Our First Estate...

[telnetd]

On 8/17/2025 at 8:18 PM, CV75 said:

That is why we need to look at the whole saying, not just the bolded part: "And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever." It means that they who honor God's will in their first estate as spirits shall be added upon with a second probationary estate as mortal souls (the spirit and body together); and they who honor not God in their first estate shall not have glory in the second estate as do those who keep their first estate, but shall be cast down as spirits, not souls; and they who honor God's will in their second probationary estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever, that is, in the resurrection as redeemed, immortal souls.

What does keeping your second estate mean then?

[telnetd]

On 8/17/2025 at 4:38 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

No.

That's how I see it by the bold part.

24 We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and
we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith,
to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon

Verse 26 is based on verse 24 happening first (creation and them dwelling on the created
earth in mortality), with first 25 overlapping (a time of testing in mortality).

[CV75]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

What does keeping your second estate mean then?

At the very least, receiving a body and at the most, being perfected and sanctified by Christ's grace.

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

That's how I see it by the bold part.

24 We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and
we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith,
to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon

Verse 26 is based on verse 24 happening first (creation and them dwelling on the created
earth in mortality), with first 25 overlapping (a time of testing in mortality).

To me it is saying that the testing that will be happening after creation(s)/organizings will be in 2 phases.

First, the spiritual creation (organization), then the pre-mortal testing period ("war in heaven").  First Estate.

Next, the physical creation (organization), then the mortal testing period. Second Estate.

[InCognitus]

11 hours ago, telnetd said:

That's how I see it by the bold part.

24 We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and
we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith,
to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon

Verse 26 is based on verse 24 happening first (creation and them dwelling on the created
earth in mortality), with first 25 overlapping (a time of testing in mortality).

Scripture, especially ancient Hebrew prose narratives like the book of Abraham, often repeats important points for emphasis and as part of the literary structure of the text.  (There is a chiasmus in Abraham 3:22-23, for example). Consequently, you can't always assume that the text is intended to be chronological without looking at the complete context.  And you are taking verse 26 totally out of context.  You stopped mid-sentence in verse 26 without looking at everything that comes before it and after it.

Here is Abraham 3:22–28 showing the context that informs us of the meaning of the "first estate" and "second estate":

• 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
• 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.
• 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;
• 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;
• 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.
• 27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
• 28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

All of the bolded red text above refers to the "intelligences that were organized before the world was".  The bolded blue refers to the place that is being created where those who were with God 'before the world was" would be sent to "prove them" to "see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them".

Finally, in verse 28 we see one of those intelligences who was "before the world was" who "kept not his first estate", making it clear that the "first estate" refers to the realm before the earth was created, while the second estate refers to the life those same individuals live while on the earth that was created for them.

[telnetd]

On 8/20/2025 at 12:34 AM, InCognitus said:

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

How did the second not keep his first estate?

[telnetd]

On 8/19/2025 at 7:00 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

First, the spiritual creation (organization), then the pre-mortal testing period ("war in heaven").  First Estate.

So keeping your first estate is based on the choice of which side of the war you were on?

[telnetd]

On 8/19/2025 at 2:57 PM, CV75 said:

At the very least, receiving a body and at the most, being perfected and sanctified by Christ's grace.

Does the second estate extend to those who have died?

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 minutes ago, telnetd said:

So keeping your first estate is based on the choice of which side of the war you were on?

Yes.

[CV75]

35 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Does the second estate extend to those who have died?

That might be a matter of semantics, so in some ways yes. These people had a mortal existence, died, and haven't been resurrected yet. This stage, spirit paradise or spirit prison -- and some suggest it is the far end of mortality or the second estate -- allows continued spiritual progress, implying some aspect of probation since though proxy temple work those who died without all the covenants can make them by receiving the principles and ordinances of the Gospel. 

Edited August 22, 2025 by CV75

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

How did the second not keep his first estate?

To "keep" an estate refers to using our agency to follow God's plan to progress to become like he is.  In our "first estate" that plan included accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior.  But Satan rebelled against that plan and rejected it, so he "kept not his first estate".  (But I think you already know that).

[telnetd]

On 8/22/2025 at 7:13 PM, InCognitus said:

To "keep" an estate refers to using our agency to follow God's plan to progress to become like he is.  In our "first estate" that plan included accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior.  But Satan rebelled against that plan and rejected it, so he "kept not his first estate".  (But I think you already know that).

Is keeping the second estate exaltation, becoming like He is?

[InCognitus]

3 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Is keeping the second estate exaltation, becoming like He is?

As it says, "they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever".  It is fulfilling, through the grace of Christ, the next step to progress to become like God is.

[teddyaware]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

Is keeping the second estate exaltation, becoming like He is?

Doctrine and Covenants 76 makes it abundantly clear that all those who are saved in any of the three post-resurrection kingdoms of heavenly glory, whether it be the celestial kingdom, terrestrial kingdom or telestial kingdom of glory, will have kept their second estate and will have the glory of God, in varying degrees of measure, poured out upon their heads for ever and ever. The inheritors of the telestial kingdom will be ministered to by the Holy Spirit, by angels and by my ministrants from the terrestrial kingdom; the inheritors of the terrestrial kingdom will be ministered to personally by Jesus Christ; and the inheritors of the celestial kingdom with be personally ministered to by both God the Father and Jesus Christ.

Only those who inherit the highest of the three degrees of glory that exist within the celestial kingdom will be divinely empowered and enlightened with the fullness of God’s glory to become like God. Nevertheless, each saved individual in either the celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdoms will have kept their second estate by their willingness to bow the knee and accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. The sons of perdition are the only individuals who will not keep their second estate due to their obdurate refusal to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and their refusal to repent of their sins.

36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death (I.e. the loss of the second estate) shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And THIS IS THE GOSPEL, the glad tidings which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us— (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

and…

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion in the mansions of glory which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

Bottom line? Only the sons of perdition will receive the second death and lose their second estate.

 

Edited August 25, 2025 by teddyaware

[telnetd]

On 8/25/2025 at 10:34 AM, InCognitus said:

As it says, "they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever".  It is fulfilling, through the grace of Christ, the next step to progress to become like God is.

Is the second estate life in mortality as Guide to the Scriptures defines?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/second-estate?lang=eng

Edited August 27, 2025 by telnetd

[telnetd]

On 8/25/2025 at 11:25 AM, teddyaware said:

36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death (I.e. the loss of the second estate) shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

The Book of Mormon shows others for whom redemption will not be made. It includes many
more than the sons of perdition.

"And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality 
to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged 
according to our works ... And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a 
second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his 
sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as 
to things pertaining unto righteousness. Then is the time when their torments shall be 
as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then 
is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according 
to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will. 
Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for 
they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die, seeing there 
is no more corruption" (Alma 12:12, 16-18).

"Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, 
only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory 
state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it 
should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if 
so, God would cease to be God” (Alma 42:13).

 

On 8/25/2025 at 11:25 AM, teddyaware said:

Bottom line? Only the sons of perdition will receive the second death and lose their second estate.

The second death is for those who are not in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

The Plan of Salvation defines spiritual death as "Separation from God as a result of 
disobeying His commandments. We are saved from spiritual death through the Atonement 
of Jesus Christ as we repent and keep His commandments".

All those who don't return to live with God fall under that category of "spiritual death".

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

The Book of Mormon shows others for whom redemption will not be made. It includes many
more than the sons of perdition.

"And Amulek hath spoken plainly concerning death, and being raised from this mortality 
to a state of immortality, and being brought before the bar of God, to be judged 
according to our works ... And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a 
second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his 
sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as 
to things pertaining unto righteousness. Then is the time when their torments shall be 
as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then 
is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according 
to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will. 
Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for 
they cannot be redeemed according to God's justice; and they cannot die, seeing there 
is no more corruption" (Alma 12:12, 16-18).

"Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, 
only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory 
state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it 
should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if 
so, God would cease to be God” (Alma 42:13).

 

The second death is for those who are not in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6).

The Plan of Salvation defines spiritual death as "Separation from God as a result of 
disobeying His commandments. We are saved from spiritual death through the Atonement 
of Jesus Christ as we repent and keep His commandments".

All those who don't return to live with God fall under that category of "spiritual death".

It must be miserable living under the false impression that is God a heartless dictator who pushes people around and eternally damns them to an unimaginably cruel hell because nobody has the power the stop him.

Doctrine and Covenants 76 makes it abundantly clear that by the time of the final judgement the only individuals who will be in terrible unsaved state spoken of by the Prophet Alma in Alma 42 will be the sons of perdition, for they are the only individuals who will utterly refuse to repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—

35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triuph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the  worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us. (Doctrine and Covenants 76)

The scriptures couldn’t be more clear that the probationary state of the fall continues on in the spirit world after death. If not so, God would be no better than the world’s most notorious totalitarian tyrants. The Apostle Peter well understood this most glorious and  wonderful principal of salvation being extended to dead who died in there sins, with mercy even being extended to those multitudes who were destroyed in the great flood due to their rebellion.  

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1 Peter 4)

20 Which were sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3)

and…

5 Who (I.e. all of humanity) shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6 Forfor this cause (I.e. the inescapable fact the all mankind will be judged) was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4)

But if it makes you happy to think that the God of perfect love, knowledge, wisdom and mercy somehow created the most unjust and unmerciful horror show imaginable, because, in spite of the mountain of scriptural evidence that says otherwise, you want to continue to believe that the probationary state doesn’t continue after death that’s your prerogative.

Edited August 27, 2025 by teddyaware

[MustardSeed]

39 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

you want to continue to believe that the probationary state doesn’t continue after death that’s your prerogative.

Why do you incessantly insist on delivering your messages in such a condescending cruel way?

[telnetd]

On 8/27/2025 at 2:10 PM, teddyaware said:

 

But if it makes you happy to think that the God of perfect love, knowledge, wisdom and mercy somehow created the most unjust and unmerciful horror show imaginable, because, in spite of the mountain of scriptural evidence that says otherwise, you want to continue to believe that the probationary state doesn’t continue after death that’s your prerogative.

Alma doesn't teach the spirit world is a probationary period.

Who receives spiritual death?

Edited August 29, 2025 by telnetd

[InCognitus]

On 8/27/2025 at 10:44 AM, telnetd said:

Is the second estate life in mortality as Guide to the Scriptures defines?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/second-estate?lang=eng

Yes, but isn't that obvious from what I said previously?

[telnetd]

18 hours ago, InCognitus said:

Yes, but isn't that obvious from what I said previously?

Yes you did. I saw some other teachings which say it includes the time in the
post-mortal world, up to one's resurrection.

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, telnetd said:

Yes you did. I saw some other teachings which say it includes the time in the
post-mortal world, up to one's resurrection.

The second estate covers the time from mortal birth until the final judgement and resurrection.  Mortality is part of the second estate, but not all of it. 

The final judgement is based on how a person lived and responded to whatever truths had been made available to them while in their mortal life ("judged according to men in the flesh") combined with how they responded to further truths taught to them in the time between death and the final judgment and resurrection ("live according to God in the spirit" - 1 Peter 4:6). 

That's why it is urgent for those who have been taught the gospel in mortality to repent of their sins and prepare to meet God since they will be "judged according to men in the flesh", and those who have not heard the gospel in this life will be taught it in the time between death and the final judgement and resurrection, so that they may have a chance to "live according to God in the spirit".

On 8/29/2025 at 10:47 AM, telnetd said:

Alma doesn't teach the spirit world is a probationary period.

Actually he does.  

"And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead."  (Alma 12:24)

[teddyaware]

16 hours ago, InCognitus said:

The second estate covers the time from mortal birth until the final judgement and resurrection.  Mortality is part of the second estate, but not all of it. 

The final judgement is based on how a person lived and responded to whatever truths had been made available to them while in their mortal life ("judged according to men in the flesh") combined with how they responded to further truths taught to them in the time between death and the final judgment and resurrection ("live according to God in the spirit" - 1 Peter 4:6). 

That's why it is urgent for those who have been taught the gospel in mortality to repent of their sins and prepare to meet God since they will be "judged according to men in the flesh", and those who have not heard the gospel in this life will be taught it in the time between death and the final judgement and resurrection, so that they may have a chance to "live according to God in the spirit".

Actually he does.  

"And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead."  (Alma 12:24)

Any confusion on this point is Immediately dispelled when it’s understood that the expression “the day of this life,” as employed in the Book of Mormon, is referring to the fallen state, a condition that begins at birth, persists in the spirit world after death, and finally comes to an end at the time of the bodily resurrection into immortality. The Apostle Peter underscored this important doctrinal principal when he revealed that it’s God’s will that the gospel be preached to the spirits of the dead, to the end that said spirits will be judged by their response to the gospel message in the spirit world as if they heard it while still in the flesh.

It’s a real eye opener when one reads Doctrine and Covenants 138 and learns that even the righteous spirits in paradise consider their condition there to be a form of spiritual imprisonment from which they deeply yearn to be liberated. Why exactly do the righteous spirits in paradise consider themselves to be in confinement in a spiritual prison? The answer lies in the fact until they obtain freedom from the fallen state through the resurrection into immortality, even the spirits in paradise are still in a fallen, probationary state, a condition that continues until the prison doors are thrown open by means of the resurrection.

 

50 For the dead (the righteous in paradise) had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage.

51 These the Lord taught, and gave them power to come forth, after his resurrection from the dead, to enter into his Father’s kingdom, there to be crowned with immortality and eternal life, (Doctrine and Covenants 138)

 

 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2025 by teddyaware

[telnetd]

On 8/31/2025 at 4:14 PM, InCognitus said:

"And we see that death comes upon mankind, yea, the death which has been spoken of by Amulek, which is the temporal death; nevertheless there was a space granted unto man in which he might repent; therefore this life became a probationary state; a time to prepare to meet God; a time to prepare for that endless state which has been spoken of by us, which is after the resurrection of the dead."  (Alma 12:24)

"This life" is mortal life. The probationary state is also called the preparatory 
state in Alma 42:13.  

Alma 34:35 speaks of a final, endless state for those who had died in an unrepentant
state: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until 
death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal 
you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place 
in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the 
wicked.

Verse 32 again refers to it as "this life".

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the 
day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors".

Edited September 2, 2025 by telnetd

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

"This life" is mortal life. The probationary state is also called the preparatory 
state in Alma 42:13.  

Alma 34:35 speaks of a final, endless state for those who had died in an unrepentant
state: "For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until 
death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal 
you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place 
in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the 
wicked.

Verse 32 again refers to it as "this life".

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the 
day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors".

Did you even read my prior response?  I said (note the bolded part):

On 8/31/2025 at 2:14 PM, InCognitus said:

The final judgement is based on how a person lived and responded to whatever truths had been made available to them while in their mortal life ("judged according to men in the flesh") combined with how they responded to further truths taught to them in the time between death and the final judgment and resurrection ("live according to God in the spirit" - 1 Peter 4:6). 

That's why it is urgent for those who have been taught the gospel in mortality to repent of their sins and prepare to meet God since they will be "judged according to men in the flesh", and those who have not heard the gospel in this life will be taught it in the time between death and the final judgement and resurrection, so that they may have a chance to "live according to God in the spirit".

In Alma 34 it was Amulek speaking (not Alma) and he was teaching the Zoramites who had been given many truths of the gospel already, so it was urgent for them to prepare to meet God, since they will be judged according to what they've been given in this life.