Elder Gilbert, new Q12 member

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Congrats?  More like condolences.  He gets to work until he dies now.

I would hate it.

There are many who would gladly embrace it. For some having a job like this for life would be a plus. I don’t understand them but they exist.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Not logical.  Just because one man was chosen doesn’t mean that other men weren’t eligible.  I would assume it is not a competition for righteousness, all must meet a certain high, probably very high standard, but after that it is likely qualities in speaking, administration, etc. that matter.

Considering Judas Iscariot supposedly made the cut maybe the standard is malleable.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Considering Judas Iscariot supposedly made the cut maybe the standard is malleable.

I had considered making the same comment, but it’s possible that was a special case.

But you don’t have to go back that far to find other examples given only four of the original modern apostles remained in good standing from the moment they were first called.

Later apostles had it much easier in my view in terms of knowing what would be expected of them and what they could likely expect.  Not that many life changing surprises or unexpected challenges to faith, I am guessing.

Edited February 14 by Calm

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Are you kidding? Those guys all live for being stuck in endless church meetings and missing out on most of their families lives. That’s how they get picked…we found our yes man. Being totally church broke. 

😂

[webbles]

10 hours ago, Notatbm said:

soares looks just like uchdorf lol. A German. 

This made me curious about Elder Soares ancestry since there are a lot of German Brazilians who were baptized in the early days of the church in Brazil.  I found both his parents in family search and traced his geneology.  He is definitely not German.  His father's family has lived in Brazil since pretty much its discovery by Portugal.  He even has Native American ancestry because of some really old ancestors who had Native American wives.  His mother's parents are immigrants from Portugal and Spain.  He is definitely Brazilian, Portuguese, and Spanish, with a very small dash of Native American.

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, webbles said:

This made me curious about Elder Soares ancestry since there are a lot of German Brazilians who were baptized in the early days of the church in Brazil.  I found both his parents in family search and traced his geneology.  He is definitely not German.  His father's family has lived in Brazil since pretty much its discovery by Portugal.  He even has Native American ancestry because of some really old ancestors who had Native American wives.  His mother's parents are immigrants from Portugal and Spain.  He is definitely Brazilian, Portuguese, and Spanish, with a very small dash of Native American.

I think for some (mostly the perpetually upset about something crowd) he’s not the right kind of diversity.   Same with Elder Gong. 

[MrShorty]

Something Elder Gilbert said in his interview with the SL Tribune highlights to me what is the main controversy around his calling to the apostleship. When Stack asked him about people's varying views on the Family Proclamation, Elder Gilbert said, "This is a big tent church." I've been around different "heterodox" LDS spaces for many years, and this has been a controversy for years (Elder Gilbert is only the current, temporary face of the controversy). Is the church trying to be "big tent" or "small tent?" I would say that much of the controversy around Elder Gilbert specifically is that, in recent callings, the policies and actions he has supported seem to suggest more of a "small tent" approach to the church.

It's a difficult controversy to discuss, because "big tent" and "small tent" are rather vague concepts that don't lend themselves to easy definition. I guess we'll see what happens. Personally, I don't see Elder Gilbert as one who is really going to settle the big/small tent question by himself. As the junior apostle, he will have limited influence in the short term over long standing church policies and beliefs and practices. It's difficult to settle this kind of controversy in a brief interview, so I would suggest that, if he wants to settle controversies, he could take this assertion that the church is a "big tent church" and explain what that means to him and how he wants members to implement his vision of a big tent church.

[Peacefully]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Not logical.  Just because one man was chosen doesn’t mean that other men weren’t eligible.  I would assume it is not a competition for righteousness, all must meet a certain high, probably very high standard, but after that it is likely qualities in speaking, administration, etc. that matter.

So there may be thousands or hundreds of thousands in the Church, including many in Africa meeting or exceeding the righteousness standard that all potential apostles must meet.

The most righteous man in the Church may never have given a talk on Sunday or any other time because he has a phobia about public speaking.  Or maybe he’s caring for a disabled wife and daughter.  Or maybe he has to work three jobs and barely knows how to read.  Or maybe he’s got terminal cancer.  Or one of a thousand other reasons or combinations thereof that very righteous men have who haven’t served in high visibility callings.

My guess is there is a massive amount of men who would like to be apostles who don’t qualify for it by any standard and of the massive amount of men in the Church that do qualify, my guess is a good percentage or perhaps even the majority of those who actually qualify have no desire to be one.  Who wants to wear a business suit with a tie all the time? Can they at least travel in casual? Can you imagine seeing an apostle on a plane in a tshirt and jeans? Or having to work until you drop dead or just want to be because of being too ill or worn out?

I think an opportunity was missed to get a black man into the queue for prophet someday. I think there is some bias there, maybe subconsciously. 

[Notatbm]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

This made me curious about Elder Soares ancestry since there are a lot of German Brazilians who were baptized in the early days of the church in Brazil.  I found both his parents in family search and traced his geneology.  He is definitely not German.  His father's family has lived in Brazil since pretty much its discovery by Portugal.  He even has Native American ancestry because of some really old ancestors who had Native American wives.  His mother's parents are immigrants from Portugal and Spain.  He is definitely Brazilian, Portuguese, and Spanish, with a very small dash of Native American.

I didn’t say Soares was a German. I said he looks like one

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I think an opportunity was missed to get a black man into the queue for prophet someday. I think there is some bias there, maybe subconsciously. 

There is definitely bias. It is baked into our history and more than one prophet/apostle etc has some published letters, docs etc that would make the KKK blush. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

26 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

There is definitely bias. It is baked into our history and more than one prophet/apostle etc has some published letters, docs etc that would make the KKK blush. 

Um, KKK blush? Really. As an exmo critic, you really ought to tone it down. There is some really crappy rhetoric in the church’s archive but you belittle it and undermine your credibility when you say it would make the people doing the lynching blush. Get a hold of yourself. 

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Um, KKK blush? Really. As an exmo critic, you really ought to tone it down. There is some really crappy rhetoric in the church’s archive but you belittle it and undermine your credibility when you say it would make the people doing the lynching blush. Get a hold of yourself. 

Read mark e Peterson’s material. It’s like he was lobbying for grand wizard or something. 
 

here’s more:

https://ia801508.us.archive.org/23/items/DelbertStapleyLetter/delbert_stapley_Letter_text.pdf

 

doubt your doubts

Edited February 14 by Notatbm

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

There is definitely bias. It is baked into our history and more than one prophet/apostle etc has some published letters, docs etc that would make the KKK blush. 

Not sure I would go that far but there were racist leaders in the past. 

[Notatbm]

6 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Not sure I would go that far but there were racist leaders in the past. 

Read Delbert Stapley’s letter I posted above. He is a real piece of work and he did that on his quorum of 12 letterhead. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Read mark e Peterson’s material. It’s like he was lobbying for grand wizard or something. 
 

here’s more:

https://ia801508.us.archive.org/23/items/DelbertStapleyLetter/delbert_stapley_Letter_text.pdf

 

I’m familiar with the letter. Brigham Young’s statements on interracial marriage are horrific. What damages your message is that you think the material in there would make clan members who view black people as sub-human, who have no problem with extra judicial killing of the same would somehow blush at this rhetoric. When you make such statements you undermine your own credibility. 

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

 

 

doubt your doubts

There is enough wrong with church history that there is no need to make stuff up. 

[Notatbm]

59 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m familiar with the letter. Brigham Young’s statements on interracial marriage are horrific. What damages your message is that you think the material in there would make clan members who view black people as sub-human, who have no problem with extra judicial killing of the same would somehow blush at this rhetoric. When you make such statements you undermine your own credibility. 

There is enough wrong with church history that there is no need to make stuff up. 

Brigham Young was in favor of killing inter - racial couples specifically black/white.  You are aware of that right? 
 

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."
— Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110 (March 8, 1863) 

im positive the klan would dig that. I don’t need to make stuff up. We had enough prophets run their mouths. 

Edited February 15 by Notatbm
Edited original comment remove children.. fat finger or some such thing

[webbles]

19 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Brigham Young was in favor of killing children near racial couples. You are aware of that right? 
 

"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so."
— Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110 (March 8, 1863) 

im positive the klan would dig that. I don’t need to make stuff up. We had enough prophets run their mouths. 

That is advocating killing the white man.  It isn't advocating killing the child or the black woman.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

20 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Brigham Young was in favor of killing children near racial couples. You are aware of that right? 

Not the child but the parents sure. Do you think this is a beyond the pale for KKK members? Enough to make them blush? The lynching squads? 

[Notatbm]

3 minutes ago, webbles said:

That is advocating killing the white man.  It isn't advocating killing the child or the black woman.

I edited that.. my auto correct /fat finger was off course

[Notatbm]

37 minutes ago, webbles said:

That is advocating killing the white man.  It isn't advocating killing the child or the black woman.

The kkk regularly targeted whites and killed them for sympathizing with blacks. 
 

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/june-21/the-kkk-kills-three-civil-rights-activists

Edited February 15 by Notatbm
Typo and forgot link

[Pyreaux]

It’s easy to throw stones at the speed of change but look at the trajectory. Its more diverse than ever before. You seem to be arguing that a successful professional career is a disqualification for apostleship. As a complainer, if he were not, you’d likely complain they lacked the competence to run a global organization. Your issue isn't with the resume, but apparently with the fact that the calling happened at all.

You keep using 'orthodoxy' as a dirty word. Since when is it prejudiced or extreme for a religious university to expect its faculty to be aligned with its sponsoring religion? You’re framing a basic institutional standard as a 'loyalty oath' to make it sound more sinister. Every organization, secular or religious, seeks leaders who are aligned with their core mission. 

Of course it looks 'corporate' to you, you’ve already discarded the possibility that God is involved. You'll always start with the premise that any choice the Church makes is inherently uninspired. It renders your opinions compromised by a circular logic trap.

Edited February 15 by Pyreaux

[BlueDreams]

19 hours ago, Notatbm said:

soares looks just like uchdorf lol. A German. 

Asians are approx 1% of lds church. African descent is about 5%. Brazilians represent about 8% of the church. One could say Soares is Hispanic I guess so perhaps he can also represent all Hispanics if they will have him. He is white as heck though. 
 

Anyway, asians are over represented  and blacks are not represented at all. Not surprising since Mormons discriminated against black families until recently. Kinda goes along with the demographic of the Q15. They are not ready for a black guy in there yet despite likely many very qualified people available. 

Seeking beat me to it....but seriously, your reactionary posts are shooting whatever credible critiques you have in the foot. It just makes you look like a stereotype of what it looks like to be jaded with the church in one way or another.

For the Record, Soares does not "look german"* And even if he did and was ancestrally german (he's not), he would still be a latino (not hispanic). Brazil is not hispanic (ie. of Spain) but is undoubtedly part of Latin American. He thoroughly fits the culture and ethnic diversity as a caboclo (mixed ancestry indigenous/portugese in brazil). Asian members are approx 1.3 million in asia. But you probably meant, asian americans which is 1%. But there are still more people of asian descent than what you note to insist they're over rep'd. 

I have my concerns with the Church in terms of diversity issues. But representation has been improving. As has outreach. They could do more, but our past is not the only thing that informs our present. Let alone our future. There are things in the current LDS apostleship and general authority make-up that would have had leaders like Peterson absolutely uncomfortable in their day. And what I experienced has shifted so much from what I grew up with as a teen in the church than as an adult now, 20+years later.    

 

*as an aside, my son is a mix of European, African, and indigenous american ancestry. He has similar coloration to Soares (and his dad, specifically). Our daughter when she was young looked asian...so asian that people kept asking if either of us had asian ancestry and a chinese man asked us if we'd adopted her from china, in broken english. She now looks like her indigenous american heritage the most. I mean this lovingly as a mixed woman of mixed children: looks don't say sh*t about cultural heritage. Judging it based on that is heavily a US cultural heritage of racism and strict racial lines. And it's also deeply ignorant. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited February 15 by BlueDreams

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

For the Record, Soares does not "look german"* And even if he did and was ancestrally german (he's not), he would still be a latino (not hispanic). Brazil is not hispanic (ie. of Spain) but is undoubtedly part of Latin American. He thoroughly fits the culture and ethnic diversity as a caboclo (mixed ancestry indigenous/portugese in brazil).

I know all that google is my friend. Point is he looks white. From an outside observer just passing by, he and uchdorf could pass as fellow countrymen. Soares looks as Hispanic or Latino as I do and I’m white. 

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

 

Asian members are approx 1.3 million in asia. But you probably meant, asian americans which is 1%. But there are still more people of asian descent than what you note to insist they're over rep'd. 

blacks far outnumber Asians in the church. No black apostles. 

1 hour ago, BlueDreams said:

I have my concerns with the Church in terms of diversity issues. But representation has been improving. As has outreach. They could do more, but our past is not the only thing that informs our present. Let alone our future. There are things in the current LDS apostleship and general authority make-up that would have had leaders like Peterson absolutely uncomfortable in their day. And what I experienced has shifted so much from what I grew up with as a teen in the church than as an adult now, 20+years later. 
 

my experience of over 40 yrs later is much more drastic. I remember being taught in sun school blacks less valiant, blackface in roadshows and lamanites being portrayed in sun school manuals as lazy. My family even participated in the indian placement program. You know where good white lds families essentially colonize the lifestyle of a Navajo adolescent and teach them to act like white Mormons. Yep we did all that. The guys in charge now??! Some of them were apostles during that time. All of them grew up with that attitude in the church and later probably still believe much of it. The church has a long ways to go. 

Edited February 15 by Notatbm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Point is he looks white.

What does it matter if he looks to you like he is white (I find it interesting that you discount intentionally or not Bluedream’s experience of what Latin Americans look like when they are a large percentage of her extended family) if he is Latin American with mixed race heritage?  Is he less diverse than than someone with darker skin tone but the same genetic/ethnic background somehow? (Serious question as I am not sure about your reasoning and would prefer not to have to rely on guessing)

”blacks far outnumber Asians in the church. No black apostles.”

And Asians of many nationalities have held the Priesthood for far longer in the Church.

But it’s not a competition last I checked to fight for priority among the races in our faith and hopefully there are few members who see it as such.

Edited February 15 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

 

19 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Point is he looks white. From an outside observer just passing by, he and uchdorf could pass as fellow countrymen. Soares looks as Hispanic or Latino as I do and I’m white. 

blacks far outnumber Asians in the church. No black apostles. 

It’s ironic that in your quest to decry prejudice, you’ve reduced a human being with decades of service to nothing more than a demographic. Isn't that the definition of the sort of bias you claim to have grown out of? If the Church called an African Apostle tomorrow, would you actually sustain him? Or would you just move the goalpost? If so, then your concern about representation isn't about the people of Africa, it's just a weapon to use against a leadership you've already reject. Pointless.

Edited February 15 by Pyreaux