Pres. Oaks: "...a Heavenly Mother or Mothers"

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Teancum said:

myogenetic

I think this may be a typo? 

[ZealouslyStriving]

58 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So you are happy you now have ammunition to promote the myogenetic patriarchy from 19th century Mormonism into the eternities as well? 

Yep. Absolutely. 😃👍🏻

[teddyaware]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Could we act for ourselves though before God placed us in “that sphere”, whatever that sphere*** may be for us?  
 

My guess of our first experience as actors would be as his spirit children.

***https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Sphere

 

Are you entertaining the idea that something can exist without it existing within a kingdom or sphere? How is possible for anything to exist without it being somewhere? And if it does exist somewhere, the verse I quote below testifies that that anywhere that’s somewhere is within kingdom or sphere of existence.

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. (Doctrine and Covenants)

[halconero]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

Are you entertaining the idea that something can exist without it existing within a kingdom or sphere? How is possible for anything to exist without it being somewhere? And if it does exist somewhere, the verse I quote below testifies that that anywhere that’s somewhere is within kingdom or sphere of existence.

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. (Doctrine and Covenants)

I won't speak for Calm, but a lot hinges on what the act of 'placing' means. Have you ever said or heard someone say something like, 'let's put everything (back) in its proper place'? Or the other week, I was teaching a class on linear algebra, in which I said, "when using dummy variables, we [re]place the 'x' with a 1 or a 0." In both cases, something (whether an object or concept) exists, but is not organized or placed into a sphere where it is able to 'act' according to its proper function.

The other possibility, which I'll mention here is that D&C 88 is explicitly talking about space-time, or a defined reality organized by God. See D&C 88:7–13 specifically:

Quote

7 Which truth shineth. This is the light of Christ. As also he is in the sun, and the light of the sun, and the power thereof by which it was made.

8 As also he is in the moon, and is the light of the moon, and the power thereof by which it was made;

9 As also the light of the stars, and the power thereof by which they were made;

10 And the earth also, and the power thereof, even the earth upon which you stand.

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

If this section indeed refers to the concept of reality, or spacetime, then it's simply saying that everything organized by God is within His kingdoms.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Are you entertaining the idea that something can exist without it existing within a kingdom or sphere? How is possible for anything to exist without it being somewhere? And if it does exist somewhere, the verse I quote below testifies that that anywhere that’s somewhere is within kingdom or sphere of existence.

37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. (Doctrine and Covenants)

No, I am pointing out that the scripture refers to God placing Truth in a sphere and compares Truth to “all intelligence”, which suggests he took all intelligence and placed those in a sphere as well.  “Sphere” need not refer to simply the universe or space given the alternative meaning of “sphere” that I quoted.  Iow, the scripture is possibly referring to intelligences existing within the same space, but unable to act in their original form and therefore God embodied them in spiritual forms, thereby creating a new sphere of activity for them.  “Sphere” here could either mean the spiritual bodies themselves or a new set of associated behaviours.

The political sphere does not exist in a different universe than the economic sphere, even if at times it feels like it does.

A more modern definition from Google than the 1828 Webster’s that makes it clearer how “sphere” might be used in this verse:

Quote

an area of activity, interest, or expertise; a section of society or an aspect of life distinguished and unified by a particular characteristic.

God placed us in/gave us access to a spiritual society/life by giving the intelligences spiritual bodies.

Edited July 25, 2025 by Calm

[halconero]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, I am pointing out that the scripture refers to God placing Truth in a sphere and compares Truth to “all intelligence”, which suggests he took all intelligence and placed those in a sphere as well.  “Sphere” need not refer to simply the universe or space given the alternative meaning of “sphere” that I quoted.  Iow, the scripture is possibly referring to intelligences existing within the same space, but unable to act in their original form and therefore God embodied them in spiritual forms, thereby creating a new sphere of activity for them.  “Sphere” here could either mean the spiritual bodies themselves or a new set of associated behaviours.

The political sphere does not exist in a different universe than the economic sphere, even if at times it feels like it does.

A more modern definition from Google than the 1828 Webster’s that makes it clearer how “sphere” might be used in this verse:

God placed us in/gave us access to a spiritual society/life by giving the intelligences spiritual bodies.

I more-or-less agree with the description outlined by Calm here. Intelligences are able to act for themselves, but act on what? Part of what defines an observer is the ability to 'condition' on our existence, that is, to experience something and update our beliefs, actions, or assumptions. The verse in D&C 93 outlines two things:

1. Truth and intelligence is able to act for itself.
2. God placed truth and intelligence within a sphere, in which sphere all truth or intelligence acts independently.

There are two possible reads of the resulting excerpt in verse 30:

1. It is the ability to act independently that defines existence.
2. It is the placing of an independent actor within a circuit of action, knowledge, or influence (i.e., an actor ability to condition upon other objects or experiences) that defines existence.

Put another way #2 suggests that existence goes beyond the reality of a concept or material, but is experience the Plan of Salvation through our placement within a sphere we can act on. This is what would define "observation" or "observing existence" in the technical sense.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, halconero said:

I more-or-less agree with the description outlined by Calm here. Intelligences are able to act for themselves, but act on what? Part of what defines an observer is the ability to 'condition' on our existence, that is, to experience something and update our beliefs, actions, or assumptions. The verse in D&C 93 outlines two things:

1. Truth and intelligence is able to act for itself.
2. God placed truth and intelligence within a sphere, in which sphere all truth or intelligence acts independently.

There are two possible reads of the resulting excerpt in verse 30:

1. It is the ability to act independently that defines existence.
2. It is the placing of an independent actor within a circuit of action, knowledge, or influence (i.e., an actor ability to condition upon other objects or experiences) that defines existence.

Put another way #2 suggests that existence goes beyond the reality of a concept or material, but is experience the Plan of Salvation through our placement within a sphere we can act on. This is what would define "observation" or "observing existence" in the technical sense.

Excellent summary

[rodheadlee]

On 7/16/2025 at 12:25 PM, Teancum said:

. So you think in the pre earth life there our spirits looked like we look in earth life?

Yes, of course. How would we recognize anyone?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes, of course. How would we recognize anyone?

We don’t actually recognize people from the preexistence much anyway.  There has to be something special then when it happens.  My guess is it’s a recognition of their spiritual nature/personality rather than some spirit material appearance.  Or rather than recognition, it’s a bond that existed between individuals in the previous existence that gets reactivated when the two get back together.

Edited July 25, 2025 by Calm

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I think this may be a typo? 

Yep

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Yep. Absolutely. 😃👍🏻

Ah well, To bad for you it is all a fantasy.  When I ponder the great length of time this planet has existed, and the clear evidence that life evolved over long periods of time, it seems great hubris to think that the species Homo Sapiens are the pinnacle of the evolutionary scale and that we resemble some god like being. The rate we are going humans will be long gone very soon on the evolutionary scale.  But who knows. I have read that Crows are extremely intelligent creatures and that they are using rocks and such as tools. They have great memories and recognize humans and hold grudges against a human that treats them poorly. They may be next up on the  most intelligent species on earth. Maybe some crow prophet in the future will say as crows are god once was, as god is crows can become.  😛

[ZealouslyStriving]

56 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ah well, To bad for you it is all a fantasy.  When I ponder the great length of time this planet has existed, and the clear evidence that life evolved over long periods of time, it seems great hubris to think that the species Homo Sapiens are the pinnacle of the evolutionary scale and that we resemble some god like being. The rate we are going humans will be long gone very soon on the evolutionary scale.  But who knows. I have read that Crows are extremely intelligent creatures and that they are using rocks and such as tools. They have great memories and recognize humans and hold grudges against a human that treats them poorly. They may be next up on the  most intelligent species on earth. Maybe some crow prophet in the future will say as crows are god once was, as god is crows can become.  😛

OK 🤷🏻‍♂️

(I do find crows fascinating. They can also solve puzzles. Have you seen the video of them snowboarding on a roof? Crows FTW!!!)

 

[halconero]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes, of course. How would we recognize anyone?

I'm somewhat skeptical of this claim for one specific reason: predestined relationships.

Even without a deep understanding of genetics, it's easy to see how children inherit the features of their parents. This is particularly true with my father and I, where it's often remarked that I look like a younger version of him. Likewise, my son has a good mix of features from both my wife and I (all the best parts of him come from her).

The idea of pre-mortal features being an exact or near-exact copy of our current mortal features suggests a similar relationship existed in the pre-mortal life or that our identities were fashioned in such a way as to mirror our mortal parents. I see limited support for the former notion, with plenty of support for the contrary position, and no support for the latter (I'm happy to be corrected).

As another counterpoint, consider physical features shaped by disability in this life. We may consider how chromosomal abnormalities affect facial features, height, weight, etc. Do we consider these features to be inherited from premortality? Are they features of a telestial world, where mortal bodies interact with shifting genetics that will be changed in the resurrection?

If our answer is the latter, it runs contrary to remarks given by General Authorities on the nature of disability. In fact, we have plenty of remarks from General Authorities, General Officers, and personal anecdotes that suggest the physical and mental character of certain persons with severed disabilities does not reflect their pre-mortal condition.

If, then, our bodies are subject to various genetic pressures of a telestial world, including genetic drift and environmental pressures, why not polygenic traits such as skin or eye colour? Why do other traits get a pass as not reflecting our premortal selves, while others do? If anything, Doctrine and Covenants suggest that are spirits, organized by God, combine with the elements (our mortal bodies) in such a way that may be distinct from the spirit or intelligence (if we're looking further back) that existed before. There may be familiarities, sure, but nothing that suggests an exact likeness.

[Pyreaux]

8 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Yes, of course. How would we recognize anyone?

That is a very Jewish idea. In Jewish tradition, spirits or souls can appear in recognizable human form, often resembling their earthly or pre-earthly identity. 

The Guph: The Storehouse of Souls

In Jewish thought, particularly in the Midrash and the Kabbalah, there exists the idea of a celestial realm called the  Guph - literally, "Body (of Beings)", also known as the Otzar Neshamot, the Treasury or "Storehouse of Souls". This is the spiritual repository where all human souls dwell before birth. Each soul exists with its own divine purpose, waiting for the right time to descend into a physical body and enter the world. The souls are born in a certain order, hence the Messiah cannot be born soon after the Fall but must wait souls are fated to be born before him have been exhausted. According to Midrash (Yevamot 62a) and later elaborated in the Zohar and Sefer HaBahir.

"The Son of David will not come until all the souls that are in the Guf have been exhausted."

This implies a premortal existence, a common idea in Jewish mysticism, where souls are not newly created at birth, but are eternal beings sent into bodies at their appointed time.

The Angel Israel: Jacob’s Premortal Identity

In some kabbalistic and aggadic traditions, the patriarch Jacob (Yaakov) is said to have had a premortal angelic identity: the Angel Israel. 

In the Zohar (I: 137a-b), the name "Israel" is linked to a higher spiritual essence that preexists Jacob’s earthly life. The transformation of Jacob into “Israel” after wrestling with the angel (Genesis 32) is not just a name change but a return or revelation of his true, higher identity—his angelic form. The angelic name "Israel" is associated with spiritual mastery and direct intimacy with God.

According to traditions summarized in The Tree of Souls, this angelic identity may predate Jacob’s earthly incarnation, and thus “Israel” is the name of his soul in the Guph, or his eternal self before he was born as Jacob. This explains why after wrestling the angel, he is told his name is Israel, as though reminding him of his true identity.

Jacob Recognizes Esau as an Angel

After this renaming In Genesis 33:10, when Jacob meets Esau after their long estrangement. Jacob says to Esau: “I have seen your face, as though I had seen the face of God [or an elohim/angel], and you were pleased with me.”

This verse has been interpreted mystically by various commentaries, in aggadic and kabbalistic readings, Jacob is recognizing something transcendent in Esau’s presence, even a glimpse of the celestial identity of Esau, who also would have existed in the Guph. Esau, despite his earthly choices, was also created with a divine soul from the same storehouse. Let’s explore how this appears in Jewish sources:

The Spirit of Samuel was Recognized

When King Saul has the Witch of Endor summon the dead prophet Samuel, he immediately recognizes the spirit:

“An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” (1 Samuel 28:14)
“Saul knew that it was Samuel…”

Saul recognizes Samuel by his appearance, Midrashic and Talmudic sources accept this encounter as literal (not symbolic) and take care to affirm that the dead can appear looking like their living selves. Souls retain clothing or appearance matching how they were buried or perceived in life (Sanhedrin 65b, Berakhot 18a). Berakhot 18b: "The dead are aware of what is said in their presence... they stand dressed in their shrouds and appear as in life."

5 hours ago, halconero said:

I'm somewhat skeptical of this claim for one specific reason: predestined relationships.

Even without a deep understanding of genetics, it's easy to see how children inherit the features of their parents. This is particularly true with my father and I, where it's often remarked that I look like a younger version of him. Likewise, my son has a good mix of features from both my wife and I (all the best parts of him come from her).

The idea of pre-mortal features being an exact or near-exact copy of our current mortal features suggests a similar relationship existed in the pre-mortal life or that our identities were fashioned in such a way as to mirror our mortal parents. I see limited support for the former notion, with plenty of support for the contrary position, and no support for the latter (I'm happy to be corrected).

As another counterpoint, consider physical features shaped by disability in this life. We may consider how chromosomal abnormalities affect facial features, height, weight, etc. Do we consider these features to be inherited from premortality? Are they features of a telestial world, where mortal bodies interact with shifting genetics that will be changed in the resurrection?

If our answer is the latter, it runs contrary to remarks given by General Authorities on the nature of disability. In fact, we have plenty of remarks from General Authorities, General Officers, and personal anecdotes that suggest the physical and mental character of certain persons with severed disabilities does not reflect their pre-mortal condition.

If, then, our bodies are subject to various genetic pressures of a telestial world, including genetic drift and environmental pressures, why not polygenic traits such as skin or eye colour? Why do other traits get a pass as not reflecting our premortal selves, while others do? If anything, Doctrine and Covenants suggest that are spirits, organized by God, combine with the elements (our mortal bodies) in such a way that may be distinct from the spirit or intelligence (if we're looking further back) that existed before. There may be familiarities, sure, but nothing that suggests an exact likeness.

Bashert - Your Fated Match

Predestined relationships, especially marriage that is divinely fated, is a deep and beautiful theme in Jewish thought, particularly in rabbinic literature. The idea that certain souls are destined to be together, that one is “fated to marry” another, is a firmly rooted concept in Judaism.

The Talmud and the Heavenly Announcement

The most famous statement on this subject comes from the Talmud, Sotah 2a: "Forty days before the formation of the embryo, a bat kol (heavenly voice) issues forth and proclaims: ‘The daughter of so-and-so is destined for so-and-so.’"

The relationships are not random but predestined from Heaven. A Jewish articulation of “soulmates.”The Kabbalistic Concept: “One Soul, Two Halves”

The Zohar and your Twin Hermaphrodite Soul

Kabbalah deepens this idea with the belief that a husband and wife are originally two halves of the same soul. At birth, the soul is split into male and female parts, which descend separately. Marriage reunites these halves into wholeness (shleimut). This idea of reuniting a split soul forms the foundation for the romanticized view of "bashert" - the one who was “meant to be.” (Zohar II: 93a)

Tobias was Fated to wed Sarah

Sarah, daughter of Raguel, has been married seven times, but each husband is killed by the demon Asmodeus before consummation. God sends the archangel Raphael to guides Tobias to Sarah, telling him in Tobit 6:17, “She was set apart for you before the world was made.” This is one of the clearest declarations of a predestined marriage in all Jewish scripture.

Be mindful, this is also from a time of providentially arranged marriages.

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

Ah well, To bad for you it is all a fantasy.  When I ponder the great length of time this planet has existed, and the clear evidence that life evolved over long periods of time, it seems great hubris to think that the species Homo Sapiens are the pinnacle of the evolutionary scale and that we resemble some god like being. The rate we are going humans will be long gone very soon on the evolutionary scale.  But who knows. I have read that Crows are extremely intelligent creatures and that they are using rocks and such as tools. They have great memories and recognize humans and hold grudges against a human that treats them poorly. They may be next up on the  most intelligent species on earth. Maybe some crow prophet in the future will say as crows are god once was, as god is crows can become.  😛

I have a friend who trained crows to bring him money in exchange for food.

[MustardSeed]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

We don’t actually recognize people from the preexistence much anyway.  There has to be something special then when it happens.  My guess is it’s a recognition of their spiritual nature/personality rather than some spirit material appearance.  Or rather than recognition, it’s a bond that existed between individuals in the previous existence that gets reactivated when the two get back together.

I read Rod’s comment to say ‘ how would we have otherwise differentiated between each other during the pre-mortal life?’

I would have assumed myself that mortal life came with a level of intelligence and awareness that we don’t have on earth. Of course I’m talking out of my butt and absolutely know nothing about anything.

[CV75]

21 hours ago, halconero said:

I more-or-less agree with the description outlined by Calm here. Intelligences are able to act for themselves, but act on what? Part of what defines an observer is the ability to 'condition' on our existence, that is, to experience something and update our beliefs, actions, or assumptions. The verse in D&C 93 outlines two things:

1. Truth and intelligence is able to act for itself.
2. God placed truth and intelligence within a sphere, in which sphere all truth or intelligence acts independently.

There are two possible reads of the resulting excerpt in verse 30:

1. It is the ability to act independently that defines existence.
2. It is the placing of an independent actor within a circuit of action, knowledge, or influence (i.e., an actor ability to condition upon other objects or experiences) that defines existence.

Put another way #2 suggests that existence goes beyond the reality of a concept or material, but is experience the Plan of Salvation through our placement within a sphere we can act on. This is what would define "observation" or "observing existence" in the technical sense.

A companion model might be that intelligences act on their perception / knowledge of other intelligences and matter, and by extension those intelligences and matter. They also act on their perception / faith that there are other intelligences and matter that share, interact with or act upon them from another sphere. God has reconciled both knowledge and faith into one perception (intelligence) and acts accordingly to place us where we can discover to do the same (truth).

Thus, the ability to act independently within a particular sphere organizes a subjective existence for oneself. A sphere with past, present and future reference points enables the ability to act independently on faith and knowledge perceptions (a fruit, and at the same time, a function, of subjective intelligence) to expand the sphere through partnership and cooperation, a fruit (and at the same time, a function) of objective truth. The reconciliation is the personification of truth, which God has done.

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, CV75 said:

God has reconciled both knowledge and faith into one perception (intelligence)

Are you using intelligence in two different ways here?  Intelligences being the entities that have always existed and in the above “intelligence” being a characteristic or type of perception?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Are you using intelligence in two different ways here?  Intelligences being the entities that have always existed and in the above “intelligence” being a characteristic or type of perception?

I don't mean to: when I say, "God has reconciled both knowledge and faith into one perception (intelligence...)," I mean that the entity or person we call "intelligence" is its perceptions. I mean to extend "I think therefore I am" into "I am what I think and I think what I am," I think this is reflected in the many estates, kingdoms of glory and forms of life -- each intelligence acting the sphere in which God had placed them and discovering truth along the way into expanding spheres. The second half of my statement, "...and [God] acts accordingly to place us where we can discover to do the same (truth)" means that when the person we call "intelligence" acts in a fully reconciled way, they personify truth. Our personification of truth (immortality and eternal life) is the object of our existence (the aim or end of the plan of salvation), the work and glory of God. Intelligence is the light of truth, and intelligence and truth, which at early stages of "spheredom" are separate (93:30), become one and the same (verse 36).

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Our personification of truth (immortality and eternal life) is the object of our existence

I disagree to this.  God has stated “Men are, so they might have joy”, so the object of our existence is to experience a fullness of joy, imo.  Personification of truth as you define it would be the means by which we achieve this, rather than the end itself.

Having experienced at times a lack of joy even while living a life aligned as much as possible with truth and goodness, I don’t see much value in Truth, order, or anything else if one lacks joy (which I define as enduring, deep happiness).  It makes perfect sense to me that God wants joy for his children.

Edited July 26, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I disagree to this.  God has stated “Men are, so they might have joy”, so the object of our existence is to experience a fullness of joy, imo.  Personification of truth as you define it would be the means by which we achieve this, rather than the end itself.

Having experienced at times a lack of joy even while living a life aligned as much as possible with truth and goodness, I don’t see much value in Truth, order, or anything else if one lacks joy (which I define as enduring, deep happiness).  It makes perfect sense to me that God wants joy for his children.

Where the Holy Messiah is full of grace and truth, and we are invited into the fulness of His stature (truth); joy is often used to describe that. D&C 93:33 - 34 speaks of joy in terms of that which inseparably connected spirit and element (an advanced intelligence) receive. Truth comes into play here in the idea that “Man is spirit” and “The glory of God is intelligence [His children, Himself – ideally as Christ envisions that union in John 17], or, in other words, light and truth.” Where divine joy is accompanied with divine disappointment (Moses 7), joy cannot be an end unto itself, so when God says that we are that we might have joy, He does not mean we will not have sorrow to go along with it from time to time, both here and in eternity, with moments of rest -- but that our overall communion with Christ and the Church of the Firstborn is where gods rejoice with those who rejoice and sorrow with those who sorrow. This is that peace which passeth all understanding, and is an experience beyond joy and sorrow, though God certainly wants us to have joy. I do not think He is ever without peace (the is no opposition to that in His world), though He empathizes with all who are, who are in lesser worlds.

Moses 6:52 – 61 bring these ideas together in a more detailed manner, connecting spirit (man) and Spirit (God), “that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come…” I am using Abraham 3 as the basis for spirits and intelligences being the same thing (people) in different estates or contexts.