"visions Of Glory" - Nonsense? Or Legit?

[bdouglas]

There is a member of my family who has gone kind of crazy over this book. He claims the book is a "sifter and a separator", preparatory to the Lord's second coming, i.e., that the book serves to sift and separate the sheep from the goats. I guess he means that those who believe in the book are the sheep and those who don't will, at the time of the Lord's coming, be found on the Lord's left, among the goats.

 

At first I found this kind of funny, and I forgot about it; but as time went on and I found this family member was really serious about this, he held firmly to this idea and his regard not only for the book but Spencer (the central figure in the book) only grew. So I decided to get the book and read it and see firsthand what he was talking about.

 

Right off, before I'd even got through the Introduction, I ran into problems. This bit, coming right at the first, put me off from the git go:

 

“[spencer] is loving and kind, and his face literally glows with the Spirit as he describes his experiences. He tears up when he uses the name of the Savior.”

 

Sentimentality is not the same thing as spirituality. Maybe it is the influence of Disney cartoons or pop culture generally, but Mormons seem have an inexhaustible appetite for the sentimental and sensational. But the scriptures are the opposite of sentimental and sensational.

 

And this:

 

"Spencer began to have visions in his early twenties and has consistently been admonished by the Holy Spirit to keep most of these experiences sacred and even secret."

 

Well you can't have it both ways. If he was admonished to keep them secret, why was this book written? I think it's because he really does want to have it both ways. But you can't.

 

And this:

 

"Visions and events that were only personal or too sacred to share have been withheld."

 

We're only getting the tip of the iceberg here, only the tip!

 

And this:

 

"[spencer] sustains the living prophet and his preeminent calling in revealing the word of God to the church. These visions were given to Spencer to prepare him personally for what lay ahead in his own life."

 

So again, why is he revealing them in a book that now that sells on Amazon and other venues?

 

And this:

 

"Another reason for his reticence is that Spencer is a professional counselor of children and holds all of the degrees necessary to work in the this field … he does not want any form of recognition of curiosity to disrupt this most important work."

 

This is one of two mentions of the worldly degrees Spencer holds——and all of them "advanced", in another part of the book his degrees are characterized as "advanced". But why this mention of "degrees", or "advanced degrees"? This is a book about visions of the other world, which has nothing to do with "advanced degrees".

 

So already I've run into problems and I'm not even all the way through the Introduction. I will later learn, second-hand from a reader review on Amazon, that Spencer claims for himself some extraordinary honors! He beholds in vision that his office in the New Jerusalem is next to the Lord's office (this to make it easier for the Lord to consult with him at a moment's notice, I guess; apparently Spencer didn't read Elder McConkie's talk on the evils of "special relationships" with the Lord or the need to keep a respectful distance between ourselves and Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the creator of heaven and earth and all things that are, etc., etc.; or Robert Millett's comment that the distance between ourselves and Christ is "almost infinite"), and that he is the man who rescues the Ten Tribes. I guess he is a kind of a latter day Moses.

 

Later I picked up the book again and tried to get through some of the middle bits. I read the part about evil spirits inhabiting the bodies of addicts and drunks, and was reminded of another NDE book I'd read somewhere at some time that had very similar descriptions of demonic possession and visions of seedy, dimly lit bars and other such dens of iniquity.

 

Two things passed through my mind. First, why is it that, in books like this, the wicked are always portrayed as people in bars, drug addicts, etc? These are people who are engaged in self-destructive behavior, and as such are deserving of the Lord's mercy; whereas Babylon, the real Babylon, Nephi's "great and abominable church" or Nibley's rich and respectable worldly Babylon, are never mentioned. And secondly, if somebody were to go through all of the NDE books of the last 40 years or so, would he find anything new in "Visions" (besides Spencer's self-aggrandizing bits)? Or would it be like a pastiche of odds and ends from all of these NDE books? There is one bit in the book where Spencer waxes scientific, noting that in the other world space "bends", or something like that; but then in one of the reviews on Amazon a reader notes that this bit appears to have come straight out of "A Wrinkle In Time" (a book my children have read but not me).

 

Bottom line:

 

This book is like candy, and LDS who like candy will gobble it up. It has all of the things that make for a LDS pop sensation: lots of end-time action, visions and prophecy, and gobs of sentimentality. It is pop Mormonism, but that is all it is.

 

In my humble opinion.

Edited June 21, 2014 by bdouglas

[The Nehor]

There is a member of my family who has gone kind of crazy over this book. He claims the book is a "sifter and a separator", preparatory to the Lord's second coming, i.e., that the book serves to sift and separate the sheep from the goats. I guess he means that those who believe in the book are the sheep and those who don't will, at the time of the Lord's coming, be found on the Lord's left, among the goats.

 

To think God went through all the trouble with gold plates and recording the stories of the inhabitants of the Americas to create a book for our day and all the tribulations Joseph and the Nephites went through to record, protect, and translate the records when God could have just skipped the whole thing and brought in Spencer.

[sethpayne]

 

This book is like candy, and LDS who like candy will gobble it up. It has all of the things that make for a LDS pop sensation: lots of end-time action, visions and prophecy, and gobs of sentimentality. It is pop Mormonism, but that is all it is.

 

In my humble opinion.

 

 

Well, the only particular I would disagree with you on is your point about not having it both ways.  The Book of Mormon too has it both ways.  We have been given a bit but much much much more was not recorded and even the majority of the record has been withheld.  But this is just a minor nit pick.

 

I think you are probably right but the more I've considered religious experience, generally, I guess I lean towards believing that if a person finds encouragement within a book like this and doesn't cause them to lose sight of life's bigger picture, then all is well.  

 

I think most people read books like this that way.  With curiosity and some interest but it also attracts some who end up calling the book a "sifter."

 

Thanks for sharing.

[CA Steve]

I started a similar thread about a friend who claims to frequently talk with dead people, in which it was pointed out by Juliann that it was probably a result of this book, which as it turns out, was spot on.

 

How does one address this issue tactfully in a culture whose foundation is based on reuniting with loved ones in the next life?

 

How does one distinguish between similar experiences in the temple and daily experiences outside?

 

Why is a person claiming to have frequent visions (for lack of a better word) any less believable than those who claim to have had a few?

 

And why has our view on these type of experiences changed so dramatically (as in too sacred to speak about) from the early years of the church when such events were experienced and spoken about frequently and publicly?

Edited June 21, 2014 by CA Steve

[sethpayne]

I started a similar thread about a friend who claims to frequently talk with dead people, in which it was pointed out by Julian that it was probably a result of this book.

 

How does one address this issue tactfully in a culture whose foundation is based on reuniting with loved ones in the next life?

 

How does one distinguish between similar experiences in the temple and daily experiences outside?

 

Why is a person claiming to have frequent visions (for lack of a better word) any less believable than those who claim to have had a few?

 

And why has our view on these type of experiences changed so dramatically (as in too sacred to speak about) from the early years of the church when such events were experienced and spoken about frequently and publicly?

 

What do you see as the real harm with your friend believing that they talk to dead folks?   I have some friends who come from a culture with shamanistic and ancestor veneraction influences.  They believe they are led by their ancestors and that some animals indicate certain signs etc.... But they also have college degrees, hold down good jobs, and have great families.

 

When does a "weird belief" become problematic?

[CA Steve]

What do you see as the real harm with your friend believing that they talk to dead folks?   I have some friends who come from a culture with shamanistic and ancestor veneraction influences.  They believe they are led by their ancestors and that some animals indicate certain signs etc.... But they also have college degrees, hold down good jobs, and have great families.

 

When does a "weird belief" become problematic?

When does a belief become problematic? I don't know. This lady holds two masters degrees and raised and supported a large family on her own. At this time I see no harm in what she believes but on the other hand I suppose a lot of non LDS would see no harm in our beliefs about celestial families and eternal progression. I see no harm in a Scientologist who thinks an Emeter actually measures anything.

I expect it would become problematic if it started to become generally accepted in the Church. For me it would become problematic if my wife started mimicking her friend's behavior. (Mainly because if any of my dead friends start talking to her I am in big trouble. )

[juliann]

 

 

When does a "weird belief" become problematic?

Speaking to the book, when it is proselyted as part of the gospel....in church.  As I said, we have had two members bearing testimony of this book in F&T.  I think this book is of much more concern than OW given the way it is creeping into church through well meaning members.

 

bdouglas, I noticed the same problems.  When my husband was dying I read every near death book I could get my hands on.  I no longer have them but I also remember the book by a woman about the evil spirits hanging around bars waiting to possess drunks.  His description of them having writhing orgasms on the floor next to the guy at the computer in his underpants had a really uncomfortable, eh, you seem to be a little too into this vibe. I think Spencer has cribbed everything from books to movies to scripture, never with attribution as there are no footnotes, other than some references to scripture and Scrooge.  He uses every last days cliche, scripture,  and stays along the trail of folklorish beliefs to give it an air of authenticity as he loads it with what I can only describe as howlers.

 

The "asians" are the bad guys who take over America and as he goes up the west coast from Canada with noble churchy people, they find this magic truck left behind, see.   And it has a thingie that gives them all the water they need!  And by golly, it runs on used french fry oil! Which, even though they only have the stuff on their backs, they trade for all the way to Canada!  Because we all know that every city that survives the apocalypse will have barrels of the stuff on hand.

 

The story that just wants to make you bang your head is his rescue of one of the ten tribes.  Now, if anything, Spencer is literal.  So they are in the arctic living in sealed off caves underground, afraid of the world.  Now, this will really tug at your heart...they are "indians".  All with the dark hair, same eyes, dressed the same.  As all "indians" are. But Spencer was sent as the only one they would trust, because he has suffered so much, they would recognize him as a kindred spirit.  He belongs to the Fellowship of the Suffering Christ (don't remember exact name and I keep getting it mixed up with Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.)   Anyway, if you google it, it is a biblical term used mostly by pastors.

 

It's been awhile but I ended up filling up pages with the contradictions and absurdities. My favorite was his story of seeing his mother giving birth to him, she was kind of a loser, but he grants her redemption while all others who haven't made the grade at the time of Spencer's greatness are goners.  Anyway, I digress.  He is so speshul, that two nurses in that room with the other staff were....angels in stolen uniforms!  (Or maybe they have a uniform factory somewhere).   And nobody recognized them!  Yup, you can be a complete stranger in a hospital room and not one other staff member will notice.  Soooo cool. 

 

And while he is watching himself in one of his many illnesses, he hears the nurses yelling "we're losing him!  We're losing him!"  At which point one of my doctor friends burst out laughing and said nobody says that in a medical crisis, it doesn't give anyone the information they need to act upon. But back to the story....while he is chillin' above his body, he goes out and violates his wife's agency by possessing her, then he meanders around the hospital and enters a wood desk that is horribly suffering because somebody was fooling around on top of it.  And guess who it was!  Guess!  You will never see this coming!  They kick him out of the hospital right away because even though he was in critical condition, they can't diagnose it.  So no need to do anything else, even though he can hardly walk. So they do let him stagger to the doctor's business office.  Tough love for this hospital, no wheelchairs allowed. OK, wait for it...wait for it...what does he see when he walks in? Why, the suffering wood desk he possessed as he walked through the walls!  It was his doctor having an affair with the nurse!  [On a desk.....we have all seen enough movies to know that people love to knock everything off and literally climb to the hardest most uncomfortable surface available while "code blue! code blue!  We are losing him!  We are losing him! echoes down the halls of Gray's Anatomy a SLC hospital.] see edit below.

 

This is just the start, folks.

 

Edit: In looking through my notes, the doctor was writing a letter to the woman on the desk, not doing the deed.  And they did put him in a wheelchair, after telling him that "this happens all the time."  I will stick to quotes instead of my memory henceforth.

Edited June 22, 2014 by juliann

[bdouglas]

Speaking to the book, when it is proselyted as part of the gospel....in church.  As I said, we have had two members bearing testimony of this book in F&T.  I think this book is of much more concern than OW given the way it is creeping into church through well meaning members.

 

bdouglas, I noticed the same problems.  When my husband was dying I read every near death book I could get my hands on.  I no longer have them but I also remember the book by a woman about the evil spirits hanging around bars waiting to possess drunks.  His description of them having writhing orgasms on the floor next to the guy at the computer in his underpants had a really uncomfortable, eh, you seem to be a little too into this vibe. I think Spencer has cribbed everything from books to movies to scripture, never with attribution as there are no footnotes, other than some references to scripture and Scrooge.  He uses every last days cliche, scripture,  and stays along the trail of folklorish beliefs to give it an air of authenticity as he loads it with what I can only describe as howlers.

 

The "asians" are the bad guys who take over America and as he goes up the west coast from Canada with noble churchy people, they find this magic truck left behind, see.   And it has a thingie that gives them all the water they need!  And by golly, it runs on used french fry oil! Which, even though they only have the stuff on their backs, they trade for all the way to Canada!  Because we all know that every city that survives the apocalypse will have barrels of the stuff on hand.

 

The story that just wants to make you bang your head is his rescue of one of the ten tribes.  Now, if anything, Spencer is literal.  So they are in the arctic living in sealed off caves underground, afraid of the world.  Now, this will really tug at your heart...they are "indians".  All with the dark hair, same eyes, dressed the same.  As all "indians" are. But Spencer was sent as the only one they would trust, because he has suffered so much, they would recognize him as a kindred spirit.  He belongs to the Fellowship of the Suffering Christ (don't remember exact name and I keep getting it mixed up with Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.)   Anyway, if you google it, it is a biblical term used mostly by pastors.

 

It's been awhile but I ended up filling up pages with the contradictions and absurdities. My favorite was his story of seeing his mother giving birth to him, she was kind of a loser, but he grants her redemption while all others who haven't made the grade at the time of Spencer's greatness are goners.  Anyway, I digress.  He is so speshul, that two nurses in that room with the other staff were....angels in stolen uniforms!  (Or maybe they have a uniform factory somewhere).   And nobody recognized them!  Yup, you can be a complete stranger in a hospital room and not one other staff member will notice.  Soooo cool. 

 

And while he is watching himself in one of his many illnesses, he hears the nurses yelling "we're losing him!  We're losing him!"  At which point one of my doctor friends burst out laughing and said nobody says that in a medical crisis, it doesn't give anyone the information they need to act upon. But back to the story....while he is chillin' above his body, he goes out and violates his wife's agency by possessing her, then he meanders around the hospital and enters a wood desk that is horribly suffering because somebody was fooling around on top of it.  And guess who it was!  Guess!  You will never see this coming!  They kick him out of the hospital right away because even though he was in critical condition, they can't diagnose it.  So no need to do anything else, even though he can hardly walk. So they do let him stagger to the doctor's business office.  Tough love for this hospital, no wheelchairs allowed. OK, wait for it...wait for it...what does he see when he walks in? Why, the suffering wood desk he possessed as he walked through the walls!  It was his doctor having an affair with the nurse!  On a desk.....we have all seen enough movies to know that people love to knock everything off and literally climb to the hardest most uncomfortable surface available while "code blue! code blue!  We are losing him!  We are losing him! echoes down the halls of Gray's Anatomy a SLC hospital.

 

This is just the start, folks.

 

I am laughing as I read this. Thanks, you have relieved me of the necessity of ploughing thru the rest of the book, which frankly I found unreadable.

[juliann]

One of my top ten fav contradictions:   He says he is color blind, then later vividly describes colors including red and green.

[bdouglas]

It is not nice to lampoon another, especially a brother in Christ (i.e., another member of the church). But lampoon and satire have their uses, and one of these uses is when you are faced with the preposterous and the ridiculous, and "Visions Of Glory" is full of both. I'm sure that in real life Spencer (whoever he really is) is a good and sincere man––or at least I think he probably is. I see him a case of what Nibley called "zeal without knowledge". Misguided zeal, and zeal that is not balanced with knowledge––despite his (Spencer) "three advanced degrees".

Edited June 21, 2014 by bdouglas

[Garden Girl]

I love the way Juliann describes the book... I do realize it was with tongue in cheek, but does anyone really think this is inspired or inspiring... apparently so from what I've read here.  What a shame if people really are buying into this nonsense. 

 

GG

[bdouglas]

I think you are probably right but the more I've considered religious experience, generally, I guess I lean towards believing that if a person finds encouragement within a book like this and doesn't cause them to lose sight of life's bigger picture, then all is well.  

 

I agree.

[Calm]

I had a friend who was given the book that started to become quite fearful because of the predictions of the horrors to come. She was grateful when I pointed out there were issues with the book and she did not have to accept its vision of the future as accurate.

I think a book that inspires fear and paranoia about the world is problematic in a fundamental way.

[mfbukowski]

I think you are probably right but the more I've considered religious experience, generally, I guess I lean towards believing that if a person finds encouragement within a book like this and doesn't cause them to lose sight of life's bigger picture, then all is well.  

 

Totally agree, Mr. Pragmatist. 

[Garden Girl]

 

I think you are probably right but the more I've considered religious experience, generally, I guess I lean towards believing that if a person finds encouragement within a book like this and doesn't cause them to lose sight of life's bigger picture, then all is well.  

 

Sorry Sethpayne...

I don't see people becoming caught up in this book as being an "all is well" type of situation.  It really gets them off track of real encouragement and knowledge, even wisdom.  I think it will skew them with a pseudo gospel and reality...

 

GG

[Garden Girl]

I had a friend who was given the book that started to become quite fearful because of the predictions of the horrors to come. She was grateful when I pointed out there were issues with the book and she did not have to accept its vision of the future as accurate.

I think a book that inspires fear and paranoia about the world is problematic in a fundamental way.

Gosh Cal... all I have to do is read the scriptures...

 

GG

[Calm]

I was thinking that myself in that there are some pretty horrendous things predicted there but that there may be a difference between one encouraging you to live in fear and mistrust of what is to come unless you luck out to be with someone with special powers and the other encouraging trust in the Lord.

[juliann]

OK, for accuracy, here are random quotes:

 

. . .as I walked through a desk I was stunned by what I felt.  It was longing for redemption.  I realized that recently a series of love letters had been written at this desk promoting an affair that ultimately would injure many people.  I knew the content of every letter and the true emotion and manipulation of the writer as well as the reaction of the reader.  I moved away, not wanting to remain in that stream of torrid details.  I went through the couch, and it likewise testified of the same affair and unrighteous events that had occurred here, some recently.  I could not find any place in that beautiful office that was not saddened or offended or crying for redemption. 

p. 35

 

"I turned around to see who had spoken my name.  I was astonished to
see Jesus Christ standing in the parking lot where the sidewalk
begins."  p 58.

 

"I have come to believe that what I was being shown
was the extremes of human experience--the dark and the pure."  p 56

 

[He used ancient Tahitians as the example of darkness in addition to making "Asians" villains.]

 

When Jason found out that I didn't have insurance, our merciful Savior moved upon him to fulfill his covenant in my behalf. pg 70  [he paid his medical expenses]

 

He [the angel]  said, "Only individuals like you, who have been willing to undergo similar pain and abuses as these people have, will they ever listen to and trust.  You must continue to drink of this bitter cup and not become bitter yourself.  This will give you the experience and knowledge you need so that when you are called to work with these people, they will trust you and recognize in you that you are a fellow sufferer and refugee from persecution.  These sufferings and your personal triumph over them will be written on your very soul and into the sinews of your body, and they will recognize it and trust you."

 

An example of the turgid prose (this is written by John Pontius according to "Spencer's" recollections, but Spencer is said to have verified everything written)

 

"Boy, I did not want to go back in my mortal body! I wanted to be in the company of Zion.  Even though I realized that I was seeing a future event, it was so real that I was living it--I was there and it was reality.  It was so real that it was hard to remember that my real reality, my true self, was lying in a bed in Utah, and my spirit was seeing future events." p 176.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2014 by juliann

[sethpayne]

Speaking to the book, when it is proselyted as part of the gospel....in church.  As I said, we have had two members bearing testimony of this book in F&T.  I think this book is of much more concern than OW given the way it is creeping into church through well meaning members.

 

bdouglas, I noticed the same problems.  When my husband was dying I read every near death book I could get my hands on.  I no longer have them but I also remember the book by a woman about the evil spirits hanging around bars waiting to possess drunks.  His description of them having writhing orgasms on the floor next to the guy at the computer in his underpants had a really uncomfortable, eh, you seem to be a little too into this vibe. I think Spencer has cribbed everything from books to movies to scripture, never with attribution as there are no footnotes, other than some references to scripture and Scrooge.  He uses every last days cliche, scripture,  and stays along the trail of folklorish beliefs to give it an air of authenticity as he loads it with what I can only describe as howlers.

 

The "asians" are the bad guys who take over America and as he goes up the west coast from Canada with noble churchy people, they find this magic truck left behind, see.   And it has a thingie that gives them all the water they need!  And by golly, it runs on used french fry oil! Which, even though they only have the stuff on their backs, they trade for all the way to Canada!  Because we all know that every city that survives the apocalypse will have barrels of the stuff on hand.

 

The story that just wants to make you bang your head is his rescue of one of the ten tribes.  Now, if anything, Spencer is literal.  So they are in the arctic living in sealed off caves underground, afraid of the world.  Now, this will really tug at your heart...they are "indians".  All with the dark hair, same eyes, dressed the same.  As all "indians" are. But Spencer was sent as the only one they would trust, because he has suffered so much, they would recognize him as a kindred spirit.  He belongs to the Fellowship of the Suffering Christ (don't remember exact name and I keep getting it mixed up with Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants.)   Anyway, if you google it, it is a biblical term used mostly by pastors.

 

It's been awhile but I ended up filling up pages with the contradictions and absurdities. My favorite was his story of seeing his mother giving birth to him, she was kind of a loser, but he grants her redemption while all others who haven't made the grade at the time of Spencer's greatness are goners.  Anyway, I digress.  He is so speshul, that two nurses in that room with the other staff were....angels in stolen uniforms!  (Or maybe they have a uniform factory somewhere).   And nobody recognized them!  Yup, you can be a complete stranger in a hospital room and not one other staff member will notice.  Soooo cool. 

 

And while he is watching himself in one of his many illnesses, he hears the nurses yelling "we're losing him!  We're losing him!"  At which point one of my doctor friends burst out laughing and said nobody says that in a medical crisis, it doesn't give anyone the information they need to act upon. But back to the story....while he is chillin' above his body, he goes out and violates his wife's agency by possessing her, then he meanders around the hospital and enters a wood desk that is horribly suffering because somebody was fooling around on top of it.  And guess who it was!  Guess!  You will never see this coming!  They kick him out of the hospital right away because even though he was in critical condition, they can't diagnose it.  So no need to do anything else, even though he can hardly walk. So they do let him stagger to the doctor's business office.  Tough love for this hospital, no wheelchairs allowed. OK, wait for it...wait for it...what does he see when he walks in? Why, the suffering wood desk he possessed as he walked through the walls!  It was his doctor having an affair with the nurse!  [On a desk.....we have all seen enough movies to know that people love to knock everything off and literally climb to the hardest most uncomfortable surface available while "code blue! code blue!  We are losing him!  We are losing him! echoes down the halls of Gray's Anatomy a SLC hospital.] see edit below.

 

This is just the start, folks.

 

Edit: In looking through my notes, the doctor was writing a letter to the woman on the desk, not doing the deed.  And they did put him in a wheelchair, after telling him that "this happens all the time."  I will stick to quotes instead of my memory henceforth.

 

Oh my.  Wow.

 

And you say this is the 2nd most popular LDS book of all time?  Good grief!

[sethpayne]

Sorry Sethpayne...

I don't see people becoming caught up in this book as being an "all is well" type of situation.  It really gets them off track of real encouragement and knowledge, even wisdom.  I think it will skew them with a pseudo gospel and reality...

 

GG

 

After reading Julie's description and quotes ... I'm inclined to agree with you in regard to this particular book.

 

As I said above, good grief!

[juliann]

This is my summation of the book when it was being discussed on another forum several months ago.  Snark warning!

 

The book is like reading a police blotter.   Out of boredom, I began
circling words that he was overusing.  Variations of joy/rejoice,
glow, beautiful, glory, power...maybe 20 some words make up the bulk
of his descriptions. "I/we/they were thrilled" sums up far too many
accounts.  And he does not tie up loose ends.  What he spent pages
leading up to in a great finale only disappear never to be mentioned
again...like the Fellowship of the Suffering of Christ.

 He never really explains why his suffering from health issues even
matters in the end.  He is attempting to build from one event to the
next,  but simply throws on adjectives.  He frequently says he was given more

powerful priesthood or understood it better, but he never explains that understanding. 

He provides so little detail that anyone can simply read themselves

into the hero role in what is essentially a blank slate. There is always a very black and white
division between the good  and the bad peeps so people don't have to
worry about being one of "them".

 With all the joyful rejoicing going on there is not one indication of
any enjoyment of life and never a spark of fun.  Families are never
discussed,children seem more of an encumbrance, 

his wife dies without any concern or even sorrow on his
part.  He mentions a son once but we never hear of him again.  When
people die, it's cool cause they are just doing the exact same stuff.  Yet
surviving is paramount to him.  When the young people are kidnapped by
"thugs" (he tells this story twice), they are found and healed and only
speak about their abuse as a blessing to them.  The end goal in his
tale seems to be enduring grim suffering until he runs out of steam in the

end and has people magically turning into "pure" people instantly to hurry the story.

He throws in scriptural turns of phrases, like running the good race,
bitter cup, throughout as if he is a living enactment of scripture.

 He is merely following well known scripture or tradition.  You can
envision a literal checklist that drives the story.  He just fills it
in... with some often comical stuff. When traditions collide, he
includes both.  He has to get the action in Missouri, but has other
unmentioned gathering places to cover his bases as the church moves

away from we are all marching to Missouri.  Pontius oddly
includes other unauthorized visions from old journals in an Appendix
to "support" Spencer making his sources pretty clear.

He badly, badly needs to read more sci-fi.   His attempts to describe
environment and technology were ridiculous and ham fisted.  No more
cold winter, the ice has melted in the arctic (so he can find the cave
dwellers), even though the sky is filled with ash, the lakes and
rivers are healing and becoming crystal clear.  There is never any
natural consequence to all these natural disasters beyond
"devastation" and land moving around.

Most disturbing is his removal of agency. We end up with no free will.
He never takes anything to its logical end.  It just is.  His idea of
utopia is that we are the Borg.  God/Jesus/HG inform us of our every
thought and action.  No more thinking required.  He has the ability to
invade any person's thoughts at will, he can even go back in time and
"fix" events in their life by the end of the book.  This would make a
horrifying sci-movie where people have to battle to regain control
over their own bodies and mind.  Since he has carefully placed himself
as only "ministering" and all others lesser beings in need of
ministering, the reader does not place themselves in these lesser beings situation.
Violating others seems like a good thing.

All in all, the lack of any sense of joy bogs this book down into
little more than an account of Calvinistic predetermination
punctuated by Jesus saves talk.

[sethpayne]

Totally agree, Mr. Pragmatist. 

 

 

Based on Julie's description I'm really curious to see how folks make this "work" for them within a Church context.  

 

First time I've heard about this particular book ... and here I was assuming it was like a lot of what Covenant or other "popular" Mormon presses have put out through the years.

[juliann]

 This is exceedingly disturbing. Spencer claims to be a therapist for children and now has "the spirit" rounding up paying clients for him.  

 

I could go into a room, or sit on the stand in sacrament meeting, and I knew who in the audience had gone through those abusive experiences.  This gift of discernment in knowing who I should serve and how to serve them has been the whole reason for any success I have seen in my profession.--

-----

 

Since that time, I have frequently gone to public events, such as a symphony or a civic activity, and while sitting there, the Spirit would say clearly about some stranger in the audience, "You are going to work with that child."  In a few weeks, or even a year, that person and often their whole family would enter into therapy with me.  It is a wonderful but painful gift of the Spirit.  p. 64

 

[bdouglas]

 

Spencer is "Visions":

 

I could go into a room, or sit on the stand in sacrament meeting, and I knew who in the audience had gone through those abusive experiences.  This gift of discernment in knowing who I should serve and how to serve them has been the whole reason for any success I have seen in my profession.--

 

-----

 

Since that time, I have frequently gone to public events, such as a symphony or a civic activity, and while sitting there, the Spirit would say clearly about some stranger in the audience, "You are going to work with that child."  In a few weeks, or even a year, that person and often their whole family would enter into therapy with me.  It is a wonderful but painful gift of the Spirit.  p. 64

 

This really is kind of disturbing. Maybe there are people like that (although I doubt it), or who have such a gift, but if so they are not out blabbing about it, and blabbing about it in a way so as to draw attention to themselves.

 

There are so many indicators that this book is a fraud, just a load of crap——not the least of which is the dreadful writing. But then why so many people in the church who believe it? I had an email a week ago from someone who asked me ecstatically, "Have you read 'Visions Of Glory'?" When I told her what I thought of it, I was met with silence. So what is it that is drawing people to this book?

Edited June 22, 2014 by bdouglas

[juliann]

 

Based on Julie's description I'm really curious to see how folks make this "work" for them within a Church context.  

 

First time I've heard about this particular book ... and here I was assuming it was like a lot of what Covenant or other "popular" Mormon presses have put out through the years.

Amazon lets you read some of it.

 

It is standard last days folklore mingled with scripture. So it is a draw to those who think we are the special folks reserved for the last days.  I think his emphasis on guardian angels telling you what to think is every moment of the day is comforting to some. (I certainly believe in divine intervention but not to this extent)  I tend to find it creepy because he has rooms filled with his strange caste system of angels.  He has evil spirits who are departed spirits and those who never made it to earth. It is a battle of who can make you do what they want....only it is always the good angels who retreat for some reason.

 

The top caste angels are those ancestors of LDS.   Sorry converts. But the top dog angels also have to cover everybody else so that is why blessings get slowed down.  

 

From some notes:

 

 He doesn't like competition from those less elevated than he,  so he backhands anyone who treads on his territory.  Wannabes are only tolerated as props to his greatness.  He is suffering in bed and has "the impression" there will be three visitors that day.  (He then bizarrely giggles over Scrooge also being told he would have three visitors and it didn't turn out so well.)  Part of the reason I think he is making stuff up, , is that these stories he tells could easily be identified by those involved,  if they existed,  and he demeans them. The first visitor isn't worth spending any time on because he read scripture to him.

His second visitor feels impressed to tell hlm what the angel already told him. 

 

"I didn't tell him that just a week ago an angel came into my bedroom and reminded me of these promises and healed my mind of my "I'm going to die" thinking.  I accepted his inspiration in bringing that message to me . . .I was not looking forward to a third visitor because the first two had exhausted me without leaving me with something I could truly use to upgrade my endurance or change my circumstances. I wasn't feeling critical or ungrateful for their kindness, just tired." p 77

 

The third visitor, is of course, an angel who shows up at 10:15  and is worthy of his attention and off we go on another out of body experience.  This time he has to set it up that he knows he isn't going to die so he goes with this...

 

"I felt connected to my body, as if a divine rubber band was connecting us.  I knew that this was the spiritual assurance that I would be back.  This was not death but another chance to learn and see the things of God." p 79

 

"He had been my guide on several other out-of-body experiences, so I recognized him even though I didn't know his name. "p 79

 

He always manages to find a way to withhold information.  He forgets, he wasn't shown, he was told not to relay it, he just leaves it out.  Even though he is repeatedly going through cities he can't come up with one identifying marker, car, sign, anything that would give him a clue of when this is all going to take place. He does say that he really tried to find a newspaper or something with a date on it as he saunters down a SLC city street he is familiar with. Even more curious, he never names any church leaders that he fraternizes with.  He only names dead ones that appear.  I think he did say at one point that he guessed it would be about 30 years.  Now mind you...he talks about an adult son.  That would make him pretty old to be marching from SLC to Canada to Missouri when his prophecies come true.  

 

Oh, and SLC floods.  When he finds shelter in the train station, they find storage rooms just full of stuff like overalls and blankets and pillows.  He later discovers that there is an "underground lake" below Point of the Mountain and the earthquake fault ran under it, so the mountain fell on the lake and made the

water squirt out of the ground throughout SLC.

 

This stuff just couldn't get anymore bogus as far as I am concerned.