teddyaware

Reign how and over what? In case you missed it, the Savior testifies that the nature of the reign of those who overcome the world will be just like his, for they will follow in his same path and footsteps. I’m wondering how exactly you see the following supreme promises of the Savior being fulfilled? Two questions: 1) Precisely who and what are the nations that those who become kings in heaven going to rule over with a rod of iron, in the same way that the Lord himself reigns over this world? 2) What does the Lord mean in verse 26 when he says, “even as I received of my Father?” Please answer plainly and be specific? 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

Of course intelligences had agency, otherwise there would be no rhyme nor reason for them exist! And what makes you think that intelligences would be incapable of acting on their own thoughts and decisions? I believe the intelligences of which we speak are also capable of having meaningful interactions and relationships with other intelligences. After all, in Latter-Day Saint theology intelligences are material beings, and if they’re material beings they’re likely not as different from us as you seem to think they are. I’m sure that when the nature of the existence of uncreated intelligences is fully explained we will understand that these self existent beings are living, thinking agents who are capable of thought and action, and not as different from us as you seem to imagine they would be.

I’m well aware of this fact. My point is that some members of the church fail to understand that the members of the First Presidency are also apostles. President Oaks is the most senior apostle and president of the church, while Jeffrey R Holland is the most senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

I’m sure you’re aware of the fact that the members of the First Presidency are apostles. Therefore President Oaks is the most senior apostle, followed in seniority by Jeffrey R Holland and then Henry B Eyring.

BULLSEYE!!!

I was simply trying to help you to understand that even if you utterly refuse to believe that God can enlighten and empower his sons and daughters to become even as he is, that an honest reading of the New Testament should at very least cause an open minded man to concede that men can progress to the point where they will become very much like God, so much so that God even permits them to sit as crowned kings on the very throne of his eternal rulership and power. Do you believe Christ when he testifies that those who overcome the world will wear heavenly royal crowns and reign as kings in heaven? If you do believe that those who overcome the world will be empowered and authorized to sit on God’s throne to reign as kings in heaven, what do you imagine the role of heavenly kinship entails? Will those so ordained rule and reign as actual kings in heaven, or is kingship in heaven just an empty title?

I was simply trying to help you to understand that even if you utterly refuse to believe that God can enlighten and empower his sons and daughters to become even as he is, that an honest reading of the New Testament should at very least cause an open minded man to concede that men can progress to the point where they will become very much like God, so much so that God even permits them to sit as crowned kings on the very throne of his eternal rulership and power. Do you believe Christ when he testifies that those who overcome the world will wear heavenly royal crowns and reign as kings in heaven? If you do believe that those who overcome the world will be empowered and authorized to sit on God’s throne to reign as kings in heaven, what do you imagine the role of heavenly kinship entails? Will those so ordained rule and reign as actual kings in heaven, or is kingship in heaven just an empty title?

YES!!

Evil thoughts are tantamount to actions in the sight of God. This is why we will be judged for our thoughts, not just for our actions. You also appear to be presuming that the world in which intelligences exist is somehow a very simple one with very little ability to act, when for all we know the state in which intelligences exist may, it it’s own way, be just as complicated, sophisticated, nuanced and chaotic as is our present state of existence.

Good, logical thinking… But I believe those who imagine the idea that impregnation and birth are going to continue after the resurrection is only a later doctrinal development, with no scriptural backing, are in error. I say this because the process of the creation of spirit bodies, in which eternally progressing intelligences may dwell, is set forth with a fair degree of plainness in Doctrine and Covenants 132. And at least as far as I’m concerned, it’s not easy for Yours Truly to ignore or reject a doctrinal concept if it’s thoughtfully presented in the scriptures and spelled out with some specificity. Here are just two of the verses that support the concept of the creation of organized spirit bodies in heaven in which uncreated intelligences may dwell and progress. Doctrine and Covenants 132:19 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of THE SEEDS forever and ever. Doctrine and Covenants 132:30 30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

I guess you’ve forgotten about the Apostle John having written 2 new books of scripture and 3 revelatory epistles that are included in the Standard Works? And how about about the Book of Revelation providing prima facile evidence that John was a great prophet, seer and revelator, especially when it’s understood that he received the same “vision of all things from the beginning to the end” that was revealed to the Brother of Jared? And let’s not forget that the Apostle Matthew wrote a book of scripture that’s included in our Standard Works. And doesn’t it seem highly unlikely to you that the 12 Apostles who stood at the head of the Apostolic Church — men who were taught personally by the Lord for over 3 years and then went on to serve as special Apostolic witnesses of his resurrection — wouldn’t just naturally be prophets seers and revelators? And how are the 12 Apostles of the Holy Land going to be able to render righteous judgment when they judge the 12 tribes of Israel, in fulfillment of Book of Mormon prophecy, if they’re lacking prophetic inspiration and insight? Finally, there a several verses in the Book of Mormon that testify to the fact that the Quorum of the 12 in the Holy Land were all prophets in every sense of the word. Here are just two verses that attest to the fact that all of the Apostles in the Holy Land produced scripture (it appears there are many lost books of scripture that are not in our current New Testament). 40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records (the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth. (1 Nephi 13)

Yes! According to Doctrine and Covenants 93, intelligences can’t even exist without agency. How could intelligences be called intelligent without being able to think?

Isn’t it obvious that if Christ places crowns of heavenly kingship upon the heads to those who overcome the world, empowering them with the power and authority to reign as literal kings in heaven, that such individuals are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted followers of Christ are given the supreme right to be seated on the very throne of his own eternal power, authority and Godhead, that the individuals who are blessed in this most glorious manner are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted disciples are anointed to be the sons of God and joint heirs with Christ in all things that Christ himself possesses, wouldn’t you agree that those who have been so mightily blessed and empowered are, at very least, Godlike? Even the Eastern Orthodox Church understands the plain meaning of these verses, acknowledging that they point to the process of apotheosis or deification, which is the glorification of those who overcome the world to divine levels of spiritual power and authority.

This is cool! This means there’s a good chance that we actually don’t have a literal Father and a Mother in Heaven from whom we’ve inherited Godlike attributes and divine destinies. Move over Family Proclamation and make way for gay temple marriages since being a male and female is no longer of any eternal consequence! Heaven may turn out after all to be nothing more than a unisex neuter world. I guess our resurrected male and female reproductive organs will be nothing more than nonfunctional biological vestiges, kind of like the knobs at the base of our spines where our distant ancestors used to have tails.

But that’s the point isn’t it? You swallow like sweetest honey the idea that Jesus Christ can simultaneously be both fully God and fully man, but then you’re scandalized beyond measure at the mere thought of the possibility that God the Father could also be fully God and fully man! And since within Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, it logically follows that it wouldn’t detract one iota from God the Father’s divinity if he also had a body. And why wouldn’t the person of God the Father want the added benefit of a material body if being tabernacled in flesh would in no way diminish from his holiness and perfection? And if having a body is so unimportant, why was God, in the person of Christ, resurrected with a tangible body of flesh and bone?

1) It can be said that the organized spirit bodies of the spirit children of God were a kind of spiritual tabernacle for the uncreated intelligences that we all were prior to our spiritual birth in heaven as the sons and daughters of God. 2) Doctrine and Covenants 93 makes it perfectly clear that all intelligences, no matter how advanced in knowledge or rudimentary they might be, have agency. The inherent agency and preservation of the agency of all intelligences is so indispensably important that there is no point to existence unless intelligences have agency. A question: What would be the point of God creating humanoid automatons who can’t think and decide for themselves? The fact that God allowed fallen Lucifer and the tree of the knowledge to be and exist in Eden prior to fall bespeaks to the importance of the inviolability of agency in the mind of God. The following verse plainly reveals that without the agency of all intelligences there would have been no rational reason for the creation. After reading and digesting this post, there should be no reason for you to continue asking the same question about agency… 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

To any knowledgeable, testimony bearing member of the church, it’s perfectly obvious that in this verse the Lord extends to the saints the most glorious promise of exaltation and enthronement with him as eternal kings and priests, as well as eternal queens and priestesses, to those men and women who overcome the world through a dynamic, overcoming faith in Christ. It’s clear that these divine thrones of eternal power are obtained only when the recipients wash their garments until pure and white in the blood of Christ, and by a obtaining a high personal righteousness that can only gained through a steadfast reliance on the salvative power of Jesus Christ. Your ‘commentary’ is frivolous, windows of the great and spacious building style mockery.

How do you interpret the following verses of scripture? 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3) and… 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

I’m wondering if President Oaks is considering younger, more physically capable members of the First Presidency who will be able to travel without difficulty and freely interact personally with the saints?

The scriptures of the Latter-Day Saints testify that no intelligent being can exist, no mater how simple and basic it might be, unless it has agency. This means that forever into the past and forever into the future each individual intelligence always has had and always will have agency. God is the author of freedom, and as such he has no reason nor interest in creating non-intelligent automations that have no reason to exist other than to merely take up space. Also, the notion that God is some sort of passionless cosmic supercomputer is erroneous. 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

The context of the verse in question indicates that the Lord is referring to the creation of men on earth. The knowledge he says he gave them from birth is the light of Christ, “the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

All the spirit sons and daughters of God who obtain tabernacles of flesh and blood when they are born on this earth are mercifully given the light of Christ — a portion of God’s own spiritual intelligence — that they might intuitively comprehend the difference between good and evil. The light of Christ is the illuminating spiritual light of conscience that gives spiritual understanding and insight to every man and woman who comes into the world.

Exactly! Even God himself is not exempt from the need to prove his own fidelity to the truth by being commanded to pass through unimaginably difficult tests of loyalty to the truth, trials of faith and courage that were infinitely and eternally more difficult and challenging than the tests of faith faced by any of the other spirit sons or daughters of God. As President Hollander testified in his last General Conference address, even Jesus Christ had to battle against extreme discouragement and doubt. THIS is why he is worthy of our worship — against the onslaught of the full weight and fury of the forces of spiritual darkness he emerged victorious against all odds as the greatest of all imaginable conquering heros. We worship and honor him not because he can’t help but be good, but because he mightily wrestled against very real human weaknesses and ultimately triumphed over them because in his great love for the Father and for us HE WANTED AND UNRESERVEDLY CHOSE TO BE GOOD! The atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ is, by far, the greatest of all miracles because the struggle Christ willingly engaged in, and successfully fought, was immeasurably difficult — even an infinite and eternal struggle to bless us with the sacred freedom to choose.

I think this struggle for non Latter-Day Saint Christians to come to grips with the absolute necessity for all intelligent beings needing to have moral agency grows out of the mistaken idea that God is able to create ex nihilo intelligent beings that are perfectly good. without them having to be tried and proved by adversity. Of course, this brings up the inevitable question that if God actually is able to create perfectly good intelligent beings without them having to be tried, tested and thereby be refined, why did he make such a monumental mess out of things by unnecessarily bringing Lucifer and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil into the garden of Eden? Why did he not leave well enough alone? Meanwhile, the scriptures of the Latter-Day Saints testify that without all intelligent beings having the ability and inalienable right to choose between good and evil, it wouldn’t be possible for anything to exist! This can only mean the justice and mercy are immutable laws that cannot be ignored or overridden in any way, and without justice and mercy being the foundational laws of reality there would be no logical reason to even attempt to create anything. Without justice and mercy bearing sway and having the final say in all things, there is no reason to create anything. 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)