Calm

I had a positive view of him as President of BYU, did not seem rigid or legalistic to me at the time (nor later, but then I tend to like his style of speaking more than folksy). I was wondering what the general view of him at BYU was, not sure how accurate AI can be with this (does it rely on the first sources it finds or seek more for a broader view?, after reading wiki, it seems heavily dependent on that), but it coincides with what I remember, though I don’t remember any rumors surrounding his release. The only issues I remember during Oaks’ tenure were honor code and the gay underground rumors and some controversies with Jim McMahon. And I don’t remember any of Oaks’ involvement (wiki says he was hands off with the honor code, left it to the dean of students which would explain the lack). There was quite a bit of discussion and controversy with the honor code while I was there, including one memorable scandal. Pants were allowed for women, but more dress denim only, no jeans (not till 1981, that was a joyous moment). A woman showed up at the Testing Center wearing nice denim pants and whoever was processing students (probably an older student I think) didn’t allow her to take the exam as it didn’t pass their personal standard. So she went to the restroom, removed her pants (had a coat that came down long enough) and went and took the test with nothing on her lower half (bare legs were not allowed with skirts if you worked for BYU iirc, had to be nylons or tights—it would be the only reason I would have had a pair, don’t think I have owned any since I left BYU—but I can’t recall if required for students in ‘78). The student wrote the Daily Universe about the craziness (guys were getting in wearing jeans). https://universe.byu.edu/2019/04/15/honor-code-changes-have-followed-controversies-1/#:~:text=One of its more notable,the no-pants episode followed. There were also some occasions where male students were policing female students, making comments and putting notes in coat pockets or backpacks. In these cases these women were not breaking the dress code, but were still seen as immodest and for some reason, the male students thought it was their duty to police women’s standards. No doubt there were men getting dinged by women for hair too long, etc, but I don’t remember them. I do remember hearing a lecture from another student in one of my psych classes on how it was the duty of men to ensure women’s purity with clothing standards, but he was not considered mainstream by other students. Most of the men I knew when it was discussed thought the self appointed modesty police were jerks. Because most students I knew saw Pres Oaks as a moderate at that time, I was rather surprised to find he became seen as conservative when an apostle. I started out in physics and then switched to engineering on the advice of my dad (should have talked to a career counselor as he was out of date), so I remember the affirmative action efforts Oaks was promoting for less discrimination against women. Didn’t like engineering and switched to psych after two years. Have to say it always feels a bit disconcerting to see Pres Oaks in the last 20 years or so, his appearance when he was at BYU seems to have been imprinted on my brain, lol. https://president.byu.edu/directory/dallin-h-oaks I was not surprised when he was called as an apostle. He carried himself with a natural sense of authority, imo. Probably his confidence. Mixed with a genuine sense of caring.

Do you believe this verse?

It is relatively easy to copy paste a transcript of a YouTube.

Transcripts of what he actually said are much easier to access. Asking someone to wade through a video, not even providing timestamps to the relevant part isn’t reasonable in this type of conversation. You are asking everyone else to invest 15 minutes, 30, an hour possibly when you won’t take the time, won’t invest the effort yourself. And they aren’t committed to proving the quote wrong where you supposedly are. Refusing to take the time…whether to criticize or defend with accurate, detailed info indicates someone doesn’t care that much to me, so why should I bother myself to engage the material?

Think of it as an opportunity to provide context, clarification, or positive quotes that counterbalance the problematic ones. It’s giving you a great excuse to show why you see him as a great man. Just complaining about the lack of context without providing it is likely to leave the impression context doesn’t actually help, so your only option is to be dismissive. Btw, Nehor, it would be more persuasive imo to provide links to transcripts where he said these things to show the greater context and that such were his actual positions.

Noticed this at the bottom: I am speculating the residents asked for a limit to be put on the donations when they could have just accepted it all. I find that admirable. I wonder if they have hefty student loans to pay off.

This is one that was in the article: https://www.gofundme.com/f/aayc3-support-for-the-phelps-family Can someone else go in and pull out the rest and post because I apparently got my free page limit with the Detroit News. Looks like changing tech is going to let me do some more: https://www.gofundme.com/f/john-bond Additional ones from hub below: https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-jeff-mareis-healing-journey-after-church-shooting https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-the-family-ofthelma-armstrong-victim-grand-blanc-mi https://www.gofundme.com/f/greg-mikats-family-victim-of-the-grand-blanc-church-attack Smart, go fund me did a “hub” for all verified fundraisers: https://www.gofundme.com/c/act/michigan-church-shooting-relief

I thought you meant Nazi style rhetoric, which is sometimes seen in white supremacist language. You meant labeling others as like Nazis. In this case he’s possibly referencing doctors who experimented on concentration camp prisoners, including children like Mengele did though he skipped town and eluded capture and lived a long, sounds like pretty comfortable life without having ever been brought to justice unfortunately. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S235245291520014X

Went looking for the links today for the LDS victims and took me a bit to find them (been waiting to donate until I talk with my husband about how much, but keep getting distracted when I do see him), so reposting them here for my ease and everyone else’s easy access. These were originally posted by bsjjki. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2025/09/30/family-friends-grand-blanc-church-attack-victims-launch-online-fundraisers/86436711007/# https://gofund.me/7ca4303d2 https://gofund.me/56d726f45 To be open, I am a bit surprised these aren’t equaling and surpassing the shooter’s family fundraiser. I am wondering if that is because the LDS victims are seen more as as one entity, so focus is getting split among several rather than one specific effort. It also may be because they aren’t raising the goal once it gets surpassed, so perhaps people assume the need isn’t as great. Please post other confirmed for real links to fundraisers for LDS victims (I can’t fathom why I have to remind people that there those who start fundraisers that look like they are for others, but they pocket the money themselves).

White males… Me too.

Huh?

No, he made it clear someone else saw Kirk as extremist. Is that not common knowledge? So you think Ben is lying about his explanation for posting as he did? One can recognize that others see Kirk as an extremist without seeing him as an extremist oneself. I have that situation in my home, my daughter sees him as pretty extreme…not sure how extreme because I am not feeling the need to get the nitty gritty details here. I do not see him as extreme. And btw, there are a lot of things I think my daughter gets right, so I ask her opinion and knowledge about them, but I also know she has biases that push her to see extremism when it’s not there in some cases. So just because Ben pointed out the ADL has had a decent reputation for identifying extremism, doesn’t mean he automatically agrees with them in every case. You are in a similar situation. You acknowledge (and even assume without evidence in some cases) that others see Kirk as extreme where you most definitely do not. Why not give Ben the same allowance?

You can say that again.

Seriously going there? Disagreement means death in your thought now…as in if you think someone is extreme, you think they deserve to be killed? And if it’s not what you think (which I am guessing it’s not), why are you assuming anyone else here believes that?

Thank you for not posting it.

This would be a very good idea.

Most likely because the kid has a chronic disorder that will require medical treatment the rest of his life most likely and that is costly. Getting enough so it can be put in a trust fund for him would be a great idea, imo. Donating to a child whose outlook is rocky is a common behaviour. I do agree the ones who were shot should be supported at least as equally much. They need support as well, even just the emotional recognition that they matter to others….maybe especially that recognition. People are probably thinking they are in a better financial situation to begin with and may have exaggerated ideas of what the Church helps out with or believes the Church should make exceptions in this case…which I would not feel bad about. I wonder if some LDS might think the Church will be sure to take care of them and see themselves as doing what’s is needed by contributing to fast offerings? I think there is a good chance many LDS are still contributing to the shooter’s family because they want to convey they really don’t hold that family responsible, they don’t want them to feel guilt or shame, but I may be projecting here. I have just eaten breakfast and my brain has been mostly offline. I probably wouldn’t be posting this last thought that popped into my head otherwise, but I am currently obsessing about the Pew Research that shows LDS as the least liked…about the why when the stereotype is we are really nice people which generally translates to at least likable, if not ‘I would like to hang out with them’, so why not in this case? Not obsessing about the dislike itself though my preference would be it’s not there, but I grew up with this knowledge of dislike, so used to it…..anyone think it’s possible the general dislike of LDS is why the fundraisers for the LDS victims aren’t as significant?

I can see where someone might think someone who was dying or thinking of killing themselves but was worried about their family would do this, but given the horror of what they have to go through, the fear for their own lives, what notoriety that kid is going to be living with the rest of his life most likely, whatever money or financial security they get will not balance out the loss of emotional security. It’s an insane idea and anyone that actually would use it as justification to massacre people is far gone enough any idea justifying that act will work.

When you get a chance, if it’s not difficult since no doubt you have many things on your mind and agenda, let us know about your wife and yourself. I am hoping it will be positive news.❤️

I really, really, really hope no Saints are doing this, but if they are, someone needs to stop them, including by pulling their recommends if necessary if they have them. And if someone is doing it on the behalf of the Saints because they are mourning with us, please find a better way than hurting yet more innocents. If you need someone to harass to vent your pain, then go online where there is hate and harass others with respect and love so maybe there will be someone who chooses the caring path rather than the hating path. Great article, Okra. Glad to hear from his family.

That doesn’t explain why there can’t be other uncreated eternal intelligences though. I am fine if your reasoning is it’s simply your belief that he is the only one.

Nope, you are incomplete… Christ was God before he was a man, so if he did everything he saw his Father do, then the Father was intelligence and god (meaning he possessed the nature of God), and spirit and God (when he assume the office of God before mortality like Christ did as Jehovah) and then mortal man and God (as Christ did as Jesus) and then exalted man and God (as Jesus Christ is now).

Deserves, yes, but often the membership don’t deserve them, imo

I get that the LDS became the face of the campaign. It just seems odd to me to solely focus on the face. Are not the other parts responsible for their actions as well? I assume that the dislike, anger, resentment, and even hatred at times was deeply felt back in the moment. I remember some of the reactions. With such deep feelings, I don’t understand why there isn’t a corresponding deep attachment to all involved that continues. You seem to suggest it is continuing towards the LDS, but not towards others much, if at all (but maybe I am misunderstanding you). The more important something is to me, the more I want to know about it and care about all the connections. It is why I spend a lot of time on even trivial circumstances surrounding the Church. So I don’t get the lack of attention to others even if I get the attention still given to the LDS Church.

Lovely…. I think it’s closer to putting someone’s name on the temple roll though, though more than just that, of course. The mass is not baptism into the Catholic faith.