General Conference talk on the understanding of the Godhead

[GoCeltics]

On 7/1/2026 at 3:41 PM, InCognitus said:

This of course does not change the fact of what I said, which was, "According to Joseph Smith's view, God was God (divine) before he was once a man."

Who created him as a man?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Who created him as a man?

What makes us human is eternal imo.  Do you mean who gave him a physical form as I believe that is what Joseph meant?

We assume if the Father went through mortality as the Son did…which seems logical from what Jesus himself said (John 5:19…btw, how do nonLDS Christians explain this passage?)…the Father had parents and a family life like Jesus.

Edited July 3 by Calm

[InCognitus]

On 7/3/2026 at 7:19 AM, GoCeltics said:

Who created him as a man?

What Calm said.

God has created worlds without number (Moses 1:33).  And God created the world that he would dwell on, and he created the first man and woman on that world and was born unto parents on that world.  That's what fits according to the revelations (scriptures) and what Joseph Smith taught.

Edited July 5 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 6/28/2026 at 8:46 PM, InCognitus said:

Right, there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God is God from all eternity.

Ok, so you believe Heavenly Father became a God before he became the God and Heavenly Father of us.  
Is that correct?

I can't remember the thread where you mentioned deification.

Others besides Irenaeus had similar ideas about deification, most notably Clement of Alexandria.

He wrote: "The Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God."
(Exhortation to the Greeks 1)

Another famous passage: "He who obeys the Lord... becomes a god while still moving about in the 
flesh" (Stromata VII.10).

I believe they erred in their interpretation of scripture.  Could there be a greater temptation 
than wanting to be a god?  I would say no.

LDS theology takes it further; teaching members that they may become Gods who create and populate 
their own worlds. Another twist is that Latter-day Saints are taught they will be made "equal in 
power, and in might, and in dominion" as Heavenly Father himself (Doctrine and Covenants 76:92-95).

Orson Pratt added a few more qualities - "All these Gods are equal in power, in glory, in dominion, 
and in the possession of all things; each possesses a fulness of truth, of knowledge, of wisdom, 
of light, of intelligence ; each governs himself in all things by his own attributes, and is filled 
with love, goodness, mercy, and justice towards all. The fulness of all these attributes is what 
constitutes God. "God is Light." "God is Love." "God is Truth." The Gods are one in the qualities 
and attributes".

"Each person is called God, not because of his substance, neither because of the shape and size 
of the substance, but because of the qualities which dwell in the substance" (The Seer).

If this is what constitutes God, then this further re-enforces the LDS teaching that Heavenly Father 
was not God from all eternity to eternity.

[theplains]

On 6/29/2026 at 10:43 AM, InCognitus said:

Read the King Follet discourse carefully.  According to Joseph Smith's view, God was God (divine) before he was once a man, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to lay down his life and take it up again as he says he did in that discourse (the same as Jesus Christ did).

Back on March 2, I provided 10+ LDS teachings, beyond the King Follett Discourse, which show Heavenly 
Father and Heavenly Mother were not always Gods and they were not always heavenly parents. None 
of these LDS teachings are supported by scripture.  

Joseph Smith's view that you mentioned above does not square with all the provided teachings. LDS leaders
seem to have thrown several things at the wall to see which would stick.

You never did explain how you believe Heavenly Mother became a God and under what circumstances.

The Family: A Proclamation to the World says, "All human beings—male and female—are created in 
the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, 
each has a divine nature and destiny".

But I don't equate this to you being a deity in embryo right now.  Apparently you become a deity
in the future, in the first resurrection. It seems you can also become a god in the second 
resurrection too ("Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first 
resurrection, in the next resurrection" ... Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20).

[GoCeltics]

On 7/3/2026 at 4:01 PM, Calm said:

What makes us human is eternal imo.  Do you mean who gave him a physical form as I believe that is what Joseph meant?

We assume if the Father went through mortality as the Son did…which seems logical from what Jesus himself said (John 5:19…btw, how do nonLDS Christians explain this passage?)…the Father had parents and a family life like Jesus.

@InCognitus

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

The phrase 'he doeth' is in the present tense. I don't interpret this as Jesus having spirit children or entering into marriage.

Apparently both you and Incognitus concur with Joseph Smith's teaching there are Gods above Heavenly Father and that our Father is merely one in an endless chain with his own heavenly parents.  That would clarify how he received a spiritual body prior to obtaining a mortal one.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

there are Gods above Heavenly Father

Nope.  

[longview]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

3 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

there are Gods above Heavenly Father

Nope.  

Whuh?

You do not believe that HF went through a mortal probation? Which implies that He obtained a spirit body in the pre-existence (that was PRIOR to OUR pre-existence)? Who was His Creator? I thought you already know there are ENDLESS generations of HF presiding over successive Plan of Happiness?

Our "Grandfather" God has a larger "dominion" than OUR current HF. The more generations you preside over, the more dominions become larger (numberless as the sands of the seashore).

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, longview said:

Whuh?

You do not believe that HF went through a mortal probation? Which implies that He obtained a spirit body in the pre-existence (that was PRIOR to OUR pre-existence)? Who was His Creator? I thought you already know there are ENDLESS generations of HF presiding over successive Plan of Happiness?

Our "Grandfather" God has a larger "dominion" than OUR current HF. The more generations you preside over, the more dominions become larger (numberless as the sands of the seashore).

No, you misunderstand.  The only part the nope applied to was what I quoted.
 

I believe in the perfect oneness that God the Father has promised.  I believe hierarchies are a mortal necessity because we can’t truly be one. 

[The Nehor]

On 7/3/2026 at 8:19 AM, GoCeltics said:

Who created him as a man?

He did it himself by injecting himself with that sweet testosterone boyjuice.

Some are pushed around by destiny. Others seize control of their own lives.

[Senator]

1 hour ago, longview said:

Whuh?

You do not believe that HF went through a mortal probation? Which implies that He obtained a spirit body in the pre-existence (that was PRIOR to OUR pre-existence)? Who was His Creator? I thought you already know there are ENDLESS generations of HF presiding over successive Plan of Happiness?

Our "Grandfather" God has a larger "dominion" than OUR current HF. The more generations you preside over, the more dominions become larger (numberless as the sands of the seashore).

Can you demonstrate this scripturally?

It’s an extrapolated doctrine.

Edited July 7 by Senator

[webbles]

3 hours ago, longview said:

Whuh?

You do not believe that HF went through a mortal probation? Which implies that He obtained a spirit body in the pre-existence (that was PRIOR to OUR pre-existence)? Who was His Creator? I thought you already know there are ENDLESS generations of HF presiding over successive Plan of Happiness?

Our "Grandfather" God has a larger "dominion" than OUR current HF. The more generations you preside over, the more dominions become larger (numberless as the sands of the seashore).

I've gone back and forth.  A relative of mine who is probably far better read in deep doctrine (his library had 1000s of books that he had personally read) argued (and was fairly convincing to me) that God is the most intelligent and he figured out everything (going from spirit essence to spirit body to physical body to full resurrected body) and then turned to the rest of us and provided a plan to help us accomplish what He did all by Himself.  So God is the first to do it all, there isn't any before Him.

[Calm]

22 hours ago, webbles said:

I've gone back and forth.  A relative of mine who is probably far better read in deep doctrine (his library had 1000s of books that he had personally read) argued (and was fairly convincing to me) that God is the most intelligent and he figured out everything (going from spirit essence to spirit body to physical body to full resurrected body) and then turned to the rest of us and provided a plan to help us accomplish what He did all by Himself.  So God is the first to do it all, there isn't any before Him.

My experience is the ones with broader reading tend to go this direction or just leave it as an unknown (my preference since nothing is satisfying since I can’t wrap my head around an eternal past where there is always a time before, I don’t see how anyone mortal can view the reality of time—if it is a reality—accurately, so any solution we propose is highly likely to be wrong), the ones who accept as truth the infinite regress of Gods study primarily those who agree with this speculation.

Edited July 8 by Calm

[GoCeltics]

On 7/7/2026 at 2:56 PM, Calm said:

On 7/7/2026 at 11:24 AM, GoCeltics said:

there are Gods above Heavenly Father

Nope.  

Who formed Heavenly Mother into a God?

[Calm]

4 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

Who formed Heavenly Mother into a God?

Once you know, you can tell us.  
 

Why do you keep asking questions about stuff you must know by now has not been revealed?

[3DOP]

On 7/7/2026 at 5:20 PM, webbles said:

I've gone back and forth.  A relative of mine who is probably far better read in deep doctrine (his library had 1000s of books that he had personally read) argued (and was fairly convincing to me) that God is the most intelligent and he figured out everything (going from spirit essence to spirit body to physical body to full resurrected body) and then turned to the rest of us and provided a plan to help us accomplish what He did all by Himself.  So God is the first to do it all, there isn't any before Him.

Webbles. Hey.

I cannot worship another like myself if it is only because He, or he, is the most intelligent.

You may not have framed it the way your relative would have. Still, I can't picture myself in adoration at the smartest kid in the class. Maybe there is another way to adore Him? It certainly speaks well of him to turn to the rest of us dummies with a plan. I could love a loving friend before I could worship a fellow creature with the highest I.Q.

God help us who have "gone back and forth". I am your fellow pilgrim.

Rory, who goes back and forth too.

 

[Calm]

9 hours ago, 3DOP said:

could love a loving friend before I could worship a fellow creature with the highest I.Q.

We say “intelligence” and “most intelligent” because that is the scriptural label given to our eternal essence so to speak (I doubt we actually understand what this all amounts to).  

Joseph Smith seems to have used “intelligence” interchangeably imo with “spirit”.

speculation follows:

So it may have nothing to do with smarts.  The ability to make conscious choices, be an agent and/or interact with matter and other intelligences seems to me to be the most likely fundamental qualities.  Sentience may be a better word than intelligence in my view.
 

What it boils down to, imo, is in all necessary ways God is the greatest above us, so much further that while we need assistance, he was able to independently progress to the point of being the Creator.  This may qualify as speculation, but a truly independent agent who then after climbing to the highest heights turns around to pull up others…that’s a being worth worshipping, especially since I believe he pulls us up not out of necessity or for his own glory (though it results in that), but out of perfect love.  I believe God delights in the Universe.  And one of his delights is sharing it with others.

I believe God chose his Work and his Glory, which are revealed to be to “bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”.  Combine that with the revealed purpose of man according to God (which means to me the purpose he blessed us with) is joy (meaning God’s joy imo as in “Man is that he might have joy”), seems like God is doing all this eternal work so mankind can be truly filled with pure happiness, even beyond happiness into joy.

We have the example of Satan choosing not to love and respect, so it seems to me God wasn’t forced by ‘programming’ into providing all this for us, but he chose to love us and probably we weren’t that lovable to begin with.  

That is someone who leaves me in awe, who deserves to be worshipped forever not only out of gratitude, but wonder.

Edited July 10 by Calm

[GoCeltics]

On 7/9/2026 at 1:59 PM, Calm said:

Once you know, you can tell us.  
 

Why do you keep asking questions about stuff you must know by now has not been revealed?

While there is a doctrine acknowledging her existence as a God and heavenly parent, there is no explanation of how she attained godhood. I suspect she followed the same plan that you are said to be following now. It’s logical.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

While there is a doctrine acknowledging her existence as a God and heavenly parent, there is no explanation of how she attained godhood. I suspect she followed the same plan that you are said to be following now. It’s logical.

It’s possible.  It’s also logical that she was the first that the Father assisted to reach exaltation so he would be complete since LDS do not see completion until one is part of an eternal couple, sealed in marriage and therefore her path was unique as possibly was the Father’s.  It is even logical that they worked together as one to become the first Creators rather than the Father reaching the heights completely on his own, thus establishing why exaltation requires eternal companionship of male and female. 

Edited July 11 by Calm

[InCognitus]

On 7/6/2026 at 9:42 AM, theplains said:

Ok, so you believe Heavenly Father became a God before he became the God and Heavenly Father of us.  
Is that correct?

No, that’s not correct.  This is what I said in a recent post to you on July 1, where I was commenting on a quote from the King Follet Discourse.  I said:

God is eternally the Most High God who once was a man and he became our God, just as Joseph Smith taught in that same sermon:

"The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 6, King Follett Discourse, p. 354)

On 7/6/2026 at 9:42 AM, theplains said:

I can't remember the thread where you mentioned deification.

Others besides Irenaeus had similar ideas about deification, most notably Clement of Alexandria.

He wrote: "The Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God."
(Exhortation to the Greeks 1)

Another famous passage: "He who obeys the Lord... becomes a god while still moving about in the 
flesh" (Stromata VII.10).

I believe they erred in their interpretation of scripture.  

In my post on May 26, 2025, I provided a list of some of the early Christian Fathers that taught that men become “gods” or are deified (they are “exalted”), and taught that other “gods” exist in reality:

• Clement of Rome (35 AD – 99 AD) – “Saint” (Clement is mentioned in the Bible in Philippians 4:3).
• Justin Martyr (150 AD) - “Saint”
• Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 175 - c. 195) - “Saint”
• Theophilus of Antioch (died approximately 180 AD)
• Clement of Alexandria (c. 155 - c. 220 AD) - “Saint”
• Hippolytus of Rome (c. 170–235 AD) - “Saint”
• Origen (185-254 AD) - Highly regarded as one of the most influential Christian theologians
• Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) - “Saint”
• Athanasius of Alexandria (A.D. 296–373) - “Saint”
• Gregory of Nyssa (c. 335-395) - “Saint”
• Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD) - “Saint"

These men lived the closest to the time of Jesus and the apostles.  Some of them personally knew the apostles and were taught by them, or they were taught by others who were taught by the apostles. These were orthodox Christians.  Many of them are called “Saints”.  Their teachings about other gods and that humans can become gods were not isolated cases, they were widespread teachings, proving that these were fundamental doctrines of early Christianity.  How did they have this doctrine in common among them if it did not originate from a common earlier source?  Did they invent it independently in different parts of the Christian world?

And here you come along nearly two millennia later, separated from their time and culture and the context of their teachings, and say, “I believe they erred in their interpretation of scripture”?  So, it’s you against the corpus of Christian orthodoxy of the first four centuries. You are using the recently developed teachings of modern Christianity to reinterpret the teachings of the early Christians. You can “believe” whatever you want, but the evidence weighs against your opinions of their interpretations.

And if you want to review some of their teachings, here are a few of my posts where I quoted some of the early Christians listed above on this topic:   09/13/2022, 05/07/2023, 10/18/2026, and especially my post on 09/08/2025.  I could provide a lot more where those came from, especially if you want a sample from each of the core orthodox Christian teachers that I listed above (but it would be a very long post).

On 7/6/2026 at 9:42 AM, theplains said:

Could there be a greater temptation 
than wanting to be a god?  I would say no.

Is it a temptation to want to sit with God in his throne?  Why would you consider it a “temptation” to want the very thing that God offers to us?  Is God trying to trick us?

Was Jesus tempting us too when he prayed to his Father so that his disciples would receive the very same “glory” with him and the Father, that Jesus received from his Father?  (John 17:22)   How are these things temptations?  It shows God’s love for us and his desire for us to partake of everything that he enjoys.

[InCognitus]

On 7/6/2026 at 9:45 AM, theplains said:

Back on March 2, I provided 10+ LDS teachings, beyond the King Follett Discourse, which show Heavenly 
Father and Heavenly Mother were not always Gods and they were not always heavenly parents. None 
of these LDS teachings are supported by scripture.  

I read those quotes before and I read them again today, and for all but one of them you are reading more into them than they actually say.  

The one exception is the 1971 New Era article by a BYU professor of Physics and Astronomy (Kent Nielsen) that you misused previously (attributing some of what Nielsen said to Brigham Young).  See my post on 05/26/2025 where I discussed that article extensively.

As for the others, I don’t think anyone denies that God the Father is an “exalted man”.  He has “achieved Godhood” and “progressed to Godhood” in that he was once a man who is now exalted.  But that’s not the same thing as him “becoming God”.  God the Father received exaltation (his body was exalted), and Jesus was exalted (Philippians 2:9).  God the Father’s body was glorified and perfected, and the same goes for Jesus (Hebrews 5:8-9).

God’s “glory” increases through him creating more worlds (he has worlds without number) and bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

And none of these things changes the teaching that God the Father has always been the most intelligent of all eternal beings and the most High God, the God of all other gods.

On 7/6/2026 at 9:45 AM, theplains said:

Joseph Smith's view that you mentioned above does not square with all the provided teachings. LDS leaders
seem to have thrown several things at the wall to see which would stick.

You never did explain how you believe Heavenly Mother became a God and under what circumstances.

See Calm’s response to your same question, here and here.  I agree with what she said.

[InCognitus]

On 7/7/2026 at 9:24 AM, GoCeltics said:

@InCognitus

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

The phrase 'he doeth' is in the present tense. I don't interpret this as Jesus having spirit children or entering into marriage.

So you think God the Father was doing the things that Jesus did at the same time that Jesus did them so Jesus could “see” his Father do those things in the present tense?

I believe God can reveal things to us (past, present, or future) in the present tense.  Don’t you?

On 7/7/2026 at 9:24 AM, GoCeltics said:

Apparently both you and Incognitus concur with Joseph Smith's teaching

I concur with Joseph Smith’s teaching (as far as we have them recorded correctly), just not your spin on it.

On 7/7/2026 at 9:24 AM, GoCeltics said:

there are Gods above Heavenly Father and that our Father is merely one in an endless chain with his own heavenly parents. 

Joseph Smith taught no such thing.  See my post on May 26, 2025 for further information.

[InCognitus]

On 7/9/2026 at 7:34 AM, GoCeltics said:

Who formed Heavenly Mother into a God?

Nobody else talks like this.  In case anyone had any doubt that theplains and GoCeltics are the same person, see the post from theplains on 04/21/2025:

On 4/21/2025 at 12:02 PM, theplains said:

The same thing happens for Heavenly Mother, unless God the Father (and not 
the Father of God the Father) created her on another world, married her, and then formed her into 
a Goddess.

And:

On 4/21/2025 at 12:02 PM, theplains said:

Was it similar too for Heavenly Mother when she was formed into a God?

[InCognitus]

On 7/7/2026 at 4:20 PM, webbles said:

I've gone back and forth.  A relative of mine who is probably far better read in deep doctrine (his library had 1000s of books that he had personally read) argued (and was fairly convincing to me) that God is the most intelligent and he figured out everything (going from spirit essence to spirit body to physical body to full resurrected body) and then turned to the rest of us and provided a plan to help us accomplish what He did all by Himself.  So God is the first to do it all, there isn't any before Him.

This is really the only way to understand what Joseph Smith was teaching in the full context of his sermon, in my opinion, or otherwise you have Joseph Smith contradicting Joseph Smith and the revelations.  It's one of those things that once you see it that way you can't unsee it.  It is entirely consistent all the way through the King Follet Discourse.

I have the King Follet Discourse in an audio file, and I recommend listening to it all the way through, as if you were standing in the audience listening to Joseph Smith teach it.  It really helps with the context.

[GoCeltics]

On 7/11/2026 at 3:09 PM, Calm said:

It’s possible.  It’s also logical that she was the first that the Father assisted to reach exaltation so he would be complete since LDS do not see completion until one is part of an eternal couple, sealed in marriage and therefore her path was unique as possibly was the Father’s.  It is even logical that they worked together as one to become the first Creators rather than the Father reaching the heights completely on his own, thus establishing why exaltation requires eternal companionship of male and female. 

The benefits of celestial marriage I guess. A man cannot be exalted without a woman by his side.

It could even be logical that he was the first that the Mother assisted to reach exaltation.