Who has read Jeff Strong why people leave and what we can learn from them?

[grapevine]

Was a Bishop and Mission President and had children leave the church.  One in Mtc.  Said there was poorer retention since the early 2000’s.  Not every person the missionaries teach and baptize will stay active.   Ot every faithful parent will have children that stay active.

 

however are we to learn from people that leave?  If the church is true and leaders called of God what are we to learn from people that don’t stay faithful?  Do the scriptures saying anything positive about Adam and Eve’s children that did t stay faithful?  Laman and Lemuel, people that didn’t hold to iron orod great aand spacious building?

 

Most faithful parents want there children to stay active.  Learn for. People wanting to go to Celestidal Kingdom.  Those that leave are not listening to the spirit and people wanting loved ones to partake of the spirit.  Go to Celestial Kingdom.  Don’t talk about wayward children in positive light.  Pray for wayward family members to return. Ot validate there descriptions, what did we learn when prodigal son left?  No happiness there.

[BlipBlap]

At a most basic level, I think it would depend on why they left and what they did after leaving.

[Stargazer]

The Parable of the Sower.

Jesus tells of a farmer who sows seed indiscriminately. Some seed falls on the path with no soil, some on rocky ground with little soil, some on soil which contains thorns, and some on good soil. In the first case, the seed is taken away; in the second and third soils, the seed fails to produce a crop; but when it falls on good soil, it grows and yields thirty-, sixty-, or a hundred-fold.

Jesus later explains to his disciples that the seed represents the Gospel, the sower represents anyone who proclaims it, and the various soils represent people's responses to it.

We cannot expect 100% retention. And those who try to use less than 100% retention as evidence against the Church are barking up the wrong tree.

[BlipBlap]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

The Parable of the Sower.

Jesus tells of a farmer who sows seed indiscriminately. Some seed falls on the path with no soil, some on rocky ground with little soil, some on soil which contains thorns, and some on good soil. In the first case, the seed is taken away; in the second and third soils, the seed fails to produce a crop; but when it falls on good soil, it grows and yields thirty-, sixty-, or a hundred-fold.

Jesus later explains to his disciples that the seed represents the Gospel, the sower represents anyone who proclaims it, and the various soils represent people's responses to it.

We cannot expect 100% retention. And those who try to use less than 100% retention as evidence against the Church are barking up the wrong tree.

I would hope that no one seriously tries to use a less than 100% retention rate as evidence against the church given that no large church has such.

[manol]

4 hours ago, grapevine said:

however are we to learn from people that leave? 

What are we here to do?

We are here to become the same manner of men and women as Christ, which means we are here to develop and embody and radiate the pure love of Christ.  The pure love of Christ is a state of being that fills a person and if unimpeded it shows up in everything they do. 

Now it doesn't require much growth to love someone if they agree with us about everything that matters to us.  But we came here to grow.  Therefore...

People we disagree with, and especially people we disagree with strongly about things that matter to us, are giving us a wonderful gift: They are giving us the opportunity to develop spiritual muscles that would otherwise go unused.  They are giving us the opportunity to love where love does not come easy.  They are giving us an opportunity to develop the pure love of Christ.  This goes for those who stay in the Church as they look at those who leave, and it goes for those who leave the Church as they look back at the Church and those who stay. 

We are each on the same journey towards becoming the same manner of man or woman as Christ whether that is presently our focus or not, whether we are even aware of it or not, whether we are learning the easy way or the hard way, regardless of how many mistakes we make, and regardless of how different all outward appearances may be. 

In my opinion.

Edited 11 hours ago by manol

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, BlipBlap said:

I would hope that no one seriously tries to use a less than 100% retention rate as evidence against the church given that no large church has such.

I was exaggerating a bit. 

If you spend some time on the Internet among the Ex- and Anti-Mormon crowd, and you'll find that they are very smug about perfectly normal retention rates, which are obviously going to be much less than 100%. 

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, manol said:

People we disagree with, and especially people we disagree with strongly about things that matter to us, are giving us a wonderful gift: They are giving us the opportunity to develop spiritual muscles that would otherwise go unused.  They are giving us the opportunity to love where love does not come easy.  They are giving us an opportunity to develop the pure love of Christ.  This goes for those who stay in the Church as they look at those who leave, and it goes for those who leave the Church as they look back at the Church and those who stay. 

Right on, brother!  

[Stargazer]

In the recent FAIR conference, one of the speakers, Brian C. Hales, in his talk "Joseph Smith: A Reluctant Polygamist" mentions Strong's book. In particular, Hales points to the part of the book dealing with plural marriage and says "The Church's polygamy legacy is sifting the current generation of Latter-day Saints." Hales quoted his late wife as saying that just as the Saints of Joseph's time struggled to live the law of plural marriage, some of today's Saints struggle to believe it was a commandment. He added: "If polygamy feels like an obstacle to belief, it may have been designed that way."

It seems to me that the Lord uses difficult teachings that are true, to sift for faithfulness among His Saints. We recently had an investigator the missionaries were teaching, and he was quite enthusiastic about the Church until he was taught about the Word of Wisdom and tithing. At that point he went incognito.

Edited 9 hours ago by Stargazer

[Pyreaux]

11 hours ago, grapevine said:

Was a Bishop and Mission President and had children leave the church.  One in Mtc.  Said there was poorer retention since the early 2000’s.  Not every person the missionaries teach and baptize will stay active.   Ot every faithful parent will have children that stay active.

however are we to learn from people that leave?  If the church is true and leaders called of God what are we to learn from people that don’t stay faithful?  Do the scriptures saying anything positive about Adam and Eve’s children that did t stay faithful?  Laman and Lemuel, people that didn’t hold to iron orod great aand spacious building?

Most faithful parents want there children to stay active.  Learn for. People wanting to go to Celestidal Kingdom.  Those that leave are not listening to the spirit and people wanting loved ones to partake of the spirit.  Go to Celestial Kingdom.  Don’t talk about wayward children in positive light.  Pray for wayward family members to return. Ot validate there descriptions, what did we learn when prodigal son left?  No happiness there.

This reminds me of an LDS in-joke/stereotype that the bishop’s kids are supposedly the ones who are most rebellious or mischievous despite having a father who is expected to be the top spiritual example. It’s "bishop’s kid syndrome" people theorize is caused by feeling scrutinized because everyone knows who their dad is. A bishop’s calling can consume a lot of family time, which some kids may resent. When a bishop’s child misbehaves, people mostly notice because of who their parent is. The church standards are high for being full of imperfect people acting/trying to be perfect, like their dad.

The wave of disability-bias can fit into that framework too. If the new generation has ADHD, autism, mental-health struggles, chronic limitations, or simply doesn't conform well to the expected LDS developmental template, it can be compounded when we factor in generational change, changing attitudes toward authority, internet, education, sexuality and gender norms, institutional trust, and broader secularization. The child may experience a culture that repeatedly interprets their increasing differences as moral or spiritual shortcomings. Add on the high-demand religious environment can amplify those forces.

A lot of the traditional LDS social machinery works differently. It isn't actually equally accessible to everyone. And treated almost Job-like, the difficulty becomes a divine test or burden given to the person we presume is capable of bearing it. Unintentionally making the child into the problem.

The Saints continue to struggle to be perfect and Gen Z has a low tolerance for a mismatch between claimed standards and observed reality. Actual humans inevitably produce hypocrisy, favoritism, inconsistency, and struggling members who don't fit the mold. Older generations may have been more willing to compartmentalize those things "The gospel is true even if the Saints aren't." The disability issue makes the same contradiction even more visible. If someone literally cannot meet the expected norm can expose the difference between the gospel's theological claim of grace and the community's practical expectations of conformity. The kids may be rejecting the demand that everyone pretend the imperfection isn't there. It's potentially a crisis of credibility.

Edited 4 hours ago by Pyreaux

[Stargazer]

42 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

The Saints continue to struggle to be perfect and Gen Z has a low tolerance for a mismatch between claimed standards and observed reality.

Gen Z has the "advantage" of the world being permanently and ubiquitously online, with everything hanging out, as it were. I grew up without that "advantage." Every Gen-Z'er is used to hypocrisy in high spaces and places. 

 

[Notatbm]

According to this guy… there is NO reason to leave:

 

i grew up with hardliner parents, family and church leaders. They talk just like this. 
 

Perhaps people who are like this are one of the things that drive others away.. it is part of why I’m out. 

[Calm]

11 hours ago, grapevine said:

If the church is true and leaders called of God

What are the implications of the above in your view beyond the Church has great value in God’s eyes both now and for eternal purposes…and therefore we should value it as well?

Edited 4 hours ago by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Unintentionally making the child into the problem.

Well mentioned.  
 

This can happen as you mentioned as well to anyone who deviates from the traditional norms.

I would rephrase it as differences rather than disabilities as not all are dysfunctional or a system that isn’t working in the way it’s meant to, but a different type of system (autism can be dysfunctional if it interferes with communication and self care, but isn’t inherently so).

Plus there are roles (single and/or childless) that are common in any society,  but still may not fit smoothly into the ‘norm’ the Church teachings typically focus on, which are those who aim for heterosexual marriage (usually in the temple, but could function in most day to day church stuff without being temple ready) straight from youth, achieve this goal, and have kids.  Then once empty nesters and retired, they are healthy and free enough to either go on a mission or serve at home.   However, if always single or they become widowed, it is harder from what I hear to feel there is a place one naturally fits in the Church.  This has and is continuing to change as we have had single women as General Officers, my divorced sister just got called as RS President for example.  We don’t have single bishops as far as I am aware, but I assume it’s not an issue for EQ presidents.  I wonder if a never married man can be a General Authority though.  Anyone know?  And if not in a lifetime calling, would they be released if their wife died?

From what I have been told those not currently married sometimes have great difficulty feeling they are valued.  Much depends on the bishop and whether he will considered someone without children or not married a calling with youth or other leadership.  

Given the larger numbers of unmarried in the Church these days, I suspect there will be a higher rate of adaptation for inclusion of at least some outside the traditional married with children norm than there has in the past.  

Edited 3 hours ago by Calm

[MrShorty]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Quoting Brian Hales: If polygamy feels like an obstacle to belief, it may have been designed that way.

More and more, this is becoming important to my own faith crisis. How far does this go? One could just as easily say, if genocide feels like an obstacle to belief, it may have been designed that way and reference Saul and Samuel and the Amalekites. Or maybe human sacrifice and reference Abraham. Or racial segregation and the early 20th century church. I'm coming to really question this "teleological suspension of ethics" (Kierkegaard). Do we really believe that God through prophets throws practices at us that we find morally and ethically repugnant just to see if we will override our sense of right and wrong? And then condemn us if we choose to doubt the prophet and stick by our own sense of right and wrong? I don't know, but this feels more like a "trickster" God.

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

Do we really believe that God through prophets throws practices at us that we find morally and ethically repugnant just to see if we will override our sense of right and wrong?

This seems strange given our teaching of the light of Christ which would indicate in at least some ways we should depend on our internal perceptions of right and wrong and not automatically take a man’s word no matter who they are that they can tell us better than the gift of the light of Christ what God wants us to do.  

Our need to harmonize teachings throughout time gets in the way imo of learning to trust the light of Christ.