teddyaware

The fact that through the atonement of Jesus Christ nearly all of mankind will receive a glorious physically and spiritually healing resurrection, and thereafter obtain a sure inheritance in one of the Father’s heavenly mansion’s of glory, where they will receive joy and a very real deliverance from the transitory effects of evil, any of apparent philosophical loose ends that uninspired men continue to wrestle with as they confront the so-called problem of evil will be dispelled and banished forever. Since all will eventually be saved and redeemed (the only exception being that class of men who utterly refuse to receive Christ’s forgiveness and be saved) our experience in coming face to face with evil is going to end marvelously and miraculously well. In the end, the divine laws of justice and mercy are going to be fully satisfied, and consequently there will be none remaining who will rightly be able to protest that they are yet the victims of unresolved injustices. In the end everything is going to wonderfully work out for the best, with truth, the sum total of existence, remaining eternal and unchanged forever more. I know that there are many who will say that these scripturally based answers are too pat and facile to take seriously because there are some who take a certain measure of perverse handwringing “joy” by being forever perplexed and troubled, shunning simple and reasonable answers to life’s great questions. I suppose it’s like finally catching that proverbial big fish and instantly wanting to throw in back into the lake.

While I’ve been engaged in heated debates on this discussion with bitter critics of the restored gospel, I hope you’ll excuse me if the thought happened to pass through my mind that these earthly verbal battles are at least somewhat similar to what occurred during the ideological war in heaven. A question for you: Do you see any similarities at all between the war in heaven and when believers in the restored gospel of Christ verbally defend the church against its enemies? If you fail to see any similarities between the two, please explain to me the reasons why you believe they’re dissimilar? But before answering please consider the fact that for many years the leaders of the church frequently warn the members that the war in heaven is continuing to be fought here on earth.

If you follow my dialogue on this thread with marineland, you’ll be better able to understand the reason why I made my point. But to directly answer your question (which is somewhat unrelated to the point I was actually trying to make), the answer is an emphatic yes! While engaged in debates on this board with some of the anti-Mormons, embittered former church members, and disaffected members of record who participate on this board, there are many times when intense arguments focused on controversial issues feel more like pitched verbal battles than polite conversations focused on benign ideas. Personally, I view the winning side of the war in heaven as victorious intelligences who engaged in an arduous, emotion charged verbal conflict that was focused on our eternal destiny, a veritable war of ideas that was won with will (testimony), mind (godly knowledge and wisdom) and heart (great love and devotion to our just, wise and loving God).

Evil thoughts, ideas and emotions that may negatively affect others and are at variance with the righteousness of God and holy intentions. This discussion board perfectly illustrates the battles of will, mind and heart in which intelligences can be engaged.

You refuse to answer the perfectly reasonable questions I asked you. I believe your hesitancy to provide straightforward answers is due to either your ignorance or your unwillingness to acknowledge that in the verses quoted it’s clear that Christ is plainly and unambiguously promising the fully faithful that they will become as he is — joint heirs of the Father who inherit all the divine powers and attributes that he himself possesses. Why else would Christ give those who overcome the world the right to be seated on the very throne of God, the great tangible symbol of his divine power and authority? Isn’t it obvious that it would be blasphemous for Christ to give anyone the right to rule as heavenly kings on the throne of God unless those so blessed were fully worthy to receive that supreme honor? Why would Christ commit blasphemy? 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

I’m surprised you would think that the time of a fratricidal Nephite civil war being waged by the rebellious Nephite kingmen, traitors who were in league with the murderous Lamanites, and a simultaneous war of total destruction that was being waged by the Lamanites against the Nephite civilization and their Christian religion, would be a propitious time for the exercise the spiritual gift of forbearance? How exactly would the gift of forbearance be applied in this situation? Should captain Moroni have allowed the treasonous kingmen and hate inspired Lamanites to win a few major battles without even putting up a fight, in the hope that these vicious internal and external enemies would suddenly awake to the error or their ways and plead for forgiveness? Nevertheless, the following verses plainly demonstrate that when the opportunity presented itself captain Moroni did indeed attempt to extend mercy and forbearance to his enemies… (To set the stage, the Nephite dissenter Zerahemnah, who was the leader of the Lamanite armies, had just been defeated in battle by captain Moroni’s forces. The following excerpt from the post-battle words of warning of Moroni to Zerahemnah powerfully demonstrate Moroni’s attitude of mercy and forbearance, even after hundreds of his men had been slain and gravely wounded by the Lamanites in pitched battle.) 1 And it came to pass that they did stop and withdrew a pace from them. And Moroni said unto Zerahemna: Behold, Zerahemnah, that we do not desire to be men of blood. Ye know that ye are in our hands, yet we do not desire to slay you. 2 Behold, we have not come out to battle against you that we might shed your blood for power; neither do we desire to bring any one to the yoke of bondage. But this is the very cause for which ye have come against us; yea, and ye are angry with us because of our religion. 3 But now, ye behold that the Lord is with us; and ye behold that he has delivered you into our hands. And now I would that ye should understand that this is done unto us because our religion and our faith in Christ. And now ye see that ye cannot destroy this our faith. 4 Now ye see that this is the true faith of God; yea, ye see that God will support, and keep, and preserve us, so long as we are faithful unto him, and unto our faith, and our religion; and never will the Lord suffer that we shall be destroyed except we should fall into transgression and deny our faith. 5 And now, Zerahemnah, I command you, in the name of that all-powerful God, who has strengthened our arms that we have gained power over you, by our faith, by our religion, and by our rites of worship, and by our church, and by the sacred support which we owe to our wives and our children, by that liberty which binds us to our lands and our country; yea, and also by the maintenance of the sacred word of God, to which we owe all our happiness; and by all that is most dear unto us— 6 Yea, and this is not all; I command you by all the desires which ye have for life, that ye deliver up your weapons of war unto us, and we will seek not your blood, but we will spare your lives, if ye will go your way and come not again to war against us. (Alma 44)

I would call it the gift of forbearance, which can be defined as the divinely inspired wisdom to withhold premature condemnation of sinners so as to allow the children of men to learn through their own experience how to discern, comprehend and fully prize the love, goodness and mercy of God. Think of the experience of Alma the younger and how by allowing him to make all kinds of terrible judgements and destructive actions, even while the Lord wisely withheld premature harsh judgement against him, the groundwork was laid for this “most vile of all sinners” to become one of most righteous, profoundly thankful and fully devoted men of God who ever lived!

Reign how and over what? In case you missed it, the Savior testifies that the nature of the reign of those who overcome the world will be just like his, for they will follow in his same path and footsteps. I’m wondering how exactly you see the following supreme promises of the Savior being fulfilled? Two questions: 1) Precisely who and what are the nations that those who become kings in heaven going to rule over with a rod of iron, in the same way that the Lord himself reigns over this world? 2) What does the Lord mean in verse 26 when he says, “even as I received of my Father?” Please answer plainly and be specific? 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)

Of course intelligences had agency, otherwise there would be no rhyme nor reason for them exist! And what makes you think that intelligences would be incapable of acting on their own thoughts and decisions? I believe the intelligences of which we speak are also capable of having meaningful interactions and relationships with other intelligences. After all, in Latter-Day Saint theology intelligences are material beings, and if they’re material beings they’re likely not as different from us as you seem to think they are. I’m sure that when the nature of the existence of uncreated intelligences is fully explained we will understand that these self existent beings are living, thinking agents who are capable of thought and action, and not as different from us as you seem to imagine they would be.

I’m well aware of this fact. My point is that some members of the church fail to understand that the members of the First Presidency are also apostles. President Oaks is the most senior apostle and president of the church, while Jeffrey R Holland is the most senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

I’m sure you’re aware of the fact that the members of the First Presidency are apostles. Therefore President Oaks is the most senior apostle, followed in seniority by Jeffrey R Holland and then Henry B Eyring.

BULLSEYE!!!

I was simply trying to help you to understand that even if you utterly refuse to believe that God can enlighten and empower his sons and daughters to become even as he is, that an honest reading of the New Testament should at very least cause an open minded man to concede that men can progress to the point where they will become very much like God, so much so that God even permits them to sit as crowned kings on the very throne of his eternal rulership and power. Do you believe Christ when he testifies that those who overcome the world will wear heavenly royal crowns and reign as kings in heaven? If you do believe that those who overcome the world will be empowered and authorized to sit on God’s throne to reign as kings in heaven, what do you imagine the role of heavenly kinship entails? Will those so ordained rule and reign as actual kings in heaven, or is kingship in heaven just an empty title?

I was simply trying to help you to understand that even if you utterly refuse to believe that God can enlighten and empower his sons and daughters to become even as he is, that an honest reading of the New Testament should at very least cause an open minded man to concede that men can progress to the point where they will become very much like God, so much so that God even permits them to sit as crowned kings on the very throne of his eternal rulership and power. Do you believe Christ when he testifies that those who overcome the world will wear heavenly royal crowns and reign as kings in heaven? If you do believe that those who overcome the world will be empowered and authorized to sit on God’s throne to reign as kings in heaven, what do you imagine the role of heavenly kinship entails? Will those so ordained rule and reign as actual kings in heaven, or is kingship in heaven just an empty title?

YES!!

Evil thoughts are tantamount to actions in the sight of God. This is why we will be judged for our thoughts, not just for our actions. You also appear to be presuming that the world in which intelligences exist is somehow a very simple one with very little ability to act, when for all we know the state in which intelligences exist may, it it’s own way, be just as complicated, sophisticated, nuanced and chaotic as is our present state of existence.

Good, logical thinking… But I believe those who imagine the idea that impregnation and birth are going to continue after the resurrection is only a later doctrinal development, with no scriptural backing, are in error. I say this because the process of the creation of spirit bodies, in which eternally progressing intelligences may dwell, is set forth with a fair degree of plainness in Doctrine and Covenants 132. And at least as far as I’m concerned, it’s not easy for Yours Truly to ignore or reject a doctrinal concept if it’s thoughtfully presented in the scriptures and spelled out with some specificity. Here are just two of the verses that support the concept of the creation of organized spirit bodies in heaven in which uncreated intelligences may dwell and progress. Doctrine and Covenants 132:19 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of THE SEEDS forever and ever. Doctrine and Covenants 132:30 30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.

I guess you’ve forgotten about the Apostle John having written 2 new books of scripture and 3 revelatory epistles that are included in the Standard Works? And how about about the Book of Revelation providing prima facile evidence that John was a great prophet, seer and revelator, especially when it’s understood that he received the same “vision of all things from the beginning to the end” that was revealed to the Brother of Jared? And let’s not forget that the Apostle Matthew wrote a book of scripture that’s included in our Standard Works. And doesn’t it seem highly unlikely to you that the 12 Apostles who stood at the head of the Apostolic Church — men who were taught personally by the Lord for over 3 years and then went on to serve as special Apostolic witnesses of his resurrection — wouldn’t just naturally be prophets seers and revelators? And how are the 12 Apostles of the Holy Land going to be able to render righteous judgment when they judge the 12 tribes of Israel, in fulfillment of Book of Mormon prophecy, if they’re lacking prophetic inspiration and insight? Finally, there a several verses in the Book of Mormon that testify to the fact that the Quorum of the 12 in the Holy Land were all prophets in every sense of the word. Here are just two verses that attest to the fact that all of the Apostles in the Holy Land produced scripture (it appears there are many lost books of scripture that are not in our current New Testament). 40 And the angel spake unto me, saying: These last records (the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price) which thou hast seen among the Gentiles, shall establish the truth of the first, which are of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, and shall make known the plain and precious things which have been taken away from them; and shall make known to all kindreds, tongues, and people, that the Lamb of God is the Son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him, or they cannot be saved. 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth. (1 Nephi 13)

Yes! According to Doctrine and Covenants 93, intelligences can’t even exist without agency. How could intelligences be called intelligent without being able to think?

Isn’t it obvious that if Christ places crowns of heavenly kingship upon the heads to those who overcome the world, empowering them with the power and authority to reign as literal kings in heaven, that such individuals are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted followers of Christ are given the supreme right to be seated on the very throne of his own eternal power, authority and Godhead, that the individuals who are blessed in this most glorious manner are, at very least, Godlike? And if these same devoted disciples are anointed to be the sons of God and joint heirs with Christ in all things that Christ himself possesses, wouldn’t you agree that those who have been so mightily blessed and empowered are, at very least, Godlike? Even the Eastern Orthodox Church understands the plain meaning of these verses, acknowledging that they point to the process of apotheosis or deification, which is the glorification of those who overcome the world to divine levels of spiritual power and authority.

This is cool! This means there’s a good chance that we actually don’t have a literal Father and a Mother in Heaven from whom we’ve inherited Godlike attributes and divine destinies. Move over Family Proclamation and make way for gay temple marriages since being a male and female is no longer of any eternal consequence! Heaven may turn out after all to be nothing more than a unisex neuter world. I guess our resurrected male and female reproductive organs will be nothing more than nonfunctional biological vestiges, kind of like the knobs at the base of our spines where our distant ancestors used to have tails.

But that’s the point isn’t it? You swallow like sweetest honey the idea that Jesus Christ can simultaneously be both fully God and fully man, but then you’re scandalized beyond measure at the mere thought of the possibility that God the Father could also be fully God and fully man! And since within Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, it logically follows that it wouldn’t detract one iota from God the Father’s divinity if he also had a body. And why wouldn’t the person of God the Father want the added benefit of a material body if being tabernacled in flesh would in no way diminish from his holiness and perfection? And if having a body is so unimportant, why was God, in the person of Christ, resurrected with a tangible body of flesh and bone?

1) It can be said that the organized spirit bodies of the spirit children of God were a kind of spiritual tabernacle for the uncreated intelligences that we all were prior to our spiritual birth in heaven as the sons and daughters of God. 2) Doctrine and Covenants 93 makes it perfectly clear that all intelligences, no matter how advanced in knowledge or rudimentary they might be, have agency. The inherent agency and preservation of the agency of all intelligences is so indispensably important that there is no point to existence unless intelligences have agency. A question: What would be the point of God creating humanoid automatons who can’t think and decide for themselves? The fact that God allowed fallen Lucifer and the tree of the knowledge to be and exist in Eden prior to fall bespeaks to the importance of the inviolability of agency in the mind of God. The following verse plainly reveals that without the agency of all intelligences there would have been no rational reason for the creation. After reading and digesting this post, there should be no reason for you to continue asking the same question about agency… 30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. (Doctrine and Covenants 93)

To any knowledgeable, testimony bearing member of the church, it’s perfectly obvious that in this verse the Lord extends to the saints the most glorious promise of exaltation and enthronement with him as eternal kings and priests, as well as eternal queens and priestesses, to those men and women who overcome the world through a dynamic, overcoming faith in Christ. It’s clear that these divine thrones of eternal power are obtained only when the recipients wash their garments until pure and white in the blood of Christ, and by a obtaining a high personal righteousness that can only gained through a steadfast reliance on the salvative power of Jesus Christ. Your ‘commentary’ is frivolous, windows of the great and spacious building style mockery.

How do you interpret the following verses of scripture? 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3) and… 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (Revelation 2)