65 replies to this topic

[Bernard Gui]

Tonight at a stake conference meeting, one of the speakers claimed when we take the sacrament
we renew all our covenants, including temple covenants. My understanding is that renew our baptismal
covenants. In the temple, there is no renewal part of the ceremony. There is no mention of the temple
or of "all the covenants" in the sacramental prayer. Any comments?

Bernard

[CASteinman]

This talk says that the sacrament renews baptism and looks forward to the Temple:

http://www.lds.org/g...anding?lang=eng

Which may support your view.  I wouldn't get too upset with the speaker though.  I have heard the same thing and maybe they were ignorantly parroting.

[Freedom]

When we are baptized, we covenant to prepare to go to the temple by being 'willing to take upon the name of Christ'. That is, we take upon the name of Christ in the temple and the sacrament reminds us that we are preparing to go to the temple. Nevertheless, I think the covenants are encompassed into one great whole so I do not have a problem with the suggestion that taking the sacrament renews all our covenants. I do not see the covenants as separate but rather as we take on a new covenant, it becomes part of a single new and everlasting covenant.

[Storm Rider]

The Sacrament has two purposes, imho, to remember the atoning sacrifice of our Savior and to again take upon ourselves the name of Christ. This taking upon ourselves the name of Christ for an individual who has made several covenants with him cannot be done without a renewal or recommitment to all our covenants with Christ and our Father.  This is an expanded view and it is not addressed in the Sacrament prayers, but I can understand how some would feel that each covenant would be renewed in both remembrance and commitment.

[Freedom]

Storm Rider, on 20 May 2012 - 12:24 AM, said:

The Sacrament has two purposes, imho, to remember the atoning sacrifice of our Savior and to again take upon ourselves the name of Christ.

A technical point. We do not take upon ourselves the name Christ but rather covenant that we are willing to do so at some future point.

[Storm Rider]

I don't see how you get some future point out of the prayer on the bread during the Sacrament:

"....that they are willing to take upon them the name of thy Son, and always remember him, and keep his commandments which he hath given them, that they may always have his Spirit to be with them. Amen"

Do you think God is only concerned about us being "willing" or that we have actually accepted the name of Christ upon ourselves and continue to be willing to do so?  If we do not take upon ourselves the name of Jesus Christ at baptism, when do we do so?

Edited by Storm Rider, 20 May 2012 - 04:48 AM.

[calmoriah]

Freedom, on 20 May 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

A technical point. We do not take upon ourselves the name Christ but rather covenant that we are willing to do so at some future point.

In the Primary lesson on baptism it says we take upon us his name:  http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/manuals/primary-manual-4/2011-11-15-lesson-12-alma-baptizes-at-the-waters-of-mormon-eng.pdf

See list of baptismal covenants:  "I covenant with the Lord to....be called his son or daughter ( take upon me the name of Christ"

Also:  "how can we show that we have taken Jesus Christ's name upon us and that we are standing as his witnesses."

Edited by calmoriah, 20 May 2012 - 02:14 AM.

[Robert F. Smith]

Bernard Gui, on 19 May 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Tonight at a stake conference meeting, one of the speakers claimed when we take the sacrament
we renew all our covenants, including temple covenants. My understanding is that renew our baptismal
covenants. In the temple, there is no renewal part of the ceremony. There is no mention of the temple
or of "all the covenants" in the sacramental prayer. Any comments?
Bernard

I think that you are right, Bernard.  But it does entail quite a lot on its own, including the reenactment of the slaughter of the Passover lambs and the marking of each Israelite door with the blood of those lambs, followed by the Jewish Passover meal immediately before the Exodus of Israel, and liberation from slavery in Egypt.  Just before he himself became the sacrificial Passover Lamb, Jesus transformed that ritual meal into a sacred ordinance memorializing him and his Atonement, and each time we perform it we renew our acceptance of that sacrificial act through repentance in hope that we will thereby be sanctified and be worthy to receive his Holy Spirit and to be his Saints.

Elder Quentin Cook spoke to this issue in his sermon “We Follow Jesus Christ,” at the April 2010, LDS Conference, published in Ensign, May 2010, pp. 83-86.  Among other things, he said (my emphasis at some points):

Quote

So much of what is essential to our eternal destiny occurred on Thursday and then Friday, the day Christ was crucified. The Last Supper, a Passover supper, the “established memorial of Israel’s deliverance from bondage,” was commenced Thursday evening. ¹ Ordinances and doctrines of great importance were initiated at the Last Supper. I will mention just three. First, the Savior introduced the ordinance of the sacrament. He took bread, broke it, prayed over it, and passed it to His disciples, saying, “This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.” ² In this manner He instituted the sacrament.

*       *        *      *
The Prophet Joseph Smith, speaking of these Easter events, said, “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” <sup>7

*     *      *     *</sup>

consider the Savior’s introduction of the sacrament. The Savior knew what was about to befall Him. His sacred, atoning mission, beginning with the War in Heaven in the premortal existence, was about to unfold that evening and the next day. Yet with the trials by His adversaries imminently before Him, there is not the slightest evidence He was preparing a defense against the untrue accusations. The Savior instead introduced the sacred ordinance of the sacrament to His disciples. As I contemplate that solemn occasion, my feelings are deeply touched. Sacrament meeting is the most sacred and holy of all the meetings in the Church. After His Resurrection, the Savior instituted the sacrament among the Nephites. ¹⁰ If we are to be His disciples and to be committed members of His Church, we must remember and reverence the sacrament. It allows each of us to express with broken hearts and contrite spirits our willingness to follow the Savior, to repent, and to become a Saint through the Atonement of Christ. ¹¹ The sacrament allows us to witness to God that we will remember His Son and keep His commandments as we renew our baptismal covenant. ¹²

*       *      *       *
The Savior’s promise of the Holy Ghost to the Apostles is of supreme importance in recognizing the preeminent role of the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead. The Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, the Comforter, who bears witness of the Father and the Son, reveals the truth of all things, and sanctifies those who have repented and been baptized.

Nuff said?

[CV75]

Bernard Gui, on 19 May 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Tonight at a stake conference meeting, one of the speakers claimed when we take the sacrament
we renew all our covenants, including temple covenants. My understanding is that renew our baptismal
covenants. In the temple, there is no renewal part of the ceremony. There is no mention of the temple
or of "all the covenants" in the sacramental prayer. Any comments?

Bernard

I think we can review them in our mind by way of review, attiude, reflection, commitment, etc. in giving a progession of meaning to the Sacrament Prayer.

[Log]

Bernard Gui, on 19 May 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

Tonight at a stake conference meeting, one of the speakers claimed when we take the sacrament
we renew all our covenants, including temple covenants. My understanding is that renew our baptismal
covenants.

Here, I believe I differ from most - I take the words at face value.

Quote

[T]hose who partake of [the bread]... witness [to God thereby] ... that they are willing to take upon them the name of [Christ], and always remember him and keep his commandments which he has given them....

Quote

[T]hose who drink of [the water]... witness [to God thereby]... that they do always remember [Christ]....

Therefore, I view the sacrament as not necessarily even related to the baptismal covenant (the covenant of obedience which may or may not precede baptism, and which may or may not involve verbiage similar to the sacramental prayers).  While I can see how some feel that it pertains to the temple covenants, I don't feel that way - the covenants of the temple are covenants, not commandments.

Edited by Log, 20 May 2012 - 07:33 AM.

[bcuzbcuz]

Bernard Gui, on 19 May 2012 - 11:48 PM, said:

.. one of the speakers claimed when we take the sacrament
we renew all our covenants, including temple covenants.

Uhhh, No!

[Deborah]

From Elder Holland: http://www.lds.org/g...-of-me?lang=eng

Quote

That is why every ordinance of the gospel focuses in one way or another on the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, and surely that is why this particular ordinance with all its symbolism and imagery comes to us more readily and more repeatedly than any other in our life. It comes in what has been called “the mostsacred, the most holy, of all the meetings of the Church” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 2:340).

Perhaps we do not always attach that kind of meaning to our weekly sacramental service. How “sacred” and how “holy” is it? Do we see it as our passover, remembrance of our safety and deliverance and redemption?

And from : http://www.lds.org/g...rament?lang=eng

Quote

The purpose of partaking of the sacrament is, of course, to renew the covenants we have made with the Lord.

Elder Delbert L. Stapley instructed us in this when he said about covenants:

“The gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ is a covenant between God and his people. … When baptized by an authorized servant of God, we covenant to do God’s will and to obey his commandments. … By partaking of the Sacrament we renew all covenants entered into with the Lord and pledge ourselves to take upon us the name of his Son, to always remember him and keep his commandments” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1965, 14).

[Freedom]

Storm Rider, on 20 May 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

I don't see how you get some future point out of the prayer on the bread during the Sacrament:

Both Oaks and Bednar have addressed this. In a sense, we take upon us the name of Christ when we are baptized, but this is the beginning of the process. We do  not fully accomplish this until we go to the temple. D&C 109 26 explains that it is in the temple that we take upon us His name. Bednar, in referencing Oaks, explains the following:

Quote

Elder Dallin H. Oaks has explained that in renewing our baptismal covenants by partaking of the emblems of the sacrament, “we do not witness that we take upon us the name of Jesus Christ. [Rather], we witness that we are willing to do so. (See D&C 20:77.) The fact that we only witness to our willingness suggests that something else must happen before we actually take that sacred name upon us in the [ultimate and] most important sense” (“Taking upon Us the Name of Jesus Christ,”Ensign, May 1985, 81). The baptismal covenant clearly contemplates a future event or events and looks forward to the temple.

Bednar April 2009
Oaks Apriln 1985

[Log]

Freedom, on 20 May 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

D&C 109 26 explains that it is in the temple that we take upon us His name.

I had not considered this.  It is true that therein we become anointed ones.

I shall investigate this aspect further.

Edited by Log, 20 May 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[Log]

How interesting.  In reading through the references in the scriptures, it seems baptism is not wherein we take upon us the name of Christ, but we take upon us the name of Christ when we enter into the covenant of obedience with God.  If this is done, and we obey the first commandment which is to be baptized, then we subsequently receive the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, wherein his name is written in our hearts.

Refs:
Mosiah 5:8-9
Mosiah 6:2
Moroni 6:3
Alma 34:38

I guess this means not all who are baptized take upon them the name of Christ - which is to say, not all who are baptized have entered, or do enter, into the covenant of obedience, and consequently do not receive the baptism of fire and the remission of sins which comes thereby.

Then we become literal anointed ones in the temple - I believe this is what is meant by the name of Christ being put on us in the context of D&C 109:26.

It never occurred to me to question these things.

Edited by Log, 20 May 2012 - 07:53 PM.

[Freedom]

It is important to note that when King Benjamin was giving his people a new name, the name of Christ, they were already members of the church. It is also important to note that they were gathered around the temple when this was occurring. I think stating that we take on the name of Christ at baptism is oversimplifying the doctrine. In Primary, we are also taught that baptism washes away our sins. This also quite false since baptism is only a symbol of the covenant. It is the Gift of the Holy Ghost that opens the door to our sins being washed away. So, when we are baptized, we are not made clean. We are started on the path to be made clean. Next we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost which can clean us. Nevertheless, it is not until we go to the temple to we fully receive the sacred washing and anointing that washes away our sins. So, baptism is the gateway not the destination. The temple is where all the promises of the new and everlasting covenant culminate. To fully enjoy the cleansing power of the Holy Ghost, we must to to the Mountain of the Lord.

[Log]

Freedom, on 20 May 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

Nevertheless, it is not until we go to the temple to we fully receive the sacred washing and anointing that washes away our sins. So, baptism is the gateway not the destination. The temple is where all the promises of the new and everlasting covenant culminate. To fully enjoy the cleansing power of the Holy Ghost, we must to to the Mountain of the Lord.

I must disagree, respectfully, with this.

Refs

The baptism by fire is sufficient to gain entrance into the Celestial Kingdom for them that endure faithfully to the end.  The rest is for exaltation.  You cannot be cleaner than clean.

Edited by Log, 20 May 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[Freedom]

Log, on 20 May 2012 - 10:01 PM, said:

I must disagree, respectfully, with this.

Refs

Indeed it is the Holy Ghost, but this cleansing begins with the bestowal at baptism but culminates in the temple. Else why is there a washing and anointing in the temple if the sins are already washed away?

[Log]

Freedom, on 20 May 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

Indeed it is the Holy Ghost, but this cleansing begins with the bestowal at baptism but culminates in the temple. Else why is there a washing and anointing in the temple if the sins are already washed away?

For higher degrees in the Celestial Kingdom.  Not required for entrance thereto.

In fact, just had a thought - there's your three degrees in the CK right there: those who have been baptized by fire, those who have been endowed, and those who have been sealed.

Edited by Log, 20 May 2012 - 10:16 PM.

[Freedom]

From  my perspective, one is either clean or not. I might be wrong, but I get the impression that the cleansing comes through participating in ordinances and taking covenants. Part of the repentance  process is an action on our part. If we do not take upon ourselves the covenants, and live these higher laws, we cannot be truly cleansed of our sins.