Calm

And then you said “proved it”.

‘Many lies’ in one or two places is not equivalent to ‘always taught just lies’ Since you are focusing on semantics, parsing words here in your argument, surely you should be precise in your own claims.

I know this should probably be in Social, but I wouldn’t mind debate on this as I would like to see what the ideas are floating about out there. What is everyone’s comfort level for weddings gifts, especially cash? For family, good friends, and casual friends/neighbours that you don’t party with except at neighborhood things? Not participated in a wedding for over two decades now and it suddenly dawned on me we haven’t changed our typical gift for years and we probably should. We like to give cash because that was the most helpful as we were broke students (I didn’t do a registry as it made no sense to start collecting anything when we anticipated being stuck in student housing for another 4 years; my error probably as we did get some useless gifts, but they were the exception…and it was a lot more work for guests back then and I felt really awkward saying ‘go buy this for me’). I know that Utah often runs lower because the cost of receptions and weddings can be quite low and if one isn’t getting a free meal out of it, that drops it lower, but other than that I am clueless. As those who have possibly received and most likely given wedding gifts in the past, do you see going for the registry gifts as most appropriate, see cash as an always welcomed gift even if rather impersonal and forgettable, or do you prefer something that says something about you as well as the couple so a connection is strengthened?

I agree. I doubt my view is a majority one. I do believe there is conflict between our doctrine and how at times we implement it being human and full of anxieties and fear and therefore desiring a predictable and controllable world for ourselves and our loved ones. Members in my experience often view valiancy in faith as willing to be fully committed to our faith relationship with God on little evidence rather than being loyal once the relationship has been established. I look on it more of a marriage relationship. We often use that as an analogy for our relationship with the Church, but what seems often ignored is the courtship stage of marriage in the analogy. No one would fault another I would hope for wanting to wait to commit fully until there is clear evidence of a reciprocal willingness to commit by a potential spouse, we would encourage people not to elope, to take time to get to know each other, develop trust in smaller ways before diving into the deep end, etc. That is not to say no commitment is desirable until one can be secure. No marriage will ever occur if no one commits at all until they are certain they will be safe because such a restriction on ourselves would prevent us from learning who the other is and if we can trust them to return our love and to care for us in ways that are good for us. I believe the parables of the mustard seed shows what the first step should be, a desire to nurture a seed of faith no matter how small to see if it produces good fruit. I see valiancy mostly applying once the fruit has grown and we have tasted the goodness of the gospel though I can also see valiancy as part of the process of nurturing, as in not only being willing to accept the gift of faith and plant the seed, but to actually care for it as it grows rather than assume if it is worthy of our love, no work is necessary to develop the trust that love needs to be anchored on. We need to be valiant in our efforts to keep nurturing our faith until some sort of fruit is produced that can be tested. How long this process is and what it looks like is internal to the person and therefore not something I can judge…or anyone else unless God gives them that knowledge (which is not automatically conferred imo on anyone with stewardship over another and definitely not for anyone without stewardship). I think most of mortal life is in nurturing of seeds segment even for Saints. We probably have several seeds with different kinds of earths in different stages of fertility, which can complicate the picture and our decisions. As to concern about others getting away with it… It seems to me we are instructed to focus these three virtues most often and most strongly and while God’s justice is spoken of frequently in scripture, it is usually for God to determine and judge. If we as mortals judge without the direction of the Spirit, if we try to simply reason out what is just by what seems fair to us, we will miserably fail because of our limited view of the eternities, including the infiniteness that exists in each of us as eternal beings. How can we balance out the innumerable variations of each individual’s life with the majority likely unknown to us with mortal reasoning?

Sometimes even that will be turned against you. I have never had a problem with God leading someone to another faith that provided them with what they needed at that time, though it took time for me to understand that God might lead someone out of the Gospel in that process. I first accepted the idea with the condition of their relationship with the Church was toxic for them, such as someone had been abused by a church member or had a family that misused gospel principles and messed up their kids. Quite some time ago, having heard many more stories of good people leaving the Church and seeing it happen in my own family, that belief morphed into something more universal I suppose, I believe God both leads people to and allows people to choose opportunities to learn different lessons in life outside of the Restored Gospel without it being seen as a rejection of him (I just don’t see in many circumstances that people have been given enough information or experiences of the kind that can be said should leave little doubt and I don’t believe God would condemn someone for misinterpreting incomplete information about him). Not all need or are best served by being part of the Restored Gospel at certain times in their lives, imo. For many, it is likely that the best time to experience the Gospel is in the next stage of our existence in its purer, less confusing and messed up by mortal human involvement form. If we simply judge by what opportunities most humans have been given in life, post death seems to be when God has arranged for most to receive the Gospel and if he is okay with that for most people, why not even those who have encountered the Restored Gospel while living? The first time I ever shared a form of that belief online due to a critic demanding I answer if I thought it possible for God to tell someone to leave the Church, I was told I was lying because I wanted to look PC and got trashed by her for that. It was a discussion on how members viewed other faiths iirc and the former member critic was apparently offended that I held a positive view, presenting this question thinking she had trapped me as far as I could tell from her rather over the top reaction. She was from a family that had some association with LDS Fundamentalists (of the polygyny kind) and had a rather rigid, limited view of what faithful LDS believed.

And rather odd for anything that involves humans of the nonexalted variety.

I have to amend my comments. The board has a 2020 discussion that mentions a $120,000 one time donation from MGF to FAIR that I had forgotten about. Bluebell*** mentions she thinks it went to hiring a bookkeeper (I think it was on the form). Sounds about right. We have been very slowly adding part time staff to take the ‘mechanical’ burden, like tech support, bookstore and membership and other administrative details off the volunteers (though many like members of the FAIR board and officers have to concern themselves with the nitty gritty still). I will try and remember we have two part timers in administration now (though perhaps our assistant is up to full time now) when I list the paid staff. I have no clue how much tech support we use. I assume that varies based on need. This donation is obviously more substantial than the first, but again not much in comparison to ongoing expenses, imo. I would personally describe that as helping out rather than supporting (a monthly or yearly check one can rely on is supporting in my view). I have no clue how much money over the years MGF received from church affiliated businesses or foundations. I do not have any issue with the Church contributing to good causes and even contributing to paying personal salaries if a full time job, such as someone running a shelter. Defending the Church is a very good cause in my books, so I would not/do not feel uncomfortable mentioning it if I was/am aware of such. I do want to make it clear that no one at FAIR is biased in their presentation because of the influence of money, greed or anything in those lines. We have been doing this for 25 years and more, so no one should be anticipating that we are some day going to be pulling in massive grants or donations that includes FAIR volunteers getting a personal monetary gift come Christmas (only thing we get is a reminder our membership fees—which are used to help offset expenses—are due). This is an effort of love and faithfulness and even sacrifice by many for those apologists involved. ***https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/73335-fair-mormons-new-youtube-branding-strategy/page/14/#findComment-1210004082

Found a reference; lol, Scott (president of FAIR for those not aware of that) also used “smoking gun”…I will admit I tend to roll my eyes when this donation gets brought up given the amount and I would not be surprised if other FAIR members do as well. MGF donated to FAIR a few thousand dollars and then several years later LDS Foundation (nontithing) donated to More Good (and may continue to do so for all I know as I don’t track this stuff myself, but pick it up from conversations, probably why memories are vague). So at that time, FAIR received no tithing dollars and even by the longest stretch possible no money from the Church since funding is not retroactively applied in accounting as far as I am aware.

I have no clear idea where the one time donation that was possibly (being more cautious here because I am relying on memory as it’s one week before the FAIR conference and I avoid asking questions on the list that can be answered elsewhere online because other FAIR volunteers who help out with the conference are over the top busy during this time) indirectly received from the Church came from (added: first donation was received prior to any funding of MGF by church related organization, second one after some donation, times and amounts someone else who cares more can dig out). I am not involved in that side of the operation. I am relatively certain we got a one time donation directly from the More Good Foundation. Iirc, there are claims it gets some funding from the Church, but iirc it was one of the for profit companies owned by the Church that donated, so it goes back to the same argument on how to define tithing dollars, which was decided in court that such funds were not, iirc. It was years ago though, so my memory is vague on details. It was thoroughly discussed on this board, iirc, at least once and likely more than once. Someone looked at our tax forms and thought they found the smoking gun or something that could tarnish FAIR’s reputation…which is odd, because as I said before we have always proclaimed loyalty to the Church and fully admit our biases may influence our writing, choice of speakers, etc. We are not a debate society putting up both sides of the argument. We try hard to keep our facts accurate, but of course our love of the Gospel is going to influence us to give more benefit of the doubt when facts are incomplete (as often happens with history) and draw more positive conclusions on motivations (which are often unstated) than someone who thinks the Church is a fraud and its leaders deceptive. It was not a huge amount iirc in comparison to our needs. Too bad we didn’t get more. 😛

For those who don’t get emails from FAIR announcing this stuff, a section from today’s:

Quite possibly. It has been an ongoing effort of FAIR to involve more women as previously they haven’t been as numerous as men, while in my experience probably run the same these days with struggling….though over my years with FAIR a number of women have been highly influential, for example Juliann who posts here who was highly involved in the founding of FAIR.

No tickets sold at the door this year. Tonight and tomorrow are the last times to get tickets. Please order tonight if possible (I got the impression our helper is heavily booked already for tomorrow, so it would make her life easier; she is someone who deserves help when she needs it ). Don’t worry though… Streaming is possible if unable to attend in person

We have very minimal staff, one admin last I heard and then tech people as needed. They are the only ones getting paid. Not the apologists. The admin staff person was added a few years ago. I have no time sense, but I am pretty sure two more people took over membership after I did it (no pay) before we finally gritted our teeth and accepted it had to be more consistent help, which was only possibly with a paid position. No one answering questions through the elist gets paid, we pay for the privilege in fact. The idea that FAIR members would be influenced by money is laughable. If we were, it would be to stop being involved because no one is making money by doing this at FAIR. FAIR is a hobby for us that we pay for, not an income producing side hustle. Yes, it is wonderful to get donations to pay for necessary equipment and allows us to create content because we can’t just do it with our phones, but money influencing us, please! That is a lazy criticism. There are other criticisms of our motivations that I recognize as possibilities…increase of wealth is most definitely not one of them. As far as being influenced by donations from the Church (I may be out of date, but I am aware of a one time donation tied to the Church, a foundation that has received some funding iirc), why even bother to go there? From the beginning we have always attested being loyal to the Church, we have never claimed to be unbiased. We would be doing the same thing whether they pay us or not (which they don’t). We actually believe in what we are putting out. Even when it comes to details, I might say things slightly different at times than another FAIR member if I was presenting something as FAIR members have a lot of different opinions and a wide range of peripheral beliefs, but I have never had another FAIR member tell me I was wrong or that my opinion needed to change nor has anyone sent out a correction letter for the numerous answers I have provided to those who write to FAIR for answers.

Also aren’t doctors and therapists allowed to keep confidentiality unless there is imminent danger to someone without sacrificing confidentiality completely? Iow, same exception is allowed without vacating the right?

The wife said he was excommunicated for incest with his mother iirc, but she is so not a reliable witness and this was also secondhand (hearsay?) My memory says neither bishop said anything about the excommunication, but it could be wrong. The former (iirc) bishop trying to be helpful in talking casually to an agent shared some info before he realized what he was doing, but pretty sure that was just about the first confession (the father claimed it was one time and in the past, the wife refuses to report to police, but promised she would keep the kids safe)

Yes, I believe you are right

@Robert F. Smith, I think I would prefer to give him your email. PM me it, please.

The US’s loss will be Canada’s gain…reversing the trend that was happening when we were there.

My husband certainly did. He loved teaching and research itself wasn’t bad…especially if you got TAs to do the grunt work. Getting it published though…

Generally speaking, it’s the experience of the professors as well as availability of labs providing hands on experience or other resources of more advanced research that are typically more available to Ivy League schools due to having more money and more research going on that students can participate in. However, non Ivy League schools often have great programs, sometimes even better than Ivy League. Utah Valley University, my husband’s former employer, is well known for financial planning, while if Google is accurate only one Ivy League school has a dedicated business school for undergraduates. Oregon State apparently is highly ranked in forestry, robotics engineering, oceanography, and online economics and business administration, so someone might prefer to go there, especially if money was an issue. Google says Yale might be preferred though if the interest was less traditional and more cutting edge research: If money is no object and grades, etc will open any door, it still doesn’t mean an Ivy League school should automatically be chosen as one’s first option, imo. I never personally look at whether someone has a degree from an Ivy League school instead of another university. I have never cared, even when looking at universities myself. I wanted Stanford or MIT because they were great in physics. Went to BYU because that’s what I could afford as too shy to try for a scholarship elsewhere…don’t have a clue if I would have gotten one since all I had was good grades as too shy for the extracurricular stuff. But seriously, I look at ranking of programs, etc., not the name of the university when judging quality. I pay much more attention to post graduate work (even if they weren’t able to finish because life interfered) and where they are being published and by whom. I do take note if it’s a smaller college, or a community college, or an online one and of the type of degree though, post graduate work rates higher than bachelor’s. A smaller college may have fewer professors and not as broad of a choice of courses, less money and opportunities for labs/field work, etc…actual hands on research themselves in the field or a related one. I also take note of if they have published and where and how scholars or even amateurs that appear credible to me reference their work.

This is what I was essentially talking about. Those who research in a field they were not educated in who are successful tend to have had some overlapping skill training (like how to do credible research, which includes privileging sources appropriately), so they know what criticism applies and how to appropriately respond to it (use it to improve their work versus just get defensive). Those I am aware of tend to be involved in discussions with those who are professionals, so their work is getting frequently critiqued, etc…and these amateurs most likely seek out and listen to the advice of others on how to improve their work and thus show they should be taken seriously. Zealous, I would also like to point out I was not automatically dismissing the video by asking for credentials and familiarity. What I was asking for was information that this guy had done more than just collected criticisms from online commentaries of dubious origins and regurgitated them since I am only vaguely aware of him. He might be a fantastic researcher, etc, but you provided no info on who he was or why we should find him worth our time. I don’t assume something is not worth my time without more info, but given the massive amount of clutter online and my preference for reading, I also don’t click just because someone says “look at this”. There needs to be more to catch my interest, especially if my experience says it’s a problematic issue…. And nonmembers telling people what another faith believes rather than letting members talk for themselves and then discussing it with them (thus allowing for corrections of misunderstandings) tends to be in the category of very high error, so I see the topic as highly problematic. While I am aware of him enough I might have clicked on him if he was challenging misinformation about the Restored Gospel and our Church, I am much less inclined if he is criticizing other faiths as I have no idea how familiar he actually is with them. Thus I requested more info.

So a brief google says the issue is if he was using religious standards to influence his decision. Haven’t watched it yet and won’t today, but am wondering if he was using scripture to point out her justifications were false, that she was misusing it separate from his judgement. Hopefully that is what he did. I can certainly understand the desire to argue with her over her interpretations as that would be my inclination in any discussion with her.

Doesn’t seem likely since newest member is still mid June iirc. Brooklyn signed up in 2021, but appears not to have posted till today. Nice to see them posting as it’s fun to meet new people.

What is the difference in learning a skill through self teaching vs from professionals? PS: by credentials, I mean what makes them a credible source; it doesn’t have to be a university degree, but there needs to be evidence of legitimate experience or training, whether professional or amateur, in the field so as to be able to properly judge the value of relevant information.