The Family Proclamation and the NHS

[Damien the Leper]

9 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Okay.   Not sure what you think this has to do with the topic, but I'm glad to hear your sister defended herself against and divorced someone who it sounds like had some things coming to him.  On a related note, I'm grateful for various self-defense-for-women oriented places that teach practical skills and techniques that smaller and weaker folks can use against bigger and stronger folks.   The girl who dumped me on my head at the KM studio didn't really need those classes, but they're relevant to probably 80% of the biological females on planet earth.

If you'd care to interact with either of the questions I asked, that'd be just dandy.   If not, have a good day.

The point is to never assume anything about the gender of the person. Her ex's disadvantage was that he was a male who considered himself, albeit arrogantly as any other male who consider themselves, to be "alpha". Essentially, his maleness was the disadvantage in this case. 

[Damien the Leper]

11 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I am extremely aware of Church history, from LDS, RLDS, and Fundamentalist, Church of Christ (Temple Lot), and Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) perspectives.

Notice I offered no opinions on the policy, I just simply pointed out the facts:

* Ordinances of Salvation were never denied.

* Ordinances of Exaltation were delayed.

* It was always taught- even by those who put the ban in places- that the ban would be lifted someday.

* Exaltation is available to the faithful, even if they have been denied the ordinances (right or wrongly).

🤙

Please provide a reference where BY explicitly stated this without using unclear language. This is a sincere CFR for a direct quote with source.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

To me, this seems at odds with @smac97's declaration that it is very important that we get these sorts of things right and not be influenced by societal trends. If God can simply redeem people in spite of any scenario where the church is influenced by societal trends, then does it really matter if the church is influenced more by social trends than eternal truth?

Yes, given the influences can have immediate harm (all mortality effects) and longterm (post death) as well because it may take some time and effort to untangle wrong beliefs from one’s understanding of God’s truth.  While all wounds will be healed, God has expressed some pretty harsh comments about those who harm innocents, though of course intent will play a big part of it.

And he wants us to have joy, to progress, to seek him and while it may not be massively important because of the Atonement, the sufferings of his mortal children still matter just as their child’s tears of failure and frustration of their child’s struggles to achieve matter to a parent who can see the future success as a top student or a great athelete or musician even as they watch the first steps towards those ultimate goals.

Edited May 9, 2024 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unfortunately better skill or whatever benefitted your sister is not always enough.  It is not unknown for female experts in self defense and the martial arts to be unable to successfully defend themselves against sexual assaults, for example.  In the vast majority of cases of 145 lb women going up against 270 lb men outside of sports, it would not be the man ending up as the loser.  In sports, even with women choosing whether to participate or not, I would be surprised if there was not an advantage to being biologically male where many biological men won in bouts with biological women even if less skill (physics being less arbitrary in its application of its rules than humans), however I have never research sports events that have women pitted against men.

My sister does not have self-defense experience. What we have as grandchildren is growing up with a grandfather, who was born in a traditional southwest cowboy home with all the gender roles who taught us to combat false institutions such as gender roles or heteronormativity or anything of the like. We were taught to show those who think of us as lesser our absolute ire with violence as a last resort. 

[Damien the Leper]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

It is not whitewashing history to accurately present beliefs held in the past even if those beliefs were wrong (I am assuming your comment is based on your religious beliefs and is not an interpretation of LDS beliefs, which require an ordination in the Restored Church to hold an office in the Priesthood).

Apologies. I'm allowing unqualified righteous indignation to influence an emotional tactic to elicit an equally emotional response (use of bigot) rather than to rationally discuss the problematic nature of the ban in the first place.

Edited May 9, 2024 by Damien the Leper

[ZealouslyStriving]

11 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Please provide a reference where BY explicitly stated this without using unclear language. This is a sincere CFR for a direct quote with source.

I'll do my best... 

"Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed." 

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#099027:t186d1&negro:st&&1830&2024&j&n&30@0$negro

 

"Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to he God. He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessings of life; if they chose death, they must abide the penalty. This is a law which has always existed from all eternity, and will continue to exist throughout all the eternities to come. Every intelligent being must have the power of choice, and God brings forth the results of the acts of his creatures to promote his kingdom and subserve his purposes in the salvation and exaltation of his children. If the Lord could have his own way, he would have all the human family to enter into his church and kingdom, receive the Holy Priesthood and come into the celestial kingdom of our Father and God, by the power of their own choice."

https://bhroberts.org/records/0JitvC-WeMsAb/brigham_explains_priesthood_ban_doctrine

🤙

 

 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain,

I could have sworn there was one specifying the children of Abel.  I found one possible reference to JFS referencing BY in Way to Perfection, but I don’t have that book anymore.  Almost everything else is taking me to Elijah Abel.

Edited May 9, 2024 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Exaltation is available to the faithful, even if they have been denied the ordinances (right or wrongly).

Makes the idea that the ordinances actually offer any advantages in this life seem like nice fiction. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Makes the idea that the ordinances actually offer any advantages in this life seem like nice fiction. 

Saying that God can make up differences in the future does not imply that there are no differences now.

Exalation itself is in the future.  There are, imo, other, immediate benefits to having ordinances, including blessings received because ordinances can be expressions of love of God and commitment to the service of him.

Graduating from school is in the far future for a grade oner, but they still get immediate benefits from being willing to go to school, taking summer classes, extracurricular courses like music lessons.

The process itself has benefits

Edited May 9, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'll do my best... 

"Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed." 

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#099027:t186d1&negro:st&&1830&2024&j&n&30@0$negro

 

"Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to he God. He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessings of life; if they chose death, they must abide the penalty. This is a law which has always existed from all eternity, and will continue to exist throughout all the eternities to come. Every intelligent being must have the power of choice, and God brings forth the results of the acts of his creatures to promote his kingdom and subserve his purposes in the salvation and exaltation of his children. If the Lord could have his own way, he would have all the human family to enter into his church and kingdom, receive the Holy Priesthood and come into the celestial kingdom of our Father and God, by the power of their own choice."

https://bhroberts.org/records/0JitvC-WeMsAb/brigham_explains_priesthood_ban_doctrine

🤙

 

 

I need to check this one out to see if it’s different than the above….but not now.

This was from a friend I appealed to but the link wouldn’t display for me for some reason:

Quote

It's from the February 5, 1852 speech of Brigham Young to the state 
legislature: 
https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/e6a939a0-3402-4771-814d-4eaf2547e613/0/0?lang=eng.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Saying that God can make up differences in the future does not imply that there are no differences now.

Exalation itself is in the future.  There are, imo, other, immediate benefits to having ordinances, including blessings received because ordinances can be expressions of love of God and commitment to the service of him.

Graduating from school is in the far future for a grade oner, but they still get immediate benefits from being willing to go to school, taking summer classes, extracurricular courses like music lessons.

The process itself has benefits

More responding to the overall tone of the post which was had “move along, no harm done, nothing to see here vibes” which I would guess you disagree with. 

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

More responding to the overall tone of the post which was had “move along, no harm done, nothing to see here vibes” which I would guess you disagree with. 

In terms of the harm the Priesthood Ban caused in mortality for many, if Zealous doesn’t see harm was done to many and is still being done simply because ultimately balance would be restored, yes, I would vigorously disagree with him.  If he is referring to it making a difference or rather no difference only to our ultimate destination, I would agree.

[MrShorty]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Those who are denied ordinances who would've otherwise received them will suffer no ill-effects to their exaltation. Those who refuse or neglect ordinances have no such promise.

I find it interesting how we end up focusing on the "checklist" of ordinances, sacraments, and rituals. I'm inclined to agree that we believe that everyone will get a fair chance to receive all of the necessary ordinances, no matter what reason they did not receive those ordinances.

At the risk of further misunderstanding/misinterpreting what you are saying, are these ordinances more important than learning and practicing actual moral truth? What I see in this "defense" of the priesthood and temple ban is that actual truth doesn't really matter, as long as everyone gets to check all of the right ordinance/sacrament checkboxes. It didn't matter that church members believed some races were superior/inferior to others, as long as everyone will eventually be able to check off the ordinance boxes.

I guess I'm just not sure I believe that we can dismiss the errors related to the priesthood and temple ban because we believe that no one gets denied ordinances in the end. I think truth matters, and our ability to discern moral truth is an important skill that God wants us to develop, and we failed quite spectacularly at discerning truth from error in matters of race. That, IMO, is not something that is easily dismissed.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

I need to check this one out to see if it’s different than the above….but not now.

This was from a friend I appealed to but the link wouldn’t display for me for some reason:

 

I can access this on my husband’s computer. Youngest in the house, I guess. 
 

It reads:

Quote

When the mark was put upon Cain [Abel[‘s] seed?] his children were in all probability young. the Lord told Cain he should not receive the blessings of priesthood until the last of posterity of Abel had received the priesthood until the redemption of earth

This is from the shorthand, transcribed by LaJean Carruth, thus no punctuation, etc

Edited May 10, 2024 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

48 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

What I see in this "defense" of the priesthood and temple ban

Where did I defend the ban? In a follow up post I stated clearly that I had given no opinion on the ban.

Again, I have merely corrected the false idea that Saving ordinances were not made available.

[ZealouslyStriving]

FWIW... I am generally disposed the go with the Prophet Joseph Smith in matters of doctrine. 

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'll do my best... 

"Treat the slaves kindly and let them live, for Ham must be the servant of servants until the curse is removed." 

https://scriptures.byu.edu/#099027:t186d1&negro:st&&1830&2024&j&n&30@0$negro

 

"Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God. They will go down to death. And when all the rest of the children have received their blessings in the Holy Priesthood, then that curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will then come up and possess the priesthood, and receive all the blessings which we now are entitled to. The volition of the creature is free; this is a law of their existence, and the Lord cannot violate his own law; were he to do that, he would cease to he God. He has placed life and death before his children, and it is for them to choose. If they choose life, they receive the blessings of life; if they chose death, they must abide the penalty. This is a law which has always existed from all eternity, and will continue to exist throughout all the eternities to come. Every intelligent being must have the power of choice, and God brings forth the results of the acts of his creatures to promote his kingdom and subserve his purposes in the salvation and exaltation of his children. If the Lord could have his own way, he would have all the human family to enter into his church and kingdom, receive the Holy Priesthood and come into the celestial kingdom of our Father and God, by the power of their own choice."

https://bhroberts.org/records/0JitvC-WeMsAb/brigham_explains_priesthood_ban_doctrine

🤙

 

 

Considering the Church has declared much of that to be total garbage it doesn’t seem well-advised to point to other parts as authoritative or inspired.

Not saying you are doing that.

Edited May 10, 2024 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Makes the idea that the ordinances actually offer any advantages in this life seem like nice fiction. 

Yep, on one hand the construction of temples and getting the saints access to these ordinances is often described as vital to their spiritual survival in mortality. And also it is not important whether you get them at all in this life since God and the Milenium will fix it all up so everything is fine so don’t worry about it.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Yep, on one hand the construction of temples and getting the saints access to these ordinances is often described as vital to their spiritual survival in mortality. And also it is not important whether you get them at all in this life since God and the Milenium will fix it all up so everything is fine so don’t worry about it.

The vast majority of humans never had the opportunity to go to college.  Do you see college as not worth it, not important in this life because of that?  Would you tell someone not to bother?

Edited May 10, 2024 by Calm

[MiserereNobis]

14 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

“Why are so many of the inhabitants of the earth cursed with a sin of blackness? It comes in consequence of their fathers rejecting the power of the Holy Priesthood, and the law of God.”

Racist original sin (which is odd since LDS teachings specifically repudiate original sin)

[ZealouslyStriving]

5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Considering the Church has declared much of that to be total garbage it doesn’t seem well-advised to point to other parts as authoritative or inspired.

Not saying you are doing that.

The point being addressed is that... Whether the Priesthood ban was right or wrong, it was taught by those who initiated the ban that the ban would someday be lifted, which supports my assertion that ordinances of Exaltation were delayed, not denied.

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yep, on one hand the construction of temples and getting the saints access to these ordinances is often described as vital to their spiritual survival in mortality. And also it is not important whether you get them at all in this life since God and the Milenium will fix it all up so everything is fine so don’t worry about it.

Misrepresentation of what I'm saying and what the Church teaches.

If you have the opportunity to receive saving and exalting ordinances and you don't take advantage of that opportunity, everything will most definitely not be "fine" and you do need to "worry".

Edited May 10, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Racist original sin (which is odd since LDS teachings specifically repudiate original sin)

Not really. It's not a whole lot different than the Moabite and Ammonite situation- which ironically may also be a late man-made Deuteronomist invention to keep post-exilic Jews "pure". At least Brigham didn't ban blacks from baptism and membership in the Church. Anyways:

"3 An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the Lord for ever:

4 Because they met you not with bread and with water in the way, when ye came forth out of Egypt; and because they hired against thee Balaam the son of Beor of Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse thee." (Deuteronomy 23)

"1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;

2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing." (Nehemiah 13)

Edited May 10, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Nofear]

16 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Makes the idea that the ordinances actually offer any advantages in this life seem like nice fiction. 

Oh, there is definitely advantage to making and keeping covenants now in our mortal phase. As well as education.
"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." D&C 50:18-19

The philosophical struggle was why some should have more of those advantages than others. The early and not-so-early brethren came up with some speculations to offer some explanation but in the end they failed. We still don't have a good answer. We still see through a thick glass darkly. While it is ok, potentially even good, to wonder about such things, it is far more important to realize the message of the parable of talents that where much is given much is required.

 

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Not really.

Do you mind explaining? Is it "not really" racist original sin or is it "not really" that LDS teaching repudiate original sin?