17 new temples! Yay!

[Calm]

4 hours ago, JVW said:

3) ... I forgot what my third theory was, I'll edit it back in if I remember

Perhaps a variation of 2, but common enough to merit its own place.  Even now the temple is one of the few places we can completely remove ourselves from the distraction of tech.  As tech gets more and more integrated into our lives, something will have to be pretty important to us for us to being willing to disconnect ourselves .  Hard for the Spirit to get through all the noise.  

Edited October 23, 2024 by Calm

[Dario_M]

10 hours ago, Teancum said:

Well I was referring to the temple building spree the church seems to be all in on.

There are other companies who also build huge buildings. So i don't understand why it is such a thing in with our LDS community? I mean...what's the dealio? 

[Peacefully]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Perhaps a variation of 2, but common enough to merit its own place.  Even now the temple is one of the few places we can completely remove ourselves from the distraction of tech.  As tech gets more and more integrated into our lives, something will have to be pretty important to us for us to being willing to disconnect ourselves .  Hard for the Spirit to get through all the noise.  

Maybe that is one of the reasons people are sad to see the live actors go because we are left with a technological representation that seems a bit less spiritual. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Maybe that is one of the reasons people are sad to see the live actors go because we are left with a technological representation that seems a bit less spiritual. 

For me it is the opposite. When there are live performers, I get full of anxiety that they are going to make a mistake even when no one cares. When it is tech, I can just relax and get absorbed in it with no distractions. 

But I also get how others feel differently. I have been to a number of plays over the year (at least one field trip a year from middle school to senior to see the SF ACT perform plus went to some in college and as an adult) and then there are live music performances I have attended. There is a different feel to them, a more communal sharing of experience, imo, than what occurs in a movie theater because the performers give directly to the audience and may be fed in turn by their reaction. Obviously the lack of applause means the exchange happens differently, but it is still a shared experience.  There are great benefits this way. 

But for me, I prefer the tech as in the temple I like to get more into my own space, the interesting stuff is going on more in my head than what I am watching, if that makes sense. 

[Peacefully]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

For me it is the opposite. When there are live performers, I get full of anxiety that they are going to make a mistake even when no one cares. When it is tech, I can just relax and get absorbed in it with no distractions. 

But I also get how others feel differently. I have been to a number of plays over the year (at least one field trip a year from middle school to senior to see the SF ACT perform plus went to some in college and as an adult) and then there are live music performances I have attended. There is a different feel to them, a more communal sharing of experience, imo, than what occurs in a movie theater because the performers give directly to the audience and may be fed in turn by their reaction. Obviously the lack of applause means the exchange happens differently, but it is still a shared experience.  There are great benefits this way. 

But for me, I prefer the tech as in the temple I like to get more into my own space, the interesting stuff is going on more in my head than what I am watching, if that makes sense. 

I’ve only seen the live presentation once. I’m used to the video, but I prefer all the non- tech parts of the temple. The video takes me out of the communing with God feeling a bit. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

I’ve only seen the live presentation once. I’m used to the video, but I prefer all the non- tech parts of the temple. The video takes me out of the communing with God feeling a bit. 

I am extrapolating from all other types of performances. I have never desired to make the extra effort to see a live session because I know how anxious I get (even ward choirs being off key or the organist getting something wrong makes me hurt, I am too much of a perfectionist myself and I always assume they will be bothered by it as much as I would).

I get the not feeling communing with God part. There are quite a few things that can do that to me.

[Kenngo1969]

On 10/6/2024 at 5:04 PM, Duncan said:

I don't know about others but I have two ancestor families from N. Ireland and we can't, for the life of us, get past the 1840's and 1830's on their lines. I'd be honored to do their temple work but if the documentation is non existent or whatever you are at a standstill, so I am hoping something breaks through genealogy wise for it to happen. I've paid money to PRONI, the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland and bupkus

I don't want to discourage you, Duncan.  Certainly, keep your eyes, your ears, your heart, and your mind open to whatever possibilities may ensue.  I believe there was a fire [bombing] at PRONI in 1922.  The news isn't all bad, however.  Good luck, and Godspeed.  

[JVW]

14 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Wha...?? 🤨 

Where do you get the idea that billions will be burned up?

What I said was mostly a joke based on a grain of truth. Let's do a quick thought experiment. I'm not making this official or anything, I'm a pretty casual kinda guy, but sense of humor and casualness doesn't come across well in a message board, anyways...

Here's a quick blurb from a Wikipedia article that I'll use for this experiment:

Quote

It took around 300,000 years of human prehistory and history for the human population to reach a billion and only 218 years more to reach 8 billion.

The human population has experienced continuous growth following the Great Famine of 1315–1317 and the end of the Black Death in 1350, when it was nearly 370,000,000.^[2] The highest global population growth rates, with increases of over 1.8% per year, occurred between 1955 and 1975, peaking at 2.1% between 1965 and 1970.^[3] The growth rate declined to 1.1% between 2015 and 2020 and is projected to decline further in the 21st century.^[4] The global population is still increasing, but there is significant uncertainty about its long-term trajectory due to changing fertility and mortality rates.^[5] The UN Department of Economics and Social Affairs projects between 9 and 10 billion people by 2050 and gives an 80% confidence interval of 10–12 billion by the end of the 21st century,^[1] with a growth rate by then of zero. Other demographers predict that the human population will begin to decline in the second half of the 21st century.^[6]

The total number of births globally is currently (2015–2020) 140 million/year, which is projected to peak during the period 2040–2045 at 141 million/year and then decline slowly to 126 million/year by 2100.^[7] The total number of deaths is currently 57 million/year and is projected to grow steadily to 121 million/year by 2100.^[8]

Regarding the (perhaps bad taste) joke about billions burning at the second coming. Let's say there's 10 billion alive when the second coming happens.

50% righteous = 5 Billion burned
90% righteous = 1 Billion
99% righteous = 100 Million

Regarding the sheer amount of temple work that'll need to be done for people currently living.

I'm defining a generation as 25 years. 140 million/year for the last 5 years, let's extend that to 1 generation. That's 3.5 Billion people. Some who are in the "celestial" camp will need temple work (celelstial only requires baptism and life is complicated). Everyone who is Terrestrial and Telestial will need temple work.

Number of people in one recent generation need temple work during the millennium

If 50% Celestial then 1.7ish Billion 
If 90% Celestial then 350 Million
If 99% Celestial then 35 Million

If we extrapolate this to multiple generations (with slightly diminishing numbers until 218 years ago, or 9 generations) the total numbers of people needing temple work are:

50% Celestial then 15.3 Billion
90% Celestial then 3.15 Billion
99% Celestial then 315 Million

Out of curiosity, what do you think the % of Terrestrial+ are that are currently alive today? I think the number of people that have temple stuff done is like .001% or less of people currently living? So I think I've been pretty generous in my dumb estimates.

[JVW]

9 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I’ve only seen the live presentation once. I’m used to the video, but I prefer all the non- tech parts of the temple. The video takes me out of the communing with God feeling a bit. 

Good news is the video is only like 20 minutes long now or something. It's become pretty brief.

[ZealouslyStriving]

56 minutes ago, JVW said:

What I said was mostly a joke based on a grain of truth. Let's do a quick thought experiment. I'm not making this official or anything, I'm a pretty casual kinda guy, but sense of humor and casualness doesn't come across well in a message board, anyways...

Here's a quick blurb from a Wikipedia article that I'll use for this experiment:

Regarding the (perhaps bad taste) joke about billions burning at the second coming. Let's say there's 10 billion alive when the second coming happens.

50% righteous = 5 Billion burned
90% righteous = 1 Billion
99% righteous = 100 Million

Regarding the sheer amount of temple work that'll need to be done for people currently living.

I'm defining a generation as 25 years. 140 million/year for the last 5 years, let's extend that to 1 generation. That's 3.5 Billion people. Some who are in the "celestial" camp will need temple work (celelstial only requires baptism and life is complicated). Everyone who is Terrestrial and Telestial will need temple work.

Number of people in one recent generation need temple work during the millennium

If 50% Celestial then 1.7ish Billion 
If 90% Celestial then 350 Million
If 99% Celestial then 35 Million

If we extrapolate this to multiple generations (with slightly diminishing numbers until 218 years ago, or 9 generations) the total numbers of people needing temple work are:

50% Celestial then 15.3 Billion
90% Celestial then 3.15 Billion
99% Celestial then 315 Million

Out of curiosity, what do you think the % of Terrestrial+ are that are currently alive today? I think the number of people that have temple stuff done is like .001% or less of people currently living? So I think I've been pretty generous in my dumb estimates.

Math is hard.

I believe that there are many Terrestrial+ people living who will enter into the Millennium to be taught and receive, personally, their ordinances. The Millennium will be the greatest time of missionary work ever, in addition to Temple work.

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

For me it is the opposite. When there are live performers, I get full of anxiety that they are going to make a mistake even when no one cares. When it is tech, I can just relax and get absorbed in it with no distractions. 

But I also get how others feel differently. I have been to a number of plays over the year (at least one field trip a year from middle school to senior to see the SF ACT perform plus went to some in college and as an adult) and then there are live music performances I have attended. There is a different feel to them, a more communal sharing of experience, imo, than what occurs in a movie theater because the performers give directly to the audience and may be fed in turn by their reaction. Obviously the lack of applause means the exchange happens differently, but it is still a shared experience.  There are great benefits this way. 

But for me, I prefer the tech as in the temple I like to get more into my own space, the interesting stuff is going on more in my head than what I am watching, if that makes sense. 

I've been to a couple of live endowments and I feel the same as you.  It's stressful because I'm on edge dreading having to deal with second hand embarrassment if something goes wonky (even though I know that absolutely no one will be upset about it).  And also, when the participants are really old, that makes it harder for me because it's so jarring to the story (which is about "young" people).

I have a friend who disliked the movies that had actual acting, because the bad acting (in her words) distracted her.  I preferred it to what we have now because the slideshow seems a little primary-esque to me and I miss the emotions and grandeur of the older films that had sweeping vistas and beautiful music.

Just goes to show that with everyone being so different, there's not much the church could do to appease everyone.  

[Kenngo1969]

I think God is really good at "playing the long game"—really good.  I think, in the end, that the only people who won't be exalted (as foreign as this concept might be to those who have faith) are those who do not want to be exalted. 

The only thing I have left to give to God that He did give, or that He has not or that He will not have given me, first is my will.   And the only thing that He, in His near-omnipotence, cannot take from me is my will.

That's it.  Other than that, for Him, anything else is possible—anything.

[JVW]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Math is hard.

I believe that there are many Terrestrial+ people living who will enter into the Millennium to be taught and receive, personally, their ordinances. The Millennium will be the greatest time of missionary work ever, in addition to Temple work.

Math may be hard, so I didn't do anything really complicated. It was just a demonstration of the vast numbers of people who will need temple work performed.

If one reads the Bible, it's very clear that a lot of wicked people are going to do a lot of crap before the second coming and will be destroyed at the second coming. The bible is clear that "all nations shall be gathered together in battle against Israel" Jeremiah 25:26; Joel 3:1; Zechariah 14:2; Revelation 16:14. Joel stated that the army would be the greatest army in the history of the world up to that point (Joel 2:2). Revelation 16:16: "And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them." Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is 200 Million for the size of the army, presumably this worldwide army will have popular support with a minority opposing it, as has been the case with any military campaign in human history (generally speaking). This article is pretty detailed and well sourced about the battle of Armageddon. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/enrichment-i?lang=eng#title1

There will be many who will survive into the Millenium who will convert to the church of the Lamb, and probably a large number who don't but still accepted Christ's sacrifice for their sins. There will be vastly more who died in the generations we are in now, and which have preceded us, who will need the work done, regardless of their level of righteousness.

Tying this back into the main point of the thread... Relative to the temple work that needs to be done during the Millenial reign of Christ, hardly any temple work is being done now. So even if they end up building a thousand temples by 2050 and only 5 people go to each one every day, those temples will burst at the seems during the Millenium and it doesn't hurt to plan in advance. That's the point I'm trying to make.

[JVW]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think God is really good at "playing the long game"—really good.  I think, in the end, that the only people who won't be exalted (as foreign as this concept might be to those who have faith) are those who do not want to be exalted. 

The only thing I have left to give to God that He did give, or that He has not or that He will not have given me, first is my will.   And the only thing that He, in His near-omnipotence, cannot take from me is my will.

That's it.  Other than that, for Him, anything else is possible—anything.

I'm not sure if this response has anything to do with my responses, but I wanted to comment on it either way.

Because God is Love I have to assume that the way that God responds to any situation people are given is the most loving way for Him to respond in that situation. Whether someone is wicked and destroyed during the second coming, or they are righteous and die by the age of 40 from brain cancer, or are enslaved as a child soldier in Africa, or whatever... the way God responds to each individual is the most loving way He can. We were all sent to Earth with a death sentence riddled with a variety of pain and suffering, in every way possible, in the interim between birth and death. So I assume that that was the most loving thing God could do, even if I don't fully understand it. I think considering the "long game" is really important when thinking about God, and it does help me to feel more humble to do that.

Based on patterns I see in nature, and in society, all signs point to not many people becoming exalted relative to the entire human population. How many sperm to make an egg? How many doors to knock to make a baptism? Few there be that find it. Etc. This doesn't mean I need to be hopeless or pessimistic or judgmental of others. I have no idea who is going where except that I know that everyone, except perdition, are going to receive a degree of glory from God. In other words, essentially everyone is going to heaven after final judgment.

As for how many will be exalted or will want to be exalted, the scriptures do state that we will be judged according to our desires and our works, so that checks out. Now I don't know if you believe that people have an unlimited period of time in which to repent. My mom's family believes that, and I've met others who also believe that. That one could be in the Telestial Kingdom for a trillion years, have a change of heart, and become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I've tried to find scriptural support for that and anytime I read the scriptures I don't get that impression at all. Section 76 is probably the "harshest" scripture when considering this topic. But again, almost everyone is going to heaven, so it's not like anyone is getting a bad deal here.

I do believe that God is much more merciful and loving than I can comprehend, and I'm too busy focusing on how to learn to love my enemies and do good to them who despitefully use me and persecute me to be bothered considering the state of anyone else's eternal soul. But I do also believe that "this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God".

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

That one could be in the Telestial Kingdom for a trillion years, have a change of heart, and become exalted in the Celestial Kingdom. I've tried to find scriptural support for that and anytime I read the scriptures I don't get that impression at all. Section 76 is probably the "harshest" scripture when considering this topic. But again, almost everyone is going to heaven, so it's not like anyone is getting a bad deal here.

I agree it’s hard to find specific support for this belief.  Mine is a variation of it. My reasoning is based off of scriptures that teach God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful.  Therefore imo he wouldn’t require us to make a decision on choosing his gifts or rejecting them without full awareness of what we are choosing or rejecting, meaning the consequences of eternal life or separation of some degree from God. 

And I don’t see that happening until after we die and the veil is lifted and likely a long time after that as well given that Joseph taught it would be a long while after death before we fully comprehended the principles of exaltation…and he was speaking to those who had already accepted the gospel enough to be baptized. 

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

... I do believe that God is much more merciful and loving than I can comprehend, and I'm too busy focusing on how to learn to love my enemies and do good to them who despitefully use me and persecute me to be bothered considering the state of anyone else's eternal soul. But I do also believe that "this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God".

As to your last sentence, yes, it is.  However, I think that idea is tempered by other teachings in the Restored Gospel.  For instance, Joseph Smith said:

Quote

“When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top; and so it is with the principles of the gospel—you must begin with the first, and go on until you learn all the principles of exaltation. But it will be a great while after you have passed through the veil before you will have learned them. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.”

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith 268.

 

[JVW]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

I agree it’s hard to find specific support for this belief.  Mine is a variation of it. My reasoning is based off of scriptures that teach God is infinitely just and infinitely merciful.  

From what I understand, the infinite justice is fulfilled at final judgment. I don't see evidence of God being just during our life on Earth, but I believe that people who have been wronged can have hope in God's justice prevailing at the great and last day.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Therefore imo he wouldn’t require us to make a decision on choosing his gifts or rejecting them without full awareness of what we are choosing or rejecting,

This remark made me chuckle a little bit considering a principle I recently discovered. I haven't given it a name but I'll refer to it as the "jumping off the cliff principle" and I think this pattern can apply to the concept of a finite window for repentance before final judgment. Consider the following scenarios and try applying the above quoted statement to them:

- The Fall of Adam and Eve into mortality.
- Any person choosing to be baptized and commit to Christ.
- Getting married.
- Having a child.
- Getting a job.

The above list is by no means exhaustive, and some items on the list are of much less consequence than others. But there is no way that Eve and Adam fully knew what they were getting themselves into when they took a bite. I had no idea what I was getting myself into when I got married or had a child. There are countless decisions that are made in life in which we have to use our best judgment and have no idea the depth or true gravity of the choices made. What matters isn't a full knowledge, what ultimately matters is the choice to commit and take that leap of faith. So it is with life, this life is the time for us to decide whether or not to commit to God, and those who don't know about God can choose to follow their inner divine urgings, or give into more base desires. We all can choose which wolf to feed regardless of how little knowledge of Jesus Christ we have.

I also want to add here my favorite verse of scripture ever. Alma 32:19 "And now, how much more cursed is he that knoweth the will of God and doeth it not, than he that only believeth, or only hath cause to believe, and falleth into transgression?" The way I read this is, "The less one knows, the less one will be condemned when they screw up." Faith exists in part because of God's great mercy. He wants to condemn as little as He possibly can according to the law, and the less we know, the less we will be condemned. So I really enjoy not knowing and I think God is very, very careful and deliberate about when, and how much, He reveals to any given person.

In any case, from my view, it seems like life is destined to be comprised of myriad decisions of which I have hardly enough knowledge to make.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

meaning the consequences of eternal life or separation of some degree from God.

Being in God's presence forever is being in God's presence for ever. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all God, so whether one is in Celestial highest degree, or lowest degree of Telestial, we will all be in God's presence without any degree of separation.

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

And I don’t see that happening until after we die and the veil is lifted and likely a long time after that as well given that Joseph taught it would be a long while after death before we fully comprehended the principles of exaltation…and he was speaking to those who had already accepted the gospel enough to be baptized. 

I am inclined to believe there is more leeway in giving time for repentance after death and before final judgment. But section 76 puts a damper on it. I also don't believe there is any way to interpret repentance after final judgment, but that's in thousands of years from now so there will be plenty of time to choose God in the interim.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, JVW said:

From what I understand, the infinite justice is fulfilled at final judgment. I don't see evidence of God being just during our life on Earth

Yep.

Quote

Being in God's presence forever is being in God's presence for ever. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all God, so whether one is in Celestial highest degree, or lowest degree of Telestial, we will all be in God's presence without any degree of separation.

On God’s end, I would agree.  I am iffy on this as far as his children are concerned.  I see the degrees as dependent on how much we desire to accept the Atonement and become one with Christ, which includes have his knowledge and understanding become our knowledge and understanding so that we will understand why he makes his choices for us and we would do the same where it matters, which is how I see our wills becoming one without the sacrifice of who we essentially are eternally as individuals.  I believe those who don’t choose to live celestially (I believe the kingdoms are based on awareness and oneness and not location) choose not to extend their understanding and awareness to the level of God for some reason and that would create a level,of separation because it prevents them from becoming fully one.

But I am fine with being wrong as this is more a reasoned position from my personal faith that I can trust God fully and what that implies to me.

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, JVW said:

t. But section 76 puts a damper on it.

The whole “endless” being a type of punishment and not duration even though God allowed for the duration understanding for the majority of his children opens up the possibility for me that we are misunderstanding the degrees in such a way that it encourages us to repent and endure, etc., in ways we might not if we understood it correctly.  It seems to me there are some contradictions in who goes where and why in latter day scripture.  I am okay with that as I think there are lots of contradictions in ancient scripture as well.

Quote

Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

Vs these Bible verses (AI collected them for me)

Quote

Revelation 20:10: "They will be tormented day and night forever and ever" 

Jude 6: "A prison of everlasting chains from which there is no hope of release" 

Matthew 13:49-50: "A furnace of conscious torment where the fire never goes out" 

Mark 9:47-48: "A place of excruciating misery where the worm does not die" 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, JVW said:

also don't believe there is any way to interpret repentance after final judgment

I agree.  We won’t be sinful once we are in the kingdoms because we have been purified by Christ.  
 

But that doesn’t mean we will choose to do not just good, but the best.  Iow, I don’t believe there will be sins of omission, but since choices of behaviour are rarely only one option to do good and one option to do bad, there will be a range of good behaviours where some of the best ones will require much self sacrifice for others.  I believe the level of willingness to self sacrifice is what determines how one we can become with God.

I can easily see willingness to self sacrifice grow over time as we experience the effect of it on ourselves and our loved ones, so someone could grow in desire there and thus grow in awareness and in being one with God…iow ‘move up’ a kingdom.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Calm

[manol]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

From what I understand, the infinite justice is fulfilled at final judgment. I don't see evidence of God being just during our life on Earth, but I believe that people who have been wronged can have hope in God's justice prevailing at the great and last day.

The word "justice" can mean different things to different people, so please don't take the following as me presuming to know what you mean: 

Imo right here and right now we can have a very different earth-life experience by forgiving everyone of everything.  Imo it is our privilege to do so, and even our calling to do so:  ".... of you it is required to forgive all men."  I don't think we get to take our collection of grievances with us into the Celestial Kingdom.  I think our grievances offer us nothing of value, whether they be "justified" or not.   On the other hand, I think extending forgiveness offers us a little bit of heaven on earth. 

Of course I could be wrong.

Edited October 23, 2024 by manol

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

This remark made me chuckle a little bit considering a principle I recently discovered. I haven't given it a name but I'll refer to it as the "jumping off the cliff principle" and I think this pattern can apply to the concept of a finite window for repentance before final judgment. Consider the following scenarios and try applying the above quoted statement to them:

I meant our final choice between right and wrong, assuming there is a final choice, of which imo all other choices, including the choices of others that we observe, are practices for…to experience what would happen when our choices aligned with God’s (not always happy in the moment).  That choice at that time may be expressed by words or by doing or maybe simply by who we have become in the end.

I believe in this life we had to accept that choices would not be made with full awareness because that was the only way to get enough distance from God’s influences that our not fully developed agency wouldn’t be overwhelmed by our sensing of God and awareness of the choices he wants us to make.  This is similar to how most of us need to leave home for a time to figure out the kind of decisions we make for ourselves and not be overly influenced by what our parents want for us.

The Final Judgment may be ours rather than the Father’s.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Calm

[Rain]

On 10/22/2024 at 12:59 PM, JVW said:

I think that's a very good question. My most special personal experiences with the divine have been outside of the temple. I haven't had a temple recommend for a few years because going tends to give me panic attacks, this was even the case when I did my first baptisms for the dead when I was 24 or 25.

Interesting.  Going gave my husband panic attacks for many years.  It was while his panic attacks were at their worst, but the temple was definitely a big trigger for them. 

On 10/22/2024 at 12:59 PM, JVW said:

I know there have been reports of many Muslims (I'm sure there have been those of other faiths as well) in the Middle East actually having dreams and seeing Christ in the dream telling them to go see a preacher or whatever. So while God (generally) can communicate with anyone outside of the temple, Christ (specifically) has reportedly been powerfully experienced outside of the temple, in and out of the church. Even in LDS church history Joseph saw the Father and the Son outside of the temple, and angels many times.

I personally do have a witness of God, but I don't have a witness that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I'm working to determine whether Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Maybe I need the temple in order to receive that kind of witness? But I feel like that discounts the experiences many people have had receiving mercy through repentance.

If I was to theorize why there is a shift away from the focus on ordinance work for the dead here is what I come up with:

I think the shift comes and goes.  I know when I was on my mission than 35 years ago there was a focus on the experiences the patron can have because I can specifically remember an RS lesson talking about it. Since then I don't remember it being unconnected to the person going.  That's been a struggle for me  because my first experience was so bad I had to focus on going for other people. 

On 10/22/2024 at 12:59 PM, JVW said:

1) A lot of ordinance work has already been done and the vast majority of ordinance work will be for the billions currently living who will be burned up when Christ comes again. (Yeehaw)

2) As the world gets more profane, unholy, defiled, and straight up Satanic maybe it will be harder to have true, pure, undeceived experiences with Christ outside of dedicated buildings for that purpose?

3) ... I forgot what my third theory was, I'll edit it back in if I remember.

 

[JVW]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

I agree.  We won’t be sinful once we are in the kingdoms because we have been purified by Christ.  
 

But that doesn’t mean we will choose to do not just good, but the best.  Iow, I don’t believe there will be sins of omission, but since choices of behaviour are rarely only one option to do good and one option to do bad, there will be a range of good behaviours where some of the best ones will require much self sacrifice for others.  I believe the level of willingness to self sacrifice is what determines how one we can become with God.

I can easily see willingness to self sacrifice grow over time as we experience the effect of it on ourselves and our loved ones, so someone could grow in desire there and thus grow in awareness and in being one with God…iow ‘move up’ a kingdom.

I think this is actually kind of a beautiful way to think about it. It's something I'll be mulling on for the forseeable future, but it did leave me with a few thoughts.
- Those going Telestial will not have been purified by Christ. They spend the Millenium in Hell suffering the penalties for their own sins b/c they refused to let Christ suffer on their behalf. afaik.

- If Jesus did other good behaviours other than what He did during His mortal ministry, would He have been regarded as an impure sacrifice and unable to complete the atonement? Is doing good to a slightly lesser degree regarded as sinful behavior? From Christ's preaching I get the impression that anything less than perfection requires repentance. We don't really have a ton of detail about life in the 3 degrees of glory, but I think by the time everyone ends up in a kingdom we will all be regarded as 'perfect' because if we weren't we couldn't dwell in God's presence? If those in Telestial are already perfect, how could they move up from where they are?

- I'm really curious about your answer to this question. Regarding Satan and his followers that were cast out. Do you think they had a perfect knowledge of the full ramifications of the decision they were making to have God become dead to them? Do you think that at some point in the future that the devil, or any of his followers, could eventually end up in the Celestial kingdom given enough time? They had infinitely more time than we do in mortality to make a choice, but I don't think anyone in pre-mortality really had any idea how truly intense our experience would be on Earth, or what it would fully entail. I can imagine many people who are born here, their spirit experiences life and thinks, "If I had really known what I was getting myself into I wouldn't have agreed to this, this sucks too much!"

- If there is ultimately a "final choice" on whether or not to dwell with the Father in the highest degree of Celestial glory, that is made with 100% full knowledge of every ramification, would there really be any individual who would choose to not dwell with the Father? Is it ever possible, even in Trillions of years, to fully 100% know every possible, infinite, implication of that eternal decision?

19 hours ago, Calm said:

I meant our final choice between right and wrong, assuming there is a final choice, of which imo all other choices, including the choices of others that we observe, are practices for…to experience what would happen when our choices aligned with God’s (not always happy in the moment).  That choice at that time may be expressed by words or by doing or maybe simply by who we have become in the end.

I believe in this life we had to accept that choices would not be made with full awareness because that was the only way to get enough distance from God’s influences that our not fully developed agency wouldn’t be overwhelmed by our sensing of God and awareness of the choices he wants us to make.  This is similar to how most of us need to leave home for a time to figure out the kind of decisions we make for ourselves and not be overly influenced by what our parents want for us.

The Final Judgment may be ours rather than the Father’s.

I generally agree with you in your sentiments about Final Judgment. We will choose based on our desires and works where we want to be, and the Father, out of infinite love, will place us in the place that will make us the happiest and most comfortable we can be according to our resurrected body (of which there are a variety of options I think?) and state of being.

In this life we make choices without full awareness, but I will reiterate what I asked above, do you believe we truly knew what we were getting ourselves into when we chose to follow Christ into mortality? I think that even Jesus may have underestimated what He truly committed to in the Great Council of heaven as evidenced by His personal preference expressed to have God remove the cup from Him in spite of His desire to submit fully to the will of God.

[JVW]

20 hours ago, manol said:

The word "justice" can mean different things to different people, so please don't take the following as me presuming to know what you mean: 

Imo right here and right now we can have a very different earth-life experience by forgiving everyone of everything.  Imo it is our privilege to do so, and even our calling to do so:  ".... of you it is required to forgive all men."  I don't think we get to take our collection of grievances with us into the Celestial Kingdom.  I think our grievances offer us nothing of value, whether they be "justified" or not.   On the other hand, I think extending forgiveness offers us a little bit of heaven on earth. 

Of course I could be wrong.

Loving our enemies and forgiving all men doesn't mean that they don't deserve fierce punishment for the heinous crimes they committed. In the case of the crime committed against Chris Williams when an 18 year old drunk driver T-boned him and killed his pregnant wife and one of his children, Chris forgave him, but the offender still went to jail and paid penalties. I don't mean justice as a vengeful dish served cold, just that we all will get what we deserve and that God is fair to everyone.