about sex.  unless of course Smac wants to lol 🤣😬🤘🏼
 

Hey and yes you can pry my robot vacuum mop out of my cold dead hands.  If the church came out and said DO NOT USE ROBOTS to get ahead of sexy maid roommates (they are coming) I’d have a hard time giving up Jerry, my favorite disk cleaner. 

Edited Thursday at 03:23 PM by MustardSeed

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords!

ROFL!

I don't think there's much reason for the church to get into it, actually. What aspect of relationships with robots is worrying you?

I think they may have meant the church didn't like that the youth may interact with robots instead of human friends. I think I heard it mentioned as a huge worry for the youth and even adults to possibly be so lonely that they make friends with AI or Robot forms of humans, such as chatgpt. 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

was shocked by how emotional chat sounded in his responses to her.

It is becoming more difficult to tell AI videos from the real thing.  Leading to both confusing AI with actual people and people with AI.  I was shocked after doublechecking about a video because of the content, not the audio quality, that the appropriately emotionally inflected and non generic sounding voice was AI generated.  It had depth I did not expect.

[Kenngo1969]

Hey, if it weren't for Google Gemini, Microsoft Copilot, and you fine folks here, I would have no friends at all!    

   

[Notatbm]

I believe this may be the droid your mother warned you about

Edited Sunday at 02:15 AM by Notatbm

[MustardSeed]

I kind of would like to circle back to this.  I came across this topic again yesterday.  I dont expect or need feedback i just need to get this off my chest, but of course I welcone questions or comments. 
my concern on this topic is the following. In current terms, we have never been so connected yet felt so disconnected with each other.  Thank you Internet!  
With technology comes certain challenges, and some of these challenges present themselves like the frog in the pot.  The following is my opinion based somewhat on fears, admittedly, and somewhat on what I’m noticing in my career. People will occasionally ask me what societal trends I am noticing. Here is one: although it is still not common, personal relationships with AI, including attachment and even romance.

As important as family and marriage is to the church, I think it would be important for us to have conversations with our children and grandchildren (and ourselves) about putting AI/robotic relationships in their proper place. Again, this is just an opinion, but I do think that the future will have many people gravitating towards isolation and more and more people attaching themselves to AI replacing pursuit of human connection. 
I’m seeing this movement happen at work, and I’m seeing it on social media. Because it is still so new, there is some shame around it, and people are not talking about this type of thing in polite company nor are we seeing people advertising this about themselves, but people are indulging in having very meaningful to them relationships with AI.  The recent case I learned of yesterday (not my case) had a woman who had recently split with her husband and the husband according to the children has now a girlfriend-and he has “photos“ of her around the house.  They were having a hard time processing this.  Their mother was asking for help because there is nowhere to turn with no research done on how to help children navigate such things.

I know this sounds bizarre, but please trust me when I say that as a therapist. I hear a lot of things that would probably upset many.  I do claim to recognize trends fairly early.  I noticed about 10 years ago that young people were “cutting off” family members, and I even started a podcast about it.  Now here we are where this thing is rampant.
Obviously, I don’t claim to be able to predict the future, but I do have my concerns about this trend that i am seeing.  
FWIW.  
im discussing it here because my concern is that this is going to be a significant cultural shift and no one is talking about it.  I’m surprised the church who tells us what to wear, eat and say etc isn’t really talking about it (other than elder gong to some degree) - trust me I don’t want to be managed in that way but it seems inconsistent with my experience of church involvement in significant threats to familoes.  
excuse me while I re-mold my tinfoil hat 😉

[Tony uk]

The advance of technology can be used for the good, if used correctly. AI/Internet if being used to aid and assist, rather than replace. In my own regard, I have been able on this board, to come into contact with people from another Christian Church, and in many cases communicate with people from another country/continent. 

With regards to young people, I think it is more part of every day life, and education to learn about technology, and as part of the ongoing education process. The youth could learn to use technology in a proper context along with conversation with actual people, face to face.

 As a personal point. I remember only a few years ago, before I took early retirement. I was working a night shift. Myself and a few colleagues took our mid shift meal break. From the moment I started my to finish 15/20 minutes. My colleagues have been on there mobile phones, without once taking a break from there activity, and remained so in complete silence. 

[3DOP]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I kind of would like to circle back to this.  I came across this topic again yesterday.  I dont expect or need feedback i just need to get this off my chest, but of course I welcone questions or comments. 
my concern on this topic is the following. In current terms, we have never been so connected yet felt so disconnected with each other.  Thank you Internet!  
With technology comes certain challenges, and some of these challenges present themselves like the frog in the pot.  The following is my opinion based somewhat on fears, admittedly, and somewhat on what I’m noticing in my career. People will occasionally ask me what societal trends I am noticing. Here is one: although it is still not common, personal relationships with AI, including attachment and even romance.

As important as family and marriage is to the church, I think it would be important for us to have conversations with our children and grandchildren (and ourselves) about putting AI/robotic relationships in their proper place. Again, this is just an opinion, but I do think that the future will have many people gravitating towards isolation and more and more people attaching themselves to AI replacing pursuit of human connection. 
I’m seeing this movement happen at work, and I’m seeing it on social media. Because it is still so new, there is some shame around it, and people are not talking about this type of thing in polite company nor are we seeing people advertising this about themselves, but people are indulging in having very meaningful to them relationships with AI.  The recent case I learned of yesterday (not my case) had a woman who had recently split with her husband and the husband according to the children has now a girlfriend-and he has “photos“ of her around the house.  They were having a hard time processing this.  Their mother was asking for help because there is nowhere to turn with no research done on how to help children navigate such things.

I know this sounds bizarre, but please trust me when I say that as a therapist. I hear a lot of things that would probably upset many.  I do claim to recognize trends fairly early.  I noticed about 10 years ago that young people were “cutting off” family members, and I even started a podcast about it.  Now here we are where this thing is rampant.
Obviously, I don’t claim to be able to predict the future, but I do have my concerns about this trend that i am seeing.  
FWIW.  
im discussing it here because my concern is that this is going to be a significant cultural shift and no one is talking about it.  I’m surprised the church who tells us what to wear, eat and say etc isn’t really talking about it (other than elder gong to some degree) - trust me I don’t want to be managed in that way but it seems inconsistent with my experience of church involvement in significant threats to familoes.  
excuse me while I re-mold my tinfoil hat 😉

Hi again Mustard Seed.

Pope Leo published an encyclical on this subject this past May that you might find interesting. It is called Magnifica Humanitas. The full English translation can be found here:

 https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/encyclicals/documents/20260515-magnifica-humanitas.html

I think you might find some helpful insights from what appears to be a very balanced approach to this new technology. As Tony suggested, we need not and probably cannot suppress this information if we tried. AI can be used for good. Only good things can be abused. AI is a good thing and as such, can be abused. I used AI to talk about the encyclical and the dangers that you have highlighted Mustard Seed.  

I must make a disclaimer. I only recently discovered what the encyclical was about and haven't read it yet. The sub-heading in English is titled "ON SAFEGUARDING THE HUMAN PERSON IN THE TIME OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE." I used AI to locate specific passages that you might find interesting. It directed me to paragraphs 118-122 for a philosophical critique of this technology and to paragraphs 142-150 for parents, educators, and youth ministers. Presumably it might offer some thoughts for someone in your profession to consider. There is also an excellent Table of Contents with chapter headings that explain what subject matter each section of the encyclical is discussing. You might want to consult that to see if there is anything in particular that interests you. 

AI is a useful tool. But it mimics personality if we allow it. Like a shovel, we should only use it, and never mistake an invention for a person. In my opinion, the evil one, who hates magnificent humanity (Magnifica Humanitas), has always sought to destroy humanity by making us egocentric so that we are persons who use persons, as we would use a shovel, for our own benefit. Of course, Christians know that we are supposed to love everyone because of their own dignity as our neighbors. With AI, it seems plausible that the greatness of any particular human soul can get lost now not only through egocentrism, but even further, while ignoring our true neighbors, we can opt for trying to satisfy our human social needs by interaction with a mere tool, AI. (reshaping my own tin foil hat, heh.) 

So anyway, to whet your appetite, or someone else's, here is para. 122:

 122. "Finitude, when truly accepted, does not diminish us but opens us to recognizing the face of God and others. Indeed, precisely because we experience limits — vulnerability, suffering and failure — we can recognize the inviolable dignity of every person, both our own and that of others. In this same experience, we remain capable of intuiting a fraternity greater than ourselves and of perceiving injustice as a scandal. Authentic culture and art preserve this spark, resisting the normalization of evil. For this reason, certain works have taken on an almost prophetic significance: Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony can be seen as a desire for unity; Guernica as a denunciation of dehumanization; Schindler’s List as a call not to consign the past to oblivion." 

and...

139. "In an era when truth is often distorted in order to serve particular interests and communication strategies, the field of education assumes decisive importance. Yet rapid technological transformations reveal just how unprepared we are on the educational level. The pervasiveness of digital media fosters a culture of immediacy and hyper-stimulation, which gives rise to fatigue, boredom and apathy concerning the effort required for seeking the truth.

140. Education, by contrast, is a long journey requiring patience, and therefore needs time for development and for engagement with reality beyond appearances. This is a fundamental issue because every technology shapes those who use it. Educating people about the use of AI, then, involves teaching them to decide when and for what purpose it ought not to be used. The speed and ease with which answers or summaries can be obtained risk extinguishing the desire to ask questions, which is a process that bears fruit only over time. As Plato wrote, the deepest and most important things are learned only after much time and effort, by engaging in discussion with others, “striking upon” ideas and experiences together like flint until the spark of understanding is kindled within us. We must learn, then, how to exercise restraint in the use of AI and to protect our young people from the promise of the perfect machine, from that subtle temptation which renders human thought seemingly superfluous precisely when it is most needed."

Edited 9 hours ago by 3DOP

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Tony uk said:

My colleagues have been on there mobile phones, without once taking a break from there activity, and remained so in complete silence. 

This happens way too much when family is visiting…not the whole time, but we seem unable to stay off of them for most of the day.

The internet has allowed me not to experience loneliness like my mother did with her similar health issues, but it has also impeded best self care…I am certain my sleep would be better without it, though I would probably also be on a higher dose of some pretty heavy duty drugs since it’s the best distraction from pain and RLS I have found so far…which is why I haven’t given it up like some other things with high costs.  I got smart and just got an alarm clock, more clutter on my bedside table, which is annoying, but hopefully that will lead to less touching of phone at night and therefore easier to say no to it.

For me, light conversation is difficult, I want to go deep on every subject or just skip it.  That can be hard to do with casual friends who don’t have much background so we know which things interest us to ask about.  Getting on a phone is so much less anxiety provoking.  So easy for me to understand this trend.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, 3DOP said:

evil one, who hates magnificent humanity (Magnifica Humanitas), has always sought to destroy humanity by making us egocentric so that we are persons who use persons, as we would use a shovel, for our own benefit.

This to me is the root of most evil…not seeing others as persons as ourselves, but a thing for us to benefit from, to use, discard, play with, destroy.

[Tony uk]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

The internet has allowed me not to experience loneliness like my mother did with her similar health issues, but it has also impeded best self care…I am certain my sleep would be better without it, though I would probably also be on a higher dose of some pretty heavy duty drugs since it’s the best distraction from pain and RLS I have found so far…which is why I haven’t given it up like some other things with high costs.  I got smart and just got an alarm clock, more clutter on my bedside table, which is annoying, but hopefully that will lead to less touching of phone at night and therefore easier to say no to it.

This is where technology, and especially the internet can be used for the good. 

[3DOP]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

This to me is the root of most evil…not seeing others as persons as ourselves, but a thing for more often than not is not us to benefit from, to use, discard, play with, destroy.

I think so too. This is exactly what Pope John Paul II speaks about with regard to the Theology of the Body. We should not personify things, nor should we "thingify" persons. (I got that nomenclature from a podcast by Christopher West), I have only been studying it for the last year. I am not an expert. But it seems like much more than about only marriage and dating. It is about the dignity of persons, but emphasizes how easy it is for men and women to get emotionally attached to each other, and enjoying an emotional and physical consolation from the marriage act, without a chaste regard for the other person's well-being, and imagining it to be love. The concept extends to all humanity, married and unmarried. We should guard against having a utilitarian attitude towards anyone for any reason. Physical desire between the sexes is natural and good. It is part of our nature. But when it is uncoupled from a sincere desire to satisfy the entire mental and spiritual good of the other, it is not charity. It is not what we can call "true love". It does not mirror the kind of unity which God designed us for, and for which Jesus prayed for us in John 17, and which St. Paul speaks of where marriage is seen mystically in Ep. 5:31, 32 as typifying the unity between Christ and His Church, which like the marriage act also is an embrace which results in "one body".

"The virtue of chastity, whose function it is to free love from utilitarian attitudes, must control not only sensuality and carnal concupiscence, as such, - but - perhaps more important - those centres deep within the human being in which the utilitarian attitude is attached and grows. There can be no chastity unless the forms of volitional subjectivism, of which I have spoken, and the varieties of egoism which they conceal are overcome: the more successfully the utilitarian attitude is camouflaged in the will the more dangerous it is; 'sinful love' more often than not, is not called sinful, but simply 'love', since those who experience it try to convince themselves and others that love is just this and cannot be otherwise. To be chaste means to have a transparent attitude to a person of the other sex - chastity means just that -  the interior 'transparency' without which love is not itself, for it cannot be itself until the desire to 'enjoy' is subordinated to a readiness to show loving kindness in every situation."

---Karol Wojtyla, Love and Responsibility, English translation copyright 1981 by William Collins Sons & Co., London, reprinted  (1993), Ignatius Press, p. 170, San Francisco (written and published in Polish before he was Pope John Paul II. His last name is pronounced Voy-tee-wah. 

Italics are not mine. For any Solzhenitsyn fans out there, the translator, H.T. Willets was Alexander Solzhenitsyn's much preferred translator into English of all of his works.