Calm

Do you have a graph of the rate for total membership from the beginning of the stats, 1920? I would be interested to see how it’s changed over the last hundred years. Of course smaller total membership means smaller baptism numbers might be a higher rate than higher baptism numbers with a much larger membership and there are also many other factors involved, such as improved communication and travel ability (not only for missionaries, but for church leadership), so I am not sure what nuanced analysis such graphs could actually supply.

They reboot it over and over, just like they have done Batman. They aren’t locked into anything they don’t want to be locked into.

Symbolism is not hyperbole. You still haven’t shown anyone saying it’s not figurative, so who isn’t telling the truth? Or are you suggesting ancient prophets never used symbolic language and therefore current prophets presenting it as symbolic/figurative are somehow lying? If so, not impressed by your scholarship.

Apparently it’s heaven as well if you are going to insist that our belief is literal without actual evidence…this below is more evidence hellfire is seen as figurative (symbolic language for suffering) by church leaders…unless everlasting burnings is referring to the celestial glory God shines with or surrounds him as he has been described (see last quote below): https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-18?lang=eng

A portrayal of hell from church’s website:

Does not refer to hell, but being burned at the second coming. I have heard speculation it is nuclear bombs or the power of God’s glory being so intense that burns the wicked.

Iow, figurative for “the pain of guilt”. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-manual/revelation/chapter-56-revelation-17-22?lang=eng

Seriously doesn’t mean literally. Do you think he believes God opens a window in heaven and causes blessings to rain down just like water does on us (somehow hitting the right people)? I would be interested if you can find anyone leader describing hell as literally sitting in the middle of a bonfire or lake of flames.

I read the script and the lyrics (felt I needed to read the whole thing if I was going to call it out as much as I did as racist), but it was eons ago, so my memory may be messed up, but I don’t remember something like that. Of course, reading it may mean the visuals didn’t stick. According to AI, there is a dream of hell, but didn’t give a description that includes hellfire. ”In the musical "The Book of Mormon," the song "Spooky Mormon Hell Dream" features a vivid and darkly humorous depiction of hell as envisioned by Elder Price. In this dream sequence, Elder Price is tormented by figures like Genghis Khan, Jeffrey Dahmer, Hitler, and Johnnie Cochran, who mock him for abandoning his mission companion, Elder Cunningham. The song also includes images of coffee cups, highlighting the musical's playful use of Mormon cultural details. It's important to note that the portrayal of hell in "Spooky Mormon Hell Dream" is a comedic and fictional representation created for the musical and doesn't reflect the theological beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) regarding hell. LDS theology describes hell in more nuanced ways, including a metaphorical "hell on earth" representing emotional torment and a temporary "spirit prison" for sinners before resurrection. A more severe, eternal separation from God, termed "outer darkness," is reserved for a very small subset of humanity who actively rebel against their redemption.” I can’t get clips to play as my internet is currently down, but it does look like there is at least a lot of red in the dream/song sequence. It makes more sense if that is where the ‘hellfire’ came from. I had a dream once about hell sort of (I wasn’t in literal hell, but I was thinking it was a result of me being bad…I was quite young). My hell is apparently not being able to get anyone to acknowledge my existence, no matter how hard I cry, scream, pull on them, not even my parents or siblings (it was terrifying and I woke up crying and couldn’t tell my mom why, it’s one of my earliest memories). I have had a similar dream (I was a teen) to it where everyone was looking up as Christ descended, but all I could do was look at their faces and no one registered my existence. I was not familiar with the left behind series or the theology it came from at the time and they weren’t going anywhere as Christ was coming to us, so I don’t think I picked it up from that. I do have abandonment issues obviously.

Yes and we have joked about it being fire insurance, but I have never talked to a Saint who envisioned it as actual flames…though I admit I haven’t talked to many about it. Those I have talked to see the flames as figurative, more mental and emotional than a physical burning. I have assumed seeing the flames as figurative is the majority/dominant view, but could be wrong.

I believe they justify their mocking of LDS because it is what they are familiar with. As far as Islam, AI had this to say (so I don’t know how accurate): ”In "South Park," the depiction of Prophet Muhammad has been a source of significant controversy and censorship. The show initially depicted Muhammad in the 2001 episode "Super Best Friends" without issue. However, later episodes, particularly "Cartoon Wars Part II" (2006), "200," and "201," faced censorship from Comedy Central due to threats and safety concerns following the 2005 Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. The episodes dealt with the controversy itself, with characters attempting to bring Muhammad into the show, often depicted in a bear suit to avoid direct visual representation.” If I understand correctly, SP creators wrote an episode dealing with the censorship of Muhammad after the threats, but when CC censored it, they altered it to underline/lampoon the censorship. Apparently you can find the uncensored version in some areas—at least the first episode 201 was also censored for the same reason), I am guessing in DVDs. https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2010/apr/22/south-park-censored-fatwa-muhammad https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/200_(South_Park)

Perhaps in some circles, over the years I have seen it severely criticized by many anti racism advocates. I seriously do not get how it could be popular among any but those who are anti Mormon who are also racist. The justification that it is just cartoonish or is intentionally using stereotypical racist portrayals (one justification I have seen) to point out racism or that the Ugandan portrayal is what actual Mormons expect to find all fall quite flat for me given what else gets condemned as racist plus LDS due to their extensive missionary activities tend to hold more realistic views of other countries and cultures in my experience.

My perception is someone is lazy and confusing LDS with those who believe in literal hellfire, primarily I am guessing Fundamentalists.

Does anyone else find this an odd approach for advertising something Mormonish? Not that I see the musical as much more than a racist caricature, but it seems likely created by someone in England not as familiar with our teachings trying to go for something eye catching. https://www.westendtheatre.com/294912/news/the-book-of-mormon-launches-new-ad-campaign-as-it-becomes-the-west-ends-15th-longest-running-musical/

Halconero’s graphs would seem to indicate a steady rate per unit and total membership, which I consider quite acceptable. Slightly lower per full time missionary, which doesn’t surprise me either. I would be interested to see how they are currently using full time missionaries and if it’s significantly different than in previous years, as in what percentage work primarily online; how much tracting is done (which is very inefficient, but probably gets people that wouldn’t be reached any other way).

I get disoriented if I spend too much time on FB even though I mostly watch/read medical and science stuff. I think it may be the jumping from one subject to another without really processing the information. At the end of the session, it’s like having a bag of jumbled up puzzle pieces from different puzzles I need to separate out to use. It also happens though in a different way if I binge watch some series, usually a mystery or fantasy. I think my mind is stuck back in the make believe world and my daily routine therefore doesn’t feel quite normal, lol. My sister and I have both noticed we tend to pick up mannerisms of the actors for a bit after watching a show we were very interested in, speaking rhythms and maybe gestures or at least it feels that way from the inside, maybe not to others watching/hearing us. I know for me I can lose track of my surroundings and just be thoroughly absorbed into even a less than great drama as long as there are some interesting characters or beautiful settings. I assume something similar happens to her.

There is no reference in Bernard’s remarks to the source of the parallelism, perhaps he only wants to examine it in a literary sense, as in its construction, possible purpose, etc. similar to Ben’s comment. On the other post, I am not seeing an insult either, though perhaps Bernard sees suggesting a non spiritual source for scripture construction or lack of an ancient source for something that claims to be ancient scripture as insulting.

The mind where

I just remembered something I was told when my mother was in assisted living. According to the manager at that time (2017 or 2018), Utah lacked the usual number of assisted living centers for the amount of elderly population because it wasn’t as profitable here as there was a higher than typical number of families caring for their elderly parents and grandparents, thus allowing them to stay in their own homes or to move in with family. A strong nuclear family would support in some ways extended family bonds as one is often both a child in one family and parents in another. If the bonds are strong with parents and siblings as a child, those often continue as adults. If this is/was accurate (I vaguely remember her saying this was changing as businesses were getting better at offering comforts, but not sure if she actually said that, I might do some research on this later), it of course isn’t necessarily because of the Church’s teachings since Utah does not equate directly with the Church, but it could indicate that the extended family is a high priority among LDS. It could also be the fact that children may tend to stay local as it has been my impression there are less adults moving away from family here than other places I have lived, but that could be mostly a result of my own extended family and friends (my husband comes from a family of 8 kids who grew up in Orem, all but two now live in Utah along with most of their kids). I also hear constantly of family reunions. It would be interesting to see if LDS have more extended family reunions than others.

I wonder if Covid has led to more people seeking community, including religious community. We may not notice how important something is to us until deprived of the choice. Lockdowns, especially the more severe ones, or perhaps even the threat of them happening if things got worse might trigger greater desires for connection with our neighbours. Another possibility would be seeking meaning, comfort after losing loved ones, of course. See https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3515557/#:~:text=Recent laboratory studies offer preliminary,with their stress [11]. for a non COVID example. Also https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-018-0512-3 for a brief abstract for responses to war, but the article has to be paid for. This is one that looks at those who were exposed to 5 years of rocket fire: https://www.sciencedirect.com/org/science/article/pii/S1462373023000524#:~:text=In addition%2C religiosity provides many,the traumatic exposure [20]. A study tracking where the current baptisms are occurring and seeing if there is any correlation with how hard the area was hit by Covid would be interesting to me.

Given our doctrine on the work for the dead and forever families, it would be relatively easy to modify the emphasis imo.

I was responding to those who were apparently comparing the present generations as if they are somehow lazier or more gluttonous by choice than previous generations when mostly likely it’s the way humanity’s brains have been wired for a long, long time. Unless one has been taught to truly value health over taste and relatively immediate gratification, chances are pick up two people from different eras and they will choose mostly the foods they are most familiar with, whether or not it’s healthy and probably with as much self control.

It’s not like people from the past wouldn’t have eaten the same way if such food was available to them cheaply. They wouldn’t be anymore educated on healthy eating than people are now, in fact probably would be much less healthy in eating habits.

I love that you have disagreements with me. Life would be boring if everyone agreed….and frustrating because from experience I have learned it starts to feel like someone is just not putting energy into thinking about something or is agreeing to avoid bumps when what I actually want to know how they really feel about something because I am trying to support them, do something nice for them, just want to know them better, etc. I haven’t read the book itself, so I am quite open to being wrong. The quotes and my experience with his other books I have read, however, ensure I would require reading it in depth before approving of it though. (I am very familiar with his Thousand Year series or was and even as a teen, while I thought it wasn’t bad if looking for familiarity with the basic story, I could clearly see many of his ‘facts’ were more speculation)

Given we are assigned wards and don’t get to choose which to attend outside of moving to a different house, it is essential in my opinion to keep politics out of church outside of a few crucial moral issues in order that all members can feel they are welcomed an a part of the ward family.