Our First Estate...

[ZealouslyStriving]

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

We know that the post-mortal "Spirit World" is here in Earth, is it possible that the pre-mortal "Spirit World" is also here on Earth, and we are just moving between three dimensions?

Thoughts? Have any of our deep thinkers opined on this?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

We know that the post-mortal "Spirit World" is here in Earth, is it possible that the pre-mortal "Spirit World" is also here on Earth, and we are just moving between three dimensions?

Thoughts? Have any of our deep thinkers opined on this?

Possible in my opinion. In relation to the first estate, (1) from where are they descending ("We ill go down.."); (2) where or what is the space to which they are they descending ("...for there is space there..."); and (3) are the materials in location/area/kingdom (1) or in an area adjacent to location/area/kingdom (2)?

Are several estates represented: The post-mortal Father and those pre-mortals selected to work with Him on this; "these" (all of the Father's spirit children: first estate); space; materials; earth; probation (second estate); the added-upon kingdom(s) (other estates).

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Possible in my opinion. In relation to the first estate, (1) from where are they descending ("We ill go down.."); (2) where or what is the space to which they are they descending ("...for there is space there..."); and (3) are the materials in location/area/kingdom (1) or in an area adjacent to location/area/kingdom (2)?

Are several estates represented: The post-mortal Father and those pre-mortals selected to work with Him on this; "these" (all of the Father's spirit children: first estate); space; materials; earth; probation (second estate); the added-upon kingdom(s) (other estates).

Could descend be less physical locality than from a higher plane of glory to a lesser?

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

We know that the post-mortal "Spirit World" is here in Earth, is it possible that the pre-mortal "Spirit World" is also here on Earth, and we are just moving between three dimensions?

Thoughts? Have any of our deep thinkers opined on this?

Perhaps… Moses 3 makes it clear that the creation of this earth and all its life forms, as presented in Genesis 1 and 2 and Moses 2 and 3, was a purely spiritual creation, not a temporal creation. Moses chapter 3 plainly states that It wasn’t until after God rested from his creative labors on the 7th day that he again resumed his creative efforts by creating physically embodied man. When viewed as continuous and cohesive narratives, Genesis 1 and 2 and Moses 2 and 3 appear to suggest that our spiritual first estate may have been experienced in a spiritual realm that existed somewhere on planet earth, just as the post-mortal spirit world exists now somewhere within the boundaries of this earth. In this particular regard, Abraham 3 appears to be is in doctrinal harmony with Genesis 1 and 2, as well as with Moses 2 and 3. But there’s definitely some ambiguity in the accounts that make it difficult to come to a conclusion.

4 And now, behold, I say unto you, that these are the generations of the heaven and of the earth, when they were created, in the day that I, the Lord God, made the heaven and the earth,

5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heavencreated I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.

8 And I, the Lord God, planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there I put the man whom I had formed. (Moses 3)

Edited August 16, 2025 by teddyaware

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Could descend be less physical locality than from a higher plane of glory to a lesser?

Yes, I think there are many ways to look at it. I find descriptions of either very interesting. The same 3 questions would apply to glory as to location.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

We know that the post-mortal "Spirit World" is here in Earth, is it possible that the pre-mortal "Spirit World" is also here on Earth, and we are just moving between three dimensions?

Thoughts? Have any of our deep thinkers opined on this?

I think I've always understood that last bolded line to mean that those people who kept their first estate in the spirit world will be the ones going to the earth that was created, and there they would gain a physical body, which body will be an addition to (or added upon) everything they brought with them from the first estate.  They also keep their second estate, they receive further additions.

Since the general timeline is that the spirit world existed before the earth was created, it's existence could not have started on the earth.  Could it have been moved to the earth after it was created and after the Fall?  Could be.

 

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

We know that the post-mortal "Spirit World" is here in Earth, is it possible that the pre-mortal "Spirit World" is also here on Earth, and we are just moving between three dimensions?

Thoughts? Have any of our deep thinkers opined on this?

I just reread the above verses and now realize there’s a definite indication that the first estate testing of spirits would indeed take place on the earth, not in heaven (at least not in heaven as it’s normally defined). This is most fascinating because it’s generally a accepted doctrine by the church that the first estate testing of our spirits took place in heaven, which testing culminated with the war in heaven, and that our second estate testing  phase would take place in mortality on earth. But the above verses appear to indicate that although we did indeed exist as spirits at the time the words quoted were spoken, we had not yet experienced being tested to see if we would keep our first estate. Consider…

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; (at this point it’s clear that our spirits already exist).

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; (At this point it’s clear that although we existed as spirits the testing to determine if we we will do all things whatsoever God commands us hadn’t yet taken place, and that the place where that testing would take place would be on the newly created earth).

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.  (At this point it appears the testing to determine who would keep their first estate hadn’t yet occurred because it doesn’t say, “those who have kept their first estate.”

Perhaps the way to reconcile the implications of these verses with long standing Latter-Day Saint doctrine is to think of the spiritual earth as a kind of spiritual outpost of heaven?

 

 

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

25 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I just reread the above verses and now realize there’s a definite indication that the first estate testing of spirits would indeed take place on the earth, not in heaven (at least not in heaven as it’s normally defined). This is most fascinating because it’s generally a accepted doctrine by the church that the first estate testing of our spirits took place in heaven, which testing culminated with the war in heaven, and that our second estate testing  phase would take place in mortality on earth. But the above verses appear to indicate that although we did indeed exist as spirits at the time the words quoted were spoken, we had not yet experienced being tested to see if we would keep our first estate. Consider…

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; (at this point it’s clear that our spirits already exist).

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; (At this point it’s clear that although we existed as spirits the testing to determine if we we will do all things whatsoever God commands us hadn’t yet taken place, and that the place where that testing would take place would be on the newly created earth).

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.  (At this point it appears the testing to determine who would keep their first estate hadn’t yet occurred because it doesn’t say, “those who have kept their first estate.”

Perhaps the way to reconcile the implications of these verses with long standing Latter-Day Saint doctrine is to think of the spiritual earth as a kind of spiritual outpost of heaven?

 

 

 

I'm tending to believe that we were organized as spirits here on Earth, but existed prior as intelligences. This makes sense to me as we hadn't yet proven ourselves, as either spirits or mortals, to live in Celestial Glory- so we had to have dwelt in the general presence of God but not in the fullness of His glory.

(Just spitballin' here- I'm sure people will find flaws.)

[teddyaware]

53 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'm tending to believe that we were organized as spirits here on Earth, but existed prior as intelligences. This makes sense to me as we hadn't yet proven ourselves, as either spirits or mortals, to live in Celestial Glory- so we had to have dwelt in the general presence of God but not in the fullness of His glory.

(Just spitballin' here- I'm sure people will find flaws.)

As Doctrine and Covenants 93 testifies, we did indeed exist as uncreated, self-existent intelligences prior to our intelligences being clothed upon with organized spirit bodies, in the likeness of the way our organized spirit bodies are now clothed upon with organized earthly bodies. In the end it’s all material, and it could be that with greater material mass comes a greater potential for power, glory and joy, hence the progression from intelligences to spirit bodies composed of very fine matter, and then from spirit bodies composed of very fine matter to bodies of flesh and bone composed of far greater material mass. 

Edited August 16, 2025 by teddyaware

[CV75]

5 hours ago, teddyaware said:

As Doctrine and Covenants 93 testifies, we did indeed exist as uncreated, self-existent intelligences prior to our intelligences being clothed upon with organized spirit bodies, in the likeness of the way our organized spirit bodies are now clothed upon with organized earthly bodies. In the end it’s all material, and it could be that with greater material mass comes a greater potential for power, glory and joy, hence the progression from intelligences to spirit bodies composed of very fine matter, and then from spirit bodies composed of very fine matter to bodies of flesh and bone composed of far greater material mass. 

This is a fine working model to draw from the testimony of D&C 93. While truth (knowledge of things of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come) and the light of truth (intelligence, or the light of knowledge of things as they are, were, and are to come) were not created or made, God places, or organizes, them (creates them in that sense) in the sphere in which they can act (exercise agency) which in turn defines their existence (past, present and to come). They act upon the light which is plainly manifest, the light which is in and through all things (D&C 88). The elements are eternal also; there is a difference between intelligence which acts and things which are acted upon but the light of Christ is in them all. The light of Christ comes by His fulness of truth and the light of truth as He exercised His agency to define His existence within the sphere God placed Him, an existence consisting of His infinite atonement from before the foundation of the world (the first 14 verses of Section 93). The rest as we learn it in this estate is the doctrine of Christ. Thus, I believe the veil between the first and second estates are a function of our intelligence, Christ’s intelligence being the greatest of all our Heavenly Father’s children. It seems that beginning very early in His mortal life He consistently pierced the Veil with increasing depth grace for grace in step with His physical ability to articulate it (and at the same time judiciously – perfectly -- withhold and share), its ultimate dissolution symbolized in the renting of the temple veil upon His death upon the cross.

[JAHS]

13 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

We know that the post-mortal "Spirit World" is here in Earth, is it possible that the pre-mortal "Spirit World" is also here on Earth, and we are just moving between three dimensions?

Thoughts? Have any of our deep thinkers opined on this?

This is not much deep thinking but I always assumed the pre-mortal world might be considered the Celestial kingdom for our heavenly parents where we were created as spirit beings somewhere near a star called Kolob (Abraham 3:1-4).

[longview]

10 hours ago, JAHS said:

This is not much deep thinking but I always assumed the pre-mortal world might be considered the Celestial kingdom for our heavenly parents where we were created as spirit beings somewhere near a star called Kolob (Abraham 3:1-4).

I would agree. This was where the First Estate started. The spiritual earth (the sentient consciousness of Gaia or whatever it might be called) was also organized in the same location. Along with uncountable spiritual earths. With all the spirit children residing thereon and rejoicing in the Presence of Heavenly Parents.

When the Great Plan of Happiness was presented then approved by the vote of the majority of spirit children, all these earths were transported to the Terrestrial Realm where they were cladded with physical planets in preparation for the implementation of the Second Estate. It was in the state of paradise with NO deaths among all the physical creatures.

After the respective Adams/Eves made the correct choice for partaking of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, the Fall occurred and all the earths were again transported. This time to the Telestial Realm. The race of mortal humans sprung forth being subjected to travails and challenges of a fallen world and also becoming subject to physical death along with spiritual death.

At the Second Coming of our Lord, the earth will be burned and transformed BACK to the Terrestrial State where there will again be NO deaths among the inhabitants. This is the paradise of the Millennium located in the Terrestrial Realm.

At the end of the Millennium (after the battle of Gog and Magog), the earth will be burned again (with even more fervent heat) and be transported BACK to the Celestial Realm.

21 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'm tending to believe that we were organized as spirits here on Earth, but existed prior as intelligences. This makes sense to me as we hadn't yet proven ourselves, as either spirits or mortals, to live in Celestial Glory- so we had to have dwelt in the general presence of God but not in the fullness of His glory.

(Just spitballin' here- I'm sure people will find flaws.)

I believe we ALL had to prove ourselves numerous times in many stages in many locations. We had to make choices as intelligences before the First Estate to agree to become spirit children of Heavenly Parents. We acquired new knowledge and new experiences as we grew and progressed as we were being taught by Heavenly Parents. Remember how Lucifer was among the exalted ones, rubbing shoulders with Jehovah, Michael, Gabriel, etc. But he became prideful and sought to take the place of God, demanding he be given greater glory over the Father. But our progress plateaued and we still needed further progress to become like our Heavenly Parents.

So God presented the Plan of Happiness. The third part of the host aligned with Lucifer because they believed his argument that it is only fair for EVERYBODY to have "cookie-cutter" equality of outcomes (communist doctrine). Whereas the Father and the Son provided freedom of choice (agency) thru equality of opportunities. Lucifer and his host were then condemned to remain spirit beings without gaining physical bodies and cast out of Heaven (the Presence of God).

It is interesting how Cain was able to talk with God but he became familiar with Satan and grew to love Satan MORE than God. Cain failed this test miserably. He regretted the consequences but apparently remained unrepentant.

Even in the Millennium, children will NOT always be loyal. Some will eventually join with Satan in the battle of Gog and Magog.

[telnetd]

On 8/16/2025 at 10:13 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

Based on the wording of the bolded part, the first estate is mortality.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Based on the wording of the bolded part, the first estate is mortality.

 

No.

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

No.

The interesting thing here is that telnetd’s opinion makes perfectly good sense in light of the fact that the quoted verses assert that the first estate testing is going to take place on the earth. In this regard, it’s highly likely that as many as 99.999% of the members of the church believe that our first estate testing took place on a far away distant heaven, not on the earth. After all, it’s absolutely counterintuitive for the average believing Latter-Day Saint to imagine that somehow both the first estate and second estate testing would take place on the earth!

But this strange ‘game changer’ doctrine becomes a bit easier to swallow when it’s understood that the creation of the earth occurred in two phases — the first being a finer matter spiritual phase, and second being a grosser matter ‘material’ phase. The final hurdle to leap over on the way to the acceptance of this “strange idea” is coming to the realization that prior to the fall the first estate spiritual creation of the earth was likely a heavenly realm upon which God could make an abode, in much the same way our earthly temples are Houses of the Lord.

Edited August 18, 2025 by teddyaware

[CV75]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

Based on the wording of the bolded part, the first estate is mortality.

 

That is why we need to look at the whole saying, not just the bolded part: "And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." It means that they who honor God's will in their first estate as spirits shall be added upon with a second probationary estate as mortal souls (the spirit and body together); and they who honor not God in their first estate shall not have glory in the second estate as do those who keep their first estate, but shall be cast down as spirits, not souls; and they who honor God's will in their second probationary estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever, that is, in the resurrection as redeemed, immortal souls.

[CV75]

On 8/16/2025 at 2:12 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'm tending to believe that we were organized as spirits here on Earth, but existed prior as intelligences. This makes sense to me as we hadn't yet proven ourselves, as either spirits or mortals, to live in Celestial Glory- so we had to have dwelt in the general presence of God but not in the fullness of His glory.

(Just spitballin' here- I'm sure people will find flaws.)

Because the spiritual creation of the earth followed the war in heaven, we lived as spirits in another place, in Heavenly Father's presence. As His children, we were organized into a higher order than that which we held previously (See D&C 93: 29 - 31; Abraham 3:21 - 24). Note that unless otherwise specified, intelligences, spirits, man and souls are used interchangeably. And "intelligence" [a divine property of spirits] is not, and is different than, "intelligences" [spirits with intelligence].

D&C

29 Man ["For man is spirit -- verse 33] was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man...

Abraham

21 I dwell in the midst of them all [intelligent spirits, verses 18, 19]; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God...

Edited August 18, 2025 by CV75

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Because the spiritual creation of the earth followed the war in heaven, we lived as spirits in another place, in Heavenly Father's presence.

Is this as well as other comments not assuming a linear timeline as in one thing happening at a time when we cannot be certain time is linear in Heaven not that more than one thing could be happening at a time (maybe the council in Heaven is still ongoing for new spirits or something else)?

If existence is one eternal round, the need for things to happen in a certain order is removed, imo.

Edited August 18, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is this as well as other comments not assuming a linear timeline as in one thing happening at a time when we cannot be certain time is linear in Heaven not that more than one thing could be happening at a time (maybe the council in Heaven is still ongoing for new spirits or something else)?

If existence is one eternal round, the need for things to happen in a certain order is removed, imo.

I think the idea of progress requires things to happen in a certain order within the eternal round. There is no reference describing existence as one eternal round, only that the Lord's course, which I take to mean His eternal plan of happiness (and its execution), is one eternal round. This is the phrase used in the Book of Mormon and D&C. That the Lord speaks about this in Abraham 3 in the future tense shows the role of and need for linear action and activity:

24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them...

The Creation took place before the Fall, the Fall before the Lord's advent in the flesh; His advent before His victory and second coming, etc. Probation before Judgement.

[Calm]

Quote

think the idea of progress requires things to happen in a certain order within the eternal round.

But a person could be moving forward through ‘positions’ without the positions ever changing.

Edited August 18, 2025 by Calm

[the narrator]

On 8/16/2025 at 8:13 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

"24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." (Abraham 3)

**The bolded part intrigues me as it seems to suggest that this Earth is the location of not just this mortal, second estate- but also where our first estate took place.

We know that the post-mortal "Spirit World" is here in Earth, is it possible that the pre-mortal "Spirit World" is also here on Earth, and we are just moving between three dimensions?

Thoughts? Have any of our deep thinkers opined on this?

A quick Google Books in early 19th century literature search shows very clearly that "first estate" was a common reference to the state that Adam and Eve were in the Garden (as well as for angels in heaven). Read it in that context, and it seems to be very much discussing Adam and Eve.

[Benjamin McGuire]

I am surprised that this discussion hasn't included Abraham 3:28 -

Quote

And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

I have three points worth mentioning.

First, the Book of Abraham material - even coming from the later batch of material that is produced - is still really early in the development of LDS theology and cosmology. There are big gaps between that theology and our modern Mormon beliefs. We need to be cautious about reading our theology back into these early sources. The one section here in Abraham 3:26 that really illustrates this is this statement: "and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate." There is an implication here that those who don't keep their first estate receive a kingdom of glory - and yet we know that those who receive perdition don't receive a kingdom of glory from the earlier D&C 88 - verse 24 states: "he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."

Second, in response to @the narrator, who noted that the first estate is closely connected to the Garden of Eden, Mormonism's pre-existence/war in heaven becomes a replacement for the Garden of Eden narrative. What I mean by that is the LDS theology places the fall of man (or at least the desire and intention for the fall) into the pre-existence. There creates a more differentiated back drop for the context of Abraham 3:28 - and by extension, the verse that this is connected to in Jude 1:6 - "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Where Mormonism ends up is with Lucifer's fall in the pre-existence, the subsequent war in heaven, and then the creation of man on earth. The challenge with @the narrator's comment is that Mormonism conflates Adam and Eve with all of humanity. And so at least from a current theological perspective, this is discussing every spirit child of God - which includes all of humanity and not just Adam and Eve. Whether or not the events of the Garden should be understood literally or figuratively, Mormonism pushes the decision to fall back into a pre-existence that could occur in the eternity which precedes the mortal creation of the bodies of Adam and Eve.

Finally, Mormonism goes much further (even if there isn't a sort of unified explanation or chronology of events). Mormonism extends creation back into the distant past. William Phelps, for example, calculated the beginning of the creation of the earth as having occurred a bit over 2.5 billion years in the past (he publishes this in 1844). He takes this figure from the Book of Abraham, taking the seven days of creation, multiplying them by a thousand years (7,000 years), and then subsequently taking those 7,000 years and multiplying them by 365 X 1,000 years to provide a reference for God's time as used in the Book of Abraham: = 2,555,000,000. For Phelps, the 7,000 years of creation is understood as God's time. While I wouldn't adopt this view myself, it points to a perspective of a very long creative period - during which there is plenty of time for a war in heaven to occur. However, even though we have the fall of Satan as part of this, Satan remains free until the millennial period in LDS thought. And even in traditional Christian thought, there is a challenge in all of this in trying to find some uniformity in chronology or theology. Revelations 20 is a fascinating example of this - because here we have the binding of Satan (verse 2) for a thousand years, and his subsequent release (verses 3,7), and then a second war (Armageddon). LDS theology tends to make this idea of the first estate a discrete slice of time - that is, it happened, it was done, the outcome hasn't been fully executed. We could even argue that while certain aspects of creation ended with the creation of Adam and Eve, that creation continues - with humanity functioning as co-creators in a mortal context.

For me, Abraham 3 seems to be a bit of a mash-up of ideas. If it wasn't for verse 28 of Abraham 3, it would be really easy to argue that both the first and second estates refer to mortality, and that these two estates delineate the three degrees of glory - the Telestial for those who fail to keep the first estate, the Terrestial for those who keep the first but not the second estates, and the Celestial, for those who keep both. I think that trying to make a developing theology of pre-existence conform to these potential references in the New Testament creates some of this confusion. Mormonism is trying to recontextualize both the events of the Garden, the fall of man, and the fall of Satan. And in the Book of Abraham, there is more than enough interpretive space for lots of different opinions. Does the war in heaven in the pre-existence fully precede the beginning of creation? I think that this is not a question with an authoritative answer, so different views may be collectively both right and wrong.

Anyway, I don't have the time right now to thoroughly edit this - I probably have some mistakes in there.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

I am surprised that this discussion hasn't included Abraham 3:28 -

I have three points worth mentioning.

First, the Book of Abraham material - even coming from the later batch of material that is produced - is still really early in the development of LDS theology and cosmology. There are big gaps between that theology and our modern Mormon beliefs. We need to be cautious about reading our theology back into these early sources. The one section here in Abraham 3:26 that really illustrates this is this statement: "and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate." There is an implication here that those who don't keep their first estate receive a kingdom of glory - and yet we know that those who receive perdition don't receive a kingdom of glory from the earlier D&C 88 - verse 24 states: "he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."

Second, in response to @the narrator, who noted that the first estate is closely connected to the Garden of Eden, Mormonism's pre-existence/war in heaven becomes a replacement for the Garden of Eden narrative. What I mean by that is the LDS theology places the fall of man (or at least the desire and intention for the fall) into the pre-existence. There creates a more differentiated back drop for the context of Abraham 3:28 - and by extension, the verse that this is connected to in Jude 1:6 - "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Where Mormonism ends up is with Lucifer's fall in the pre-existence, the subsequent war in heaven, and then the creation of man on earth. The challenge with @the narrator's comment is that Mormonism conflates Adam and Eve with all of humanity. And so at least from a current theological perspective, this is discussing every spirit child of God - which includes all of humanity and not just Adam and Eve. Whether or not the events of the Garden should be understood literally or figuratively, Mormonism pushes the decision to fall back into a pre-existence that could occur in the eternity which precedes the mortal creation of the bodies of Adam and Eve.

Finally, Mormonism goes much further (even if there isn't a sort of unified explanation or chronology of events). Mormonism extends creation back into the distant past. William Phelps, for example, calculated the beginning of the creation of the earth as having occurred a bit over 2.5 billion years in the past (he publishes this in 1844). He takes this figure from the Book of Abraham, taking the seven days of creation, multiplying them by a thousand years (7,000 years), and then subsequently taking those 7,000 years and multiplying them by 365 X 1,000 years to provide a reference for God's time as used in the Book of Abraham: = 2,555,000,000. For Phelps, the 7,000 years of creation is understood as God's time. While I wouldn't adopt this view myself, it points to a perspective of a very long creative period - during which there is plenty of time for a war in heaven to occur. However, even though we have the fall of Satan as part of this, Satan remains free until the millennial period in LDS thought. And even in traditional Christian thought, there is a challenge in all of this in trying to find some uniformity in chronology or theology. Revelations 20 is a fascinating example of this - because here we have the binding of Satan (verse 2) for a thousand years, and his subsequent release (verses 3,7), and then a second war (Armageddon). LDS theology tends to make this idea of the first estate a discrete slice of time - that is, it happened, it was done, the outcome hasn't been fully executed. We could even argue that while certain aspects of creation ended with the creation of Adam and Eve, that creation continues - with humanity functioning as co-creators in a mortal context.

For me, Abraham 3 seems to be a bit of a mash-up of ideas. If it wasn't for verse 28 of Abraham 3, it would be really easy to argue that both the first and second estates refer to mortality, and that these two estates delineate the three degrees of glory - the Telestial for those who fail to keep the first estate, the Terrestial for those who keep the first but not the second estates, and the Celestial, for those who keep both. I think that trying to make a developing theology of pre-existence conform to these potential references in the New Testament creates some of this confusion. Mormonism is trying to recontextualize both the events of the Garden, the fall of man, and the fall of Satan. And in the Book of Abraham, there is more than enough interpretive space for lots of different opinions. Does the war in heaven in the pre-existence fully precede the beginning of creation? I think that this is not a question with an authoritative answer, so different views may be collectively both right and wrong.

Anyway, I don't have the time right now to thoroughly edit this - I probably have some mistakes in there.

Thank you for this! The theological speculations that have been entertained on this thread (my own included) provide a perfect example of what can happen when isolated verses of scripture aren’t viewed and analyzed within their full context. By neglecting the imperative to obtain full scriptural context before venturing into attempts at analysis, sincere and well meaning individuals can easily be led down the primrose path that can lead to doctrinal errors that can significantly darken the way to clear and edifying understanding.

When verses 24, 25, and 26 of Abraham 3 are viewed within the full context of the entire chapter, it becomes abundantly clear that the expression “prove them herewith” isn’t referring to the idea that the spirit sons and daughters of Gods would receive their first estate testing on the earth. Rather, what “prove them herewith” is actually referring to is a process that Wii determine how the spirit sons and daughters of God are going to respond to God’s proposed new earth, and whether or not they will agree with and obey his divine decrees concerning how the new earth will be administered and governed for the eternal benefit of man..

Therefore the first estate proving ground was a war that took place in heaven, a spiritual conflict that God knew would soon commence. And while it’s true that at the time the words in the quoted verses were spoken the war in heaven hadn’t yet commenced, the fact is that soon thereafter it did, and as a consequence of his rebellion in the struggle Lucifer lost his first estate (heaven). Therefore the first estate testing took place in heaven, not on the earth, and that’s why after his defeat Lucifer was banished from the precincts of heaven, and it was only then that he was cast down to earth.

 

Edited August 18, 2025 by teddyaware

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

But a person could be moving forward through ‘positions’ without the positions ever changing.

Since the person is having the experience of progress or moving forward and not the positions (which are acted upon by their passing through), I think the idea of progress or a person moving forward requires their experiences to happen in a certain order within the positions or estates along the eternal round. Abraham 3 places a lot of emphasis on our reckoning in relation to various planets and stars (and their orders) which are set to "give light". I recognize that this is not a literal cosmology but a teaching mechanism about our progress.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

I am surprised that this discussion hasn't included Abraham 3:28 -

I have three points worth mentioning.

First, the Book of Abraham material - even coming from the later batch of material that is produced - is still really early in the development of LDS theology and cosmology. There are big gaps between that theology and our modern Mormon beliefs. We need to be cautious about reading our theology back into these early sources. The one section here in Abraham 3:26 that really illustrates this is this statement: "and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate." There is an implication here that those who don't keep their first estate receive a kingdom of glory - and yet we know that those who receive perdition don't receive a kingdom of glory from the earlier D&C 88 - verse 24 states: "he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."

Second, in response to @the narrator, who noted that the first estate is closely connected to the Garden of Eden, Mormonism's pre-existence/war in heaven becomes a replacement for the Garden of Eden narrative. What I mean by that is the LDS theology places the fall of man (or at least the desire and intention for the fall) into the pre-existence. There creates a more differentiated back drop for the context of Abraham 3:28 - and by extension, the verse that this is connected to in Jude 1:6 - "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Where Mormonism ends up is with Lucifer's fall in the pre-existence, the subsequent war in heaven, and then the creation of man on earth. The challenge with @the narrator's comment is that Mormonism conflates Adam and Eve with all of humanity. And so at least from a current theological perspective, this is discussing every spirit child of God - which includes all of humanity and not just Adam and Eve. Whether or not the events of the Garden should be understood literally or figuratively, Mormonism pushes the decision to fall back into a pre-existence that could occur in the eternity which precedes the mortal creation of the bodies of Adam and Eve.

Finally, Mormonism goes much further (even if there isn't a sort of unified explanation or chronology of events). Mormonism extends creation back into the distant past. William Phelps, for example, calculated the beginning of the creation of the earth as having occurred a bit over 2.5 billion years in the past (he publishes this in 1844). He takes this figure from the Book of Abraham, taking the seven days of creation, multiplying them by a thousand years (7,000 years), and then subsequently taking those 7,000 years and multiplying them by 365 X 1,000 years to provide a reference for God's time as used in the Book of Abraham: = 2,555,000,000. For Phelps, the 7,000 years of creation is understood as God's time. While I wouldn't adopt this view myself, it points to a perspective of a very long creative period - during which there is plenty of time for a war in heaven to occur. However, even though we have the fall of Satan as part of this, Satan remains free until the millennial period in LDS thought. And even in traditional Christian thought, there is a challenge in all of this in trying to find some uniformity in chronology or theology. Revelations 20 is a fascinating example of this - because here we have the binding of Satan (verse 2) for a thousand years, and his subsequent release (verses 3,7), and then a second war (Armageddon). LDS theology tends to make this idea of the first estate a discrete slice of time - that is, it happened, it was done, the outcome hasn't been fully executed. We could even argue that while certain aspects of creation ended with the creation of Adam and Eve, that creation continues - with humanity functioning as co-creators in a mortal context.

For me, Abraham 3 seems to be a bit of a mash-up of ideas. If it wasn't for verse 28 of Abraham 3, it would be really easy to argue that both the first and second estates refer to mortality, and that these two estates delineate the three degrees of glory - the Telestial for those who fail to keep the first estate, the Terrestial for those who keep the first but not the second estates, and the Celestial, for those who keep both. I think that trying to make a developing theology of pre-existence conform to these potential references in the New Testament creates some of this confusion. Mormonism is trying to recontextualize both the events of the Garden, the fall of man, and the fall of Satan. And in the Book of Abraham, there is more than enough interpretive space for lots of different opinions. Does the war in heaven in the pre-existence fully precede the beginning of creation? I think that this is not a question with an authoritative answer, so different views may be collectively both right and wrong.

Anyway, I don't have the time right now to thoroughly edit this - I probably have some mistakes in there.

RE: this part of your post: The one section here in Abraham 3:26 that really illustrates this is this statement: "and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate." There is an implication here that those who don't keep their first estate receive a kingdom of glory - and yet we know that those who receive perdition don't receive a kingdom of glory from the earlier D&C 88 - verse 24 states: "he must abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory."

The implication I get is that "the same kingdom" is the mortal kingdom or estate, and the "glory" mortals find here is most fundamentally a physical body and the attendant quickening and enlightening light of Christ, which the devils shall not have. D&C 88 I think is in another context.

PS verse 28 informed my response here Posted 17 hours ago though I did not cite it specifically, and it is understood not everyone reads every post.

 

Edited August 18, 2025 by CV75