Mormon church membership - who to count as members

[Stargazer]

On 9/17/2025 at 1:26 AM, Notatbm said:

I personally believe it is safe to say about 25% or less attend and probably an even smaller percentage pays a full tithe if any at all. So why keep people on the rolls if they by their own behavior demonstrate they don’t want to be? 

Here's the funny thing about that. Most if not all of the notional 75% you cite don't seem to want to leave the church's membership rolls. You think they should be forced out. Maybe the Savior would disagree.

When I was flying home from my mission in Germany in 1974) I spoke with the purser on board the PanAm 747 I was flying in. He happened to be a member of his ward's 70s quorum in his stake in Seattle. In the discussion he mentioned that he was involved in a pilot program in his stake that sent representatives to long-inactive members offering them easy way out of the Church, since they didn't seem to be interested. Surprising fact: virtually nobody wanted out. 

My late wife's excommunicated husband maintained to his dying day that he was still a Mormon, regardless of his actual membership status as "Not a Member."

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by Stargazer

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

When I was on my mission, we participated in a pilot program that involved having the missionaries visit inactive members and invite them to come meet with the bishop to start the process of either (1) renewing their temple recommend; or (2) having their name removed from the records of the church. I was actually kind of surprised at how many people did not want to have their names removed. They weren't interested in participating at all, but they firmly did not want to be out of the church either. 

Nowadays, it's even easier - a couple of clicks, a sprinkling of auto-fill, and you can be out without any fuss. Still, a signification number of people chose to just never bother with it. Maybe they are indifferent, but unless we have some kind of constructive knowledge that says they want out, I don't see the need in proactively trying to remove them (potentially against their will). 

 

I’m betting most don’t want their names removed  because the local leaders will tell their parents. This regardless of the member is 25 or 55. I’m thinking most don’t want to get their parents all in a meltdown over empty chairs in heaven etc. my parents are gone now so the only familial drama would be at family get togethers. They like to structure them around church events like a family temple trip and stuff like that. I can see many holding onto a recommend just so they don’t have to deal with insufferable family members or so they can even associate in some families. My family would double down on church stuff if they knew one was out. Just to put the thumbscrews to you. 
 

Also some parents are pretty vocal about withholding inheritances if a child ( regardless of age) is inactive. The church has even pushed that tactic in the past. 
 

Anyhow there’s lots of reasons. Probably has to do more with dealing with families flipping out more than anything. 

Edited September 19, 2025 by Notatbm

[Notatbm]

20 minutes ago, rpn said:

The Lord's belonging is valid baptism.   And a member who hasn't attended a single church meeting for 75 years,  remains a member with access to the gift of the Holy Ghost.   Why do mortals think they are entitled to exclude members on criteria that God doesn't use?

Then why have the ability to excommunicate at all… who are they to say Jesus doesn’t want them in the flock? 

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

No I don’t give off that vibe. I have a bad attitude about the church, but I have never verbalized anything to anyone unless they ask… and no one ever has

HT experience for me has been the same as you basically. I have lived in the ward nearly ten yrs.. one visit from home teacher two years after we moved in. Change to ministering and again one visit right when program started whenever that was. Have not seen or heard from anyone since. 
 

I do get the annual text from ward clerk for tithing settlement tho so I guess we can tell what they really care about. 
 

I don’t really care if someone visits or calls or not. Anytime anyone wants to brag on ministering ( which I have rarely heard- sounds like it’s even more of a failure than HT) I just roll my eyes. 
 

I am thankful for the reduction in church from three to two hours, not that I go anymore but I mention anyone talks to anyone else anymore. It’s get in, get out. Activities for the youth have been slashed and at least in our stake no ward parties, dinners etc. there is zero social activity. Makes the local evangelical churches look like stellar successes. They at least have community there. 
 

my friend circle is who I work with and a couple vet groups so I’m good. 

I understand some of your complaints, I had similar experiences. But it's really up to the member to be proactive and find out why the visits are lame I guess, something I'd never do in a million years though. The ball is dropped a lot in this area, I was a gung-ho, RS visiting teacher back when it was called that. I loved my visits and the friendships I made. Then when getting different partners, so missed my former ones, they maybe gave me partners that hated doing VT'g because I had to nearly be a stalker to coordinate going. Plus, the ladies we'd visit weren't excited to have us come anyway. So that was when it all changed for me, sadly. 

I'm glad you have your friend circles. I've been wanting to go visit a meeting held every Sunday at my local Harmon's store upstairs that has nothing to do with the church or anti LDS. It's a discussion group where they talk about feelings, and what's happening in the world, and so many topics. I've yet to go, but want to. Now I forgot the name of the meetings' group. 

 

[ksfisher]

18 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Also some parents are pretty vocal about withholding inheritances if a child ( regardless of age) is inactive. The church has even pushed that tactic in the past

CFR on bolder please. 

[teddyaware]

6 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

Then why have the ability to excommunicate at all… who are they to say Jesus doesn’t want them in the flock? 

An abysmally uninformed response. In case you’re unaware, the scriptures set forth several reasons why someone could be excommunicated, but inactivity isn’t one of them.

[Notatbm]

21 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

CFR on bolder please. 

Ask and ye shall receive:

https://archive.org/details/JourneyToBecome

[rpn]

36 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I’m betting most don’t want their names removed  because the local leaders will tell their parents.

No one has to tell parents:   when someone has their names removed, they are no longer connected as children to their parents in their parents records in LDS Tools.   They are no longer sealed to their parents.    That isn't an inheritance thing.   It is a brokenhearted thing.  (Maybe also if you are so short sighted in this then we have a hard time thinking that more money is going to be spent in any good way.)     (And I tend to think pretty silly anyway if you really don't believe in the truth claims then why do you care what church records say or don't say).  

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

No I don’t give off that vibe. I have a bad attitude about the church, but I have never verbalized anything to anyone unless they ask… and no one ever has

HT experience for me has been the same as you basically. I have lived in the ward nearly ten yrs.. one visit from home teacher two years after we moved in. Change to ministering and again one visit right when program started whenever that was. Have not seen or heard from anyone since.

Not a self-starter, then, I guess.

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

 I do get the annual text from ward clerk for tithing settlement tho so I guess we can tell what they really care about. 

The point of tithing settlement is to give you a chance to declare your tithing status. "Hi, brother Notatbm, are you a full, part, or non-tithepayer?" If you don't show up, the bishop takes his best guess. It's a voluntary service for tithe-payers, not a Church Revenue Service investigation, for crying out loud.

I've served in callings that deal with church donations. Security of tithing funds is taken very seriously. Tithing settlement is an opportunity to make sure that what you have paid in matches what the church has recorded what you have paid in, and to make whatever adjustments are needed. It also gives you the opportunity to make sure the bishopric isn't skimming your donations so they can go on a tithing-fueled vacation in Cancun. I was once the home teacher of a family whose husband had been excommunicated because, as ward clerk, he had skimmed off donations for his own use. Although he could have been prosecuted civilly, the church didn't take that route. He was gradually paying the pilfered funds back. And looking forward to the day when he could be rebaptized and have his temple blessings restored.

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

I don’t really care if someone visits or calls or not. Anytime anyone wants to brag on ministering ( which I have rarely heard- sounds like it’s even more of a failure than HT) I just roll my eyes. 

I don't care, either, if someone visits or not. When I've been ill, however, I do get offers of priesthood blessings. But they wouldn't know to bring that up, except that in my calling I need to keep people aware of if I'm going to be there or not. So they find out.

Funny thing, I've never heard anyone bragging about ministering or home teaching. Did you used to hear people doing that?

One thing that I find improved about ministering: no longer having to feel like a failure because you have to monthly report about the people you didn't visit. I have five families on my ministering list. I only ever visit two of them, and those two my companion and I keep watch over because they are elderly and not in good health. The other three are always there. For some reason I haven't been asked to minister to any less actives. Shall I come over to visit you occasionally then?  

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

I am thankful for the reduction in church from three to two hours, not that I go anymore but I mention anyone talks to anyone else anymore. It’s get in, get out. Activities for the youth have been slashed and at least in our stake no ward parties, dinners etc. there is zero social activity. Makes the local evangelical churches look like stellar successes. They at least have community there. 

I'm in England. Church of England service attendance is quite low. There's 23 million baptized members, and they are pleased to report a "surge" in attendance at church lately, by 1.5%. It's now 693,000 average weekly attenders. That's like 3%. Evangelical churches in England are doing better, I think, but finding stats is a bit difficult.

Our own stake has ward and stake parties, dinners, and firesides. My old stake in Washington state was very socially active, too. I get the impression that your stake is dead. So perhaps you shouldn't judge the entire church based on your apparently exceptional part of it.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

I’m betting most don’t want their names removed  because the local leaders will tell their parents.

Interesting bet. But I don't think you know what you're talking about. Stay away long enough and you will forget everything.

I've been in a few bishoprics (usually as ward clerk) and I happened to know that a member or two had asked to be removed from church records. Do you know how I knew? Because their name was no longer listed in the membership roster. The bishop didn't even tell me, as the ward clerk. One of my sons married a girl belonging to one of the breakaways from the old Worldwide Church of God. My daughter in law complained to me that they were "constantly" getting visited by members of the local ward (an exaggeration, probably), and wanted to know how to stop it. I told her that she should tell them to stop coming by (evidently they were actually doing home teaching, instead of whatever it was you were getting), or if it was still a problem he could write a letter to his bishop and asked to have his name removed. Which he did. And guess what? I never got notified! His bishop must have been really sloppy about it.

From what you self-report here, you seem to be in a Utah ward, or in a very LDS-dense area. And everybody is in everyone else's business. As it turns out, most of the rest of the church live in the "mission field." I'm surrounded by non-members. The nearest member lives two miles away from me. I have to drive for 20 minutes to get to church. And the Church is not a surveillance state, unlike what some people seem to think.

And now I'm curious. Why haven't YOU resigned your membership? Still a believer? You don't have to answer, obviously.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

Anyhow there’s lots of reasons. Probably has to do more with dealing with families flipping out more than anything. 

Okay, let’s assume ad arguendo you’re right - that Mormons simply can’t help themselves from "flipping out" whenever somebody leaves.

If that’s true, then why would you want the Church to start purging inactives from the rolls?

Is it really about ‘cleaner PR?' Or is it more about offloading the drama onto the Church, so you can then turn around and complain about yet another thing whenever they do the cutting and families react badly?

 

[Notatbm]

54 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Okay, let’s assume ad arguendo you’re right - that Mormons simply can’t help themselves from "flipping out" whenever somebody leaves.

If that’s true, then why would you want the Church to start purging inactives from the rolls?

Is it really about ‘cleaner PR?' Or is it more about offloading the drama onto the Church, so you can then turn around and complain about yet another thing whenever they do the cutting and families react badly?

I imagine it would be less dramatic if the church did it than when the individual does. Families can always criticize the individual as the prophet does like “lazy learner, lax disciple or taffy puller,” but they can’t criticize the church…. That’s apostasy 

Tons of families have left the church over the whole gay marriage your kids can’t get baptized debacle /fake revelation mess in 2015. They saw how much the leaders really don’t care. I imagine most good Mormons don’t miss families like that anyway….i know  my family prob thinks good riddance to any lgbt supporters judging by the way they talked about those “perverts” in the past. 
 

anywho- they can clean up the roles or not. If they did can you imagine the sudden growth rate the church would experience with baptisms? Of course soon enough the boomers and those ahead of them turning the magic 110yrs old will be dying off like crazy. I prophesy we would actually see a drop in membership numbers once that snowballs. That said the data can always be manipulated to show what they want. 

54 minutes ago, Amulek said:

 

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, rpn said:

No one has to tell parents:   when someone has their names removed, they are no longer connected as children to their parents in their parents records in LDS Tools.   They are no longer sealed to their parents.    That isn't an inheritance thing.   It is a brokenhearted thing.  (Maybe also if you are so short sighted in this then we have a hard time thinking that more money is going to be spent in any good way.)     (And I tend to think pretty silly anyway if you really don't believe in the truth claims then why do you care what church records say or don't say).  

I didn’t say anyone HAD to tell their parents , I said the leaders would do that. 

there are like ten people in my ward who I have never known and never lived around my family who know one of my family members. 
 

I could resign and once one of these people found out, my whole family would know in less than a week without me telling one of em. 
 

Then the crap show starts for a year or two.  Not worth it. 

[ksfisher]

3 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Ask and ye shall receive:

https://archive.org/details/JourneyToBecome

You’ve linked to what appears to be a 20 minute video.  Is there anything on the video that pertains specifically to the church promoting disinheriting inactive children? 

[bluebell]

36 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I didn’t say anyone HAD to tell their parents , I said the leaders would do that. 

there are like ten people in my ward who I have never known and never lived around my family who know one of my family members. 
 

I could resign and once one of these people found out, my whole family would know in less than a week without me telling one of em. 
 

Then the crap show starts for a year or two.  Not worth it. 

I’m unsure of how most leaders would get the parents contact info?

[Notatbm]

15 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

You’ve linked to what appears to be a 20 minute video.  Is there anything on the video that pertains specifically to the church promoting disinheriting inactive children? 

Yes. Watch it.

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Notatbm said:

Ask and ye shall receive:

https://archive.org/details/JourneyToBecome

I watched this.

I was rather impressed by it, actually. But you seem to have hung your hat on the most negative aspect you could find. The video was produced by LDS Philanthropies, and told the story of a particular family, the Mellors, who seemed to be of great financial means. The father of the family did say that if a child of his went off the rails he would not feel it advisable to give them a large inheritance, due to the experiences of others who had landed their adult children with large inheritances, and due to their lifestyles those inheritances had brought nothing but ruin to them. He said that in that case he would prefer to give his money to charity rather than to his wayward children. A friend of his had suggested a path that involved creating a family charitable foundation funded by the Mellor's wealth, with him, his wife, and his children as trustees. They decide together on an ongoing basis where the money should go, and I got the impression that a portion of that would go to LDS Philanthropies. The children also contribute a portion of their own funds to the foundation, so that they have a "stake" in it.

And of course you've hung your hat on the Dad saying he would withhold an inheritance from a child because the child had rejected the teachings of the church and was no longer living according to its moral principles. How horrible! How dare the Dad say this!

Note that the Church didn't say that was what members should do. It was what this one apparently quite rich person has decided to do. Of course you choose to interpret this as advice from the Church. Which might be why this video was withdrawn from the Philanthropies website, because people with hair-trigger anti-Mormon sentiments found the fault you have.

No doubt you've heard stories of people who win big in lotteries, and a few years later are worse off than they were before. Do you seriously think that a loving father should gift a large sum of money to one of his children, knowing that the child is likely going to turn that instant wealth into a black hole that will suck him in? Even gifting it in installments can cause irreparable damage. 

The problem is UNEARNED WEALTH. And if a parent does not believe that his or her child cannot handle wealth, should that parent give the child that wealth anyway? 

Do you remember Publishers Clearing House and their large awards, some of which could be taken as "lifetime" installments? Some of those who took the "lifetime" award instead of a lump sum are not faring very well with their unearned wealth once PCH has gone bankrupt.

Check it out:

 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Notatbm said:

I didn’t say anyone HAD to tell their parents , I said the leaders would do that. 

there are like ten people in my ward who I have never known and never lived around my family who know one of my family members. 
 

I could resign and once one of these people found out, my whole family would know in less than a week without me telling one of em. 
 

Then the crap show starts for a year or two.  Not worth it. 

So, you're afraid of them going against church policy about information privacy and sharing that you resigned your membership? I get it. 

Anyway, you might as well stay on the rolls, since they seem to be leaving you alone. Which is what you want, I gather. 

I'm not encouraging you to resign your membership in any case.

During the 9 years I served as a ward clerk, there was aware this one sister who resigned her membership. She was married to a member, and they had been inactive for many years. She was off the rolls, but her husband kept his membership, and for some reason after she was out, he started attending church again. Now, she had originally been a convert from the Catholic church, and the reason for her resignation was that her parents had been devout Catholics, and she desired to return to the Catholic church in honor of her parents (apparently they had been terribly disappointed at her becoming a "Mormon" back in the day -- but they had both passed by this point).

Problem was, after she went back she didn't find the spirituality that she was hoping for, that she thought she had remembered. Several months after her resignation she came to see our bishop, possibly at the recommendation of her husband, and she started the process of rejoining the Church. After a year she was back, and then a year after that they went to the temple and were sealed as husband and wife (something that they had not done earlier). They went on with their lives, which since they were in the 70s, weren't all that much longer. But they testified to their dying days of their re-awakening in the Gospel. 

So, you never know. Stay in, and who knows what might happen?  

Have you heard the story of Dusty Smith, who from time to time has been a member of this august board? You're new, so you probably haven't. Here's his story:

 

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by Stargazer

[Notatbm]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

And of course you've hung your hat on the Dad saying he would withhold an inheritance from a child because the child had rejected the teachings of the church and was no longer living according to its moral principles. How horrible! How dare the Dad say this!

I don’t care what dad said; the fact the church is using his situation as a means of gathering more assets is what the problem is. Last thing parents should be doing is bribing their kids to “stay” in the church. For most people this wouldn’t be a problem as family doesn’t have enough money to make it worth the hassle if you don’t want to be “all-in” so they can have a payday down the road. All this is is a sales pitch to rich Mormons some of which have inactive kids. The church wants their money and found another way to incentivize people to give their assets to the church instead of their one kid who is inactive but is an otherwise good person. 
 

when I decided against going on a mission I got bribed instantly with a new car after I got home and college 100% paid for….  After that then I could go into the military but not before.  I refused and true to their word I got nothing. 
 

funny thing is as big of a turd as they hoped I would turn out, I’m the only kid who has never asked for money. Everyone else has repeatedly over the years according to dear mother. Also as a means of adding insult to injury they paid for most if not all the missions of my nieces and nephews but I was stuck with the bilL for my own kids’ missions. Thats not a huge deal as I turned out more financially successful than the rest of them but I can’t ever be a good person.

So… bribery to stay in the church is a terrible thing to do and Jesus does not approve. I’m just glad I didn’t accept the deal as it would always be held over my head. 
 

if anything don’t tell ur kids the deal and just leave that detail in the will. They can show up to the trustee with their and their spouses recommend in hand. Without it no money. At least that way no one is staying in order to get a payout. 
 

the whole “sudden money” concept you bring up I agree to a point. Maturity has a lot to do with that, but being a righteous mormon doesn’t make anyone better at managing money than anyone else. There are plenty of good righteous Mormons out there who would squander it all … I know some as you probably do as well

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Note that the Church didn't say that was what members should do. It was what this one apparently quite rich person has decided to do. Of course you choose to interpret this as advice from the Church. Which might be why this video was withdrawn from the Philanthropies website, because people with hair-trigger anti-Mormon sentiments found the fault you have.

No doubt you've heard stories of people who win big in lotteries, and a few years later are worse off than they were before. Do you seriously think that a loving father should gift a large sum of money to one of his children, knowing that the child is likely going to turn that instant wealth into a black hole that will suck him in? Even gifting it in installments can cause irreparable damage. 

The problem is UNEARNED WEALTH. And if a parent does not believe that his or her child cannot handle wealth, should that parent give the child that wealth anyway? 

Do you remember Publishers Clearing House and their large awards, some of which could be taken as "lifetime" installments? Some of those who took the "lifetime" award instead of a lump sum are not faring very well with their unearned wealth once PCH has gone bankrupt.

Check it out:

 

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by Notatbm

[Notatbm]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand some of your complaints, I had similar experiences. But it's really up to the member to be proactive and find out why the visits are lame I guess, something I'd never do in a million years though. The ball is dropped a lot in this area, I was a gung-ho, RS visiting teacher back when it was called that. I loved my visits and the friendships I made. Then when getting different partners, so missed my former ones, they maybe gave me partners that hated doing VT'g because I had to nearly be a stalker to coordinate going. Plus, the ladies we'd visit weren't excited to have us come anyway. So that was when it all changed for me, sadly. 
 

I wouldn’t classify my statements about ministering as complaints. Was going back and forth about using ministers to share info on members. I just mentioned that the workforce is there to do it  but no one ministers really. Provided my own example. Again I don’t care if they visit or not. I’ll welcome them in but they need to reach out first and as of nearly a decade now… twice 

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm glad you have your friend circles. I've been wanting to go visit a meeting held every Sunday at my local Harmon's store upstairs that has nothing to do with the church or anti LDS. It's a discussion group where they talk about feelings, and what's happening in the world, and so many topics. I've yet to go, but want to. Now I forgot the name of the meetings' group. 

 

yep friends are good to have. We visit each other in the hospital, help move stuff, watch houses while on vacation, get coffee together, grill steaks and drink beers 🍺. All the stuff  good neighbor should do and you don’t have to be a Mormon to be a decent person. Some people think you do tho. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

It's interesting how a person's unique, individual family experience sets a precedent in their mind for how the whole Church functions.

Sociologically fascinating really.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

It's interesting how a person's unique, individual family experience sets a precedent in their mind for how the whole Church functions.

Sociologically fascinating really.

It certainly affects my own perception (in a positive way) and it is common in my experience to first hear of criticisms of the Church and then hear of how their own family is a prime example of such.  Most of the time when I have suggested their family experience may have primed them to see such behaviour in the greater Church, especially when assuming motivations are the same as what they believe motivates their family’s behaviour, such gets ignored or dismissed.  But it is pretty accepted in psychology, I believe, including the negative  bias (see Hostile Attribution Bias as Benign Attribution Bias doesn’t seem to interest researchers as much and it’s usually mentioned in connection with the hostile version, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_attribution_bias and for an example https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1359178918302210 ).  

Edited September 20, 2025 by Calm

[Stargazer]

21 hours ago, Notatbm said:

I don’t care what dad said; the fact the church is using his situation as a means of gathering more assets is what the problem is. Last thing parents should be doing is bribing their kids to “stay” in the church. For most people this wouldn’t be a problem as family doesn’t have enough money to make it worth the hassle if you don’t want to be “all-in” so they can have a payday down the road. All this is is a sales pitch to rich Mormons some of which have inactive kids. The church wants their money and found another way to incentivize people to give their assets to the church instead of their one kid who is inactive but is an otherwise good person. 

It probably doesn't matter too much to you that the video was produced by LDS Philanthropies, whose only mission is philanthropic work. And as you may or may not have noticed, all philanthropies ask for money to do their work. It's not like President Nelson gets a share of the pie if they raise more money.

Thing is, some people will find a problem in pretty much anything. 

21 hours ago, Notatbm said:

when I decided against going on a mission I got bribed instantly with a new car after I got home and college 100% paid for….  After that then I could go into the military but not before.  I refused and true to their word I got nothing. 

When I decided to go on a mission, my father attempted to bribe me not to go, by saying if I postponed my mission he would pay for both my mission and my college 100%, but if and only if I went to college first. Since I was pretty certain that if I went to college first I would never serve a mission (would probably find a wife during that time), I declined his offer, and true to his word, I got nothing. After my mission I tried university (BYU) but ran out of money and joined the Army for a nice 8 year hitch. I did eventually get a degree in computer programming, which became my post-military career. Long route to get to it.

Did your family give you a lot of grief for not serving a mission? If so, I sympathize. None of my children served missions, despite our encouragement. My wife and I kind of felt some degree of disappointment and failure in this. What did we do wrong? Apparently we were unable to inspire them to acquire strong testimonies of the gospel. We didn't hold it against them. I should modify that earlier statement, since one of my stepchildren served a mission, but since he was already in the field when I married his mother, I didn't have any involvement in inspiring him. One of his children served a mission in Brazil, but the rest didn't. 

21 hours ago, Notatbm said:

funny thing is as big of a turd as they hoped I would turn out, I’m the only kid who has never asked for money. Everyone else has repeatedly over the years according to dear mother. Also as a means of adding insult to injury they paid for most if not all the missions of my nieces and nephews but I was stuck with the bilL for my own kids’ missions. Thats not a huge deal as I turned out more financially successful than the rest of them but I can’t ever be a good person.

They hoped you would turn out to be a big turd? Odd thing to hope for.

Nice of you to pay for your own childrens' missions! How many did you have, and how many served? 

Are you being judged as a non-good person? Or is that your self-judgement?

21 hours ago, Notatbm said:

So… bribery to stay in the church is a terrible thing to do and Jesus does not approve. I’m just glad I didn’t accept the deal as it would always be held over my head. 

Every case is its own case. I'm not entirely sure that bribery to stay in the church is a terrible thing to do. And I have my doubts as to whether you are correct that Jesus does not approve. Can it not be the case that a bribed person eventually finds his or her own reason to stay in the church, regardless of the bribe? There are enough people out there who have been bribed to go to university, or bribed to do other good things, that I am unsure if that's a negative or not. I seem to recall that it has been said by certain parties that God is trying to bribe us to stay on His good side by keeping His commandments, hanging out that lovely reward of heaven if you do. Heck of a bribe!

21 hours ago, Notatbm said:

the whole “sudden money” concept you bring up I agree to a point. Maturity has a lot to do with that, but being a righteous mormon doesn’t make anyone better at managing money than anyone else. There are plenty of good righteous Mormons out there who would squander it all … I know some as you probably do as well

Actually, I don't think I know any righteous or unrighteous Mormons who have squandered it all. Probably because I have a smaller acquaintanceship circle than you. Might there be some who would squander it, if they got it? Yeah, probably. But of the very well off members of the church I have known, none of them inherited their wealth. 

[Notatbm]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

It probably doesn't matter too much to you that the video was produced by LDS Philanthropies, whose only mission is philanthropic work. And as you may or may not have noticed, all philanthropies ask for money to do their work. It's not like President Nelson gets a share of the pie if they raise more money.

I know what they do. The fact they essentially are trolling for parents who have wayward kids and are trying to present an alternative for the inheritance to go to the church as opposed to the kid. The premise being that you child who is no longer a believer or is just inactive or whatever, doesn’t deserve the inheritance, we do. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Thing is, some people will find a problem in pretty much anything. 

When I decided to go on a mission, my father attempted to bribe me not to go, by saying if I postponed my mission he would pay for both my mission and my college 100%, but if and only if I went to college first. Since I was pretty certain that if I went to college first I would never serve a mission (would probably find a wife during that time), I declined his offer, and true to his word, I got nothing. After my mission I tried university (BYU) but ran out of money and joined the Army for a nice 8 year hitch. I did eventually get a degree in computer programming, which became my post-military career. Long route to get to it.

Did your family give you a lot of grief for not serving a mission?

grief? Well after the yelling and screaming and mother locked herself in their room for a couple weeks crying about her family being destroyed.. it got better. The silent treatment. It then got better and I was only repeatedly lectured about how I am ruining everyone’s lives.  My father was the SP so that made it 100x worse. Whole stake knew the SPs son opted out. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

If so, I sympathize. None of my children served missions, despite our encouragement. My wife and I kind of felt some degree of disappointment and failure in this. What did we do wrong? Apparently we were unable to inspire them to acquire strong testimonies of the gospel. We didn't hold it against them. I should modify that earlier statement, since one of my stepchildren served a mission, but since he was already in the field when I married his mother, I didn't have any involvement in inspiring him. One of his children served a mission in Brazil, but the rest didn't. 
 

all my kids went and it wasn’t because I encouraged them. I made sure they all knew they definitely had a choice so if they went it was 110% their problem if they hate it. I also told them I’d support whatever choice they made unlike other people I know. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

They hoped you would turn out to be a big turd? Odd thing to hope for.

yep… everyone knows if you are not an Eagle Scout and an RM then you are worthless to the church and will never be as successful at anything as you would have been if you had taken the time to go on a mission. 

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Nice of you to pay for your own childrens' missions! How many did you have, and how many served? 

Are you being judged as a non-good person? Or is that your self-judgement?

I was taught growing up if you didn’t serve a mission you are disobeying the lord. So you know any church leader who would say a person who disobeys the lord is a good person? I don’t

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Every case is its own case. I'm not entirely sure that bribery to stay in the church is a terrible thing to do. And I have my doubts as to whether you are correct that Jesus does not approve. Can it not be the case that a bribed person eventually finds his or her own reason to stay in the church, regardless of the bribe? There are enough people out there who have been bribed to go to university, or bribed to do other good things, that I am unsure if that's a negative or not. I seem to recall that it has been said by certain parties that God is trying to bribe us to stay on His good side by keeping His commandments, hanging out that lovely reward of heaven if you do. Heck of a bribe!

Actually, I don't think I know any righteous or unrighteous Mormons who have squandered it all. Probably because I have a smaller acquaintanceship circle than you. Might there be some who would squander it, if they got it? Yeah, probably. But of the very well off members of the church I have known, none of them inherited their wealth. 

used to work in a financial planning firm (just a paperwork processor) and I saw hundreds of families. Many of them who had blown it all and are crying their eyes out about how are they gonna get it back so they can be comfortable. Several were lds. There was even a couple who had spent their entire retirements going on senior missions and now their kids had to support them for the rest of their lives. They were not even seventy years old. Dumbest couple I ever met… they did lots of missions though. 

Edited September 20, 2025 by Notatbm

[Stargazer]

11 minutes ago, Notatbm said:

I know what they do. The fact they essentially are trolling for parents who have wayward kids and are trying to present an alternative for the inheritance to go to the church as opposed to the kid. The premise being that you child who is no longer a believer or is just inactive or whatever, doesn’t deserve the inheritance, we do. 

grief? Well after the yelling and screaming and mother locked herself in their room for a couple weeks crying about her family being destroyed.. it got better. The silent treatment. It then got better and I was only repeatedly lectured about how I am ruining everyone’s lives.  My father was the SP so that made it 100x worse. Whole stake knew the SPs son opted out. 

all my kids went and it wasn’t because I encouraged them. I made sure they all knew they definitely had a choice so if they went it was 110% their problem if they hate it. I also told them I’d support whatever choice they made unlike other people I know. 

yep… everyone knows if you are not an Eagle Scout and an RM then you are worthless to the church and will never be as successful at anything as you would have been if you had taken the time to go on a mission. 

I was taught growing up if you didn’t serve a mission you are disobeying the lord. So you know any church leader who would say a person who disobeys the lord is a good person? I don’t

used to work in a financial planning firm (just a paperwork processor) and I saw hundreds of families. Many of them who had blown it all and are crying their eyes out about how are they gonna get it back so they can be comfortable. Several were lds. There was even a couple who had spent their entire retirements going on senior missions and now their kids had to support them for the rest of their lives. They were not even seventy years old. Dumbest couple I ever met… they did lots of missions though. 

Your story makes me sad. I feel for you, and I believe I understand you better. Thanks for sharing!

Goes to show that we have a long way to go as Latter-day Saints. 

I feel that if one has a testimony of the Gospel, and of the Church as Christ's Church, then it kind of is disobeying the Lord to not serve a mission. But if it's all shoulder-shrugging in regards to one's testimony, then perhaps that means a bit of introspection is in order. And perhaps it might be better to stay home. On the other hand, my current ministering companion found his testimony while on his mission. I don't know if he was pressured to serve, or not. He did say that he went voluntarily because he wanted a testimony, and had a number of experiences that made him quite sure about the Lord and the Church.

As a convert in my teen years, I sometimes feel at a disadvantage when it comes to interacting with life-long members. That was one of the reasons I initially felt I had no business serving a mission, since I had never attended Primary, only a sliver of Young Men, and had no family support. A new member going out into the world to try to teach something I barely knew myself? Shudder. Nobody told me I had to go, but after a number of spiritual experiences I changed my mind. I'd be a bad missionary, I felt, but at least I'd be doing what I knew was right. I still feel that there was a lot in my service that was lacking. But it did change me in many positive ways.