Calm

I like how you have expressed this. I think it’s clearer and more comprehensive than my attempt.

The physical interpretation of clothing is, imo. The concept of modesty as humility, a rejecting of displaying wealth or other things to separate ourselves from others, as better than others in some way…I don’t see that as purely a cultural construct, though of course how people express this will vary by culture.

I think it’s having the wrong assumptions behind these that is the issue rather than these ideas (I believe all these things, but I suspect if I start talking nuances, what they mean to me, it will end up being different from what many others may believe) or possibly just the assumption that these imply that the prophet is essentially the same as God in these circumstances rather than someone who is sharing their own interpretation of the inspiration they received. It’s the assumption that because God is perfect, communication with God will be perfect with his chosen spokesman, forgetting that prophets are still mortal and therefore can never be perfect transmitters of God’s will as long as God refuses to turn them into essentially puppets. When people hear these phrases when they have this perception of what being a prophet is (someone capable of receiving and sharing perfect communication) those ideas reinforce the assumptions they have…the same is probably true for me, when I hear these phrases, I think of how things change, where there have been mistakes or departures from from certain directions for a time and then a reorienting back, so I see these examples as evidence for my interpretation of the phrases rather than contradictions of my belief. For example, the phrase “God won’t allow the prophet to lead us astray” has for me the qualifier of keeping us off the path permanently, taking us in a direction that prevents us from receiving salvation and exaltation permanently. Astray is being stuck, being lost in the thorns and unable to find the way back, not any misstep off the path. I see these Priesthood Ban as a detour from the path of becoming a true Zion people that Joseph showed us in the beginning. Brigham started the detour because in this area of faith he let fear push aside charity (he originally spoke very approvingly in some cases of Black priesthood holders and leaders) and later prophets at least went along with it until the prophets who listened to God’s correction and accepted the spiritual nudging us back in the path God wanted us on (I don’t know if prophets weren’t listening to God’s promptings that came all along before for whatever reason or if God wasn’t prompting until he was). So for me seeing the correction, the removing of the Priesthood Ban doesn’t make me question the astray quote like it might others who interpret it as God will never allow error to occur at all in the Prophet’s teachings, it reinforces for me that God is there, directing church leaders even if they don’t always take his direction perfectly.

I think these can work…though I am still not fond of the phrasing…because the category of false gods presented are completely separate from God the Father so the correct idea of what is damaging about the relationship is being conveyed, as in they have obviously replaced the Father in people’s hearts, they are obviously not seeking God when they seek these things first. However, it is not clear when it’s said we worship a different Jesus or Heavenly Father that the problem is we have replaced the God we should seek after with an idol of our own choosing rather than just misunderstanding who God truly is because of false teachings or just putting the pieces we have together in the wrong way, but still have a pure intention to follow God. The false gods we choose to follow are a result of us choosing to mold God into our own image rather than choosing to place ourselves into his hands to be molded. We may do this in ignorance, but it will still get in the way of us developing a pure relationship with God over time because we are responding to ourselves as we are rather than who God is.

That is the same thing that struck me. It comes too close to being damned for not believing the right theology no matter the intent of our heart and mind and charity of our acts. Find a different way to put it and I can probably enthusiastically get on board.

It seems similar to assuming a univocality for the Bible when there are clearly contrasting views and developing ideas throughout it. I understand the desire for stability and predictability, but I find the idea of continuing revelation, including revelation that will eventually refine our knowledge and experience and remove the mistakes of men quite invigorating and attractive (but likely not in this life imo). I love the idea of eternally progressing.

Besides the overheating, mine were the elastic waist band and lace edging. So itchy and even burning at times (the wider band is much more comfortable). I would have red marks from where I was unconsciously scratching at the lace throughout the day. Elastic irritates my skin….what can I say, my skin is like a delicate flower. Can’t even wear makeup for the most part either (some powders and mascara worked, but never creams or perfumes). I was so grateful when they dumped the lace and they started to make the tops extra long so it would stay tucked in under the waistband, so less rubbing, but the bunching took away the sense of comfort. Much better to make the waistband wider, stays tucked in without bunching as much since the top fits better.

I have never felt comfortable with any bunching of fabric. Bugs me when there’s a wrinkle in my bed sheet. I am so looking forward to these. Feeling secure in them rather than enduring them. That will be a much stronger reminder of the covenant for me.

Not to my view. It says robe, not pants or overalls. I never heard of a robe with legs included. It’s usually defined as an outer or ceremonial gown. And are you suggesting Joseph could see he didn’t have anything on underneath because he could see Moroni’s skin due to the opening down the middle? You don’t pay much attention to clothing design, do you? (I am assuming you are not familiar with the definition of robe and just assumed it was synonymous with clothing.) Webster’s 1828 dictionary entry for “robe”: A splendid or elegant dress. I asked AI to find me examples of robes with legs in them like a loose long john. Its answer (take with grain of salt as always):

I have scars that itch like anything when I sweat and can’t get it off relatively quickly. Not as bad as infections, wouldn’t prevent me from wearing garments, but I used to have to take an extra top with me in my backpack if I was going to be out more than a couple of hours.

I believe they order them through their military branch president and the Church prepares them according to requirements of each military branch (I knew these details when I was ward librarian back in early 2000’s because I went every Wednesday night for Achievement Day and YM/YW and did not have a phone to occupy my mind (hardly anyone needed anything, but my daughter was there and too shy to not have me accessible anyway, so no big deal, I read every manual they had in the library to pass the time). Added: https://assets.ldscdn.org/5c/28/5c284572e58b11eb82d6eeeeac1e5a30d3af98ef/beehive_clothing_form_military_markings_order_form.pdf They used to make the garments themselves, now they place the marks on the required under clothing the member sent them. And it looks like a member can submit the request themselves.

Just because it’s a very, very small number percentage wise of world population doesn’t mean that it’s a small number to keep a secret. Even if only 1% had second thoughts or got drunk and let it slip out or became afraid and wanted out and sought help by exposing them, that is 80 witnesses. Added: Corrected the math, I even had corrected myself beforehand and still wrote it that way. Makes me a bit concerned about calling insurance companies today, lol.

This last quote is the one I have been mostly responding to in sharing these claims, but I am a bit confused about what else you (JVW) have viewed given you dismissed Pyreaux’s caution about viewing videos portraying criminal behavior. What could be so dark and disgusting and abusive, but not criminal?

Yep. Their limited audience is others like them and if I understand correctly, it is a money making operation for many as well as attention getting (wanting to network with others).

Why would people post online if they don’t want people to view their stuff? Maybe they want a limited audience, but they still want an audience. Attention of the type desired can be as rewarding or even more rewarding than money. I can’t remember how you phrased it, but the video you described seemed to be one open to the public. If not, if it was more criminal, needing to be hidden, seems like that is even a better reason to report it. The nonincriminating video, I am assuming that is not one you would use as evidence for Satanic Ritual Abuse since there was apparently no physical evidence?

That is circular…he wanted to be like God because he was lustful, which was because he wanted to become like God. Not informative. Circular arguments are not answers, imo, since you just end up where you started. Too bad. Is there a chance you can step out of the circle or is it pretty much a “we don’t know why it happened”? I respect answers of “we don’t know” or “it’s a mystery”. That is an actual answer as it provides new information even if that information is “there is no additional information available on this topic”. I believe eventually if we get far enough back or forward or small enough, all answers amount to “we don’t know”.

That must be what I remember as “no making of garments at home” because I never did that well with following patterns with stretchy materials, so would have considered it an impossible task. I would also have wanted to choose different fabrics, so again the limitations meant “no making my own” for me.

So not completely seamless as was Christ’s clothing, so it sounds like Joseph at least was willing for some alterations to the heavenly style for practical reasons.

I wonder if Moroni appeared in different clothing at times as garments are not similar to the description given above (quoted by JHLPROF). Makes sense for him to make an exception to show Joseph as easier to teach by sight that words what something is supposed to look like.

They can wear long sleeved and high neck clothing with sleeveless garments. Doesn’t that fill the need for those who see such as more modest?

That prohibition has been around at least since I started buying them unless my memory is messed up. I did some special orders in cotton (the style didn’t come in cotton) because of that. So for 40+ years. (should have finished reading the thread before posting, lol; thanks Ben from saving me the effort to research specifics to check my memory)

That was when it started ramping up iirc, though at least BYU started to allow pants full time, even for employees. As someone who never wore a skirt even one day to high school and mostly lived in jeans, I was typically not too comfortable in my clothing at BYU until I changed to all cotton, full maxi skirts and they started allowing dressier denim. By the time we hit mid90s…ugh.

Like you said different people have different experiences. I think you are so lucky not having to make major adjustments. I miss having options in fabric choice, I prefer a clean look, but even if I iron my cotton and linen clothing, it’s royally creased by the time I am out the door. Even the rayon is hard to keep the clean look with. You probably get to compensate with having to put in extra effort in other areas so I am not too jealous, few get everything to go smoothly for them without significant work and health seems to make things instantly more complicated for people from what I have seen.

I wonder if they would have felt the need to do so if the angels had been more masculine in appearance. There are quite a few paintings with topless or partially topless men in the Gospel Art Kit…though typically angels are men and have a white robe like Moroni or one with tighter sleeves. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/collection/book-of-mormon-all-gospel-art-images?lang=eng

If it is, I don’t see any example of church members ever wearing anything like it. I am assuming JLHPROF is referring to something else, but why use that quote then? It occurs to me JLHPROF may be using “pattern” differently than myself. I am thinking he likely never sewed his or others’ clothes using a pattern, so his use of “pattern” refers to something much more vague than mine. If so, I think it would be very helpful for JLHPROF to provide the specific requirements of the revealed pattern…unless he truly is assuming the original garment worn was the revealed pattern (using it how I would use it…the women were to use their husband’s or a faithful Sister’s garment as the pattern to cut one of their own) And if that is so, where is the pattern of long sleeves and pants joined together and strung up closed for a high collar effect shown as revealed?