The Family Proclamation and the NHS

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Please don't put words in my mouth.  I said nothing about "taking over".   I said hundreds and hundreds of boys and men invading women's sports and wiping the walls with the women.  Here's a list of almost 1000 different sporting competitions where biological males displaced women and girls.   Most of them have links to news articles.  From an athletically competitive standpoint, some of them are invalid like poker or dance or billiards or darts, but the vast majority should fit your demand. 

https://www.shewon.org/

Chronicling the horror of the biological male’s inherent advantages in such sports as *checks notes* snooker, billiards, golf, disc golf, and darts???? What?

A lot of these are just listing everyone who went down one place. These aren’t the number of individual transgender people competing. Amazing how this is concentrated in so few sports. Why do I suspect there are one or two bikers and one or two disc golf players causing half this list to exist. So yeah, not buying the “hundreds” thing.

Also love the non-athletic competitions. Transgender people are stealing awards in business and competitive eating. Uh-huh. Oh, and the top earnings winner on Jeopardy. Definitely a big advantage in being born male in that area. 

What a deceptive website. I would love to see someone fact check it in general. Oh wow, I started clicking on their links for data sources. Some of the references for the data are to literal Twitter posts. LOL

And the cutesy bit about no records found about transgender men succeeding in sports is a nice touch. Guess they didn’t look at all or something. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/athletes-assigned-female-transitioned-mens-sports/

This is such a sad website.

 

Meanwhile while the legislators scream about transgender ‘cheating’ and pass legislation to make sure High School kids are ostracized, humiliated, and called out by crazies searching for the hidden transgender menace actual real funding to women’s sports continues to be subpar all over the nation.

Great job everyone! System working as intended. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[The Nehor]

8 hours ago, T-Shirt said:

Oh , the irony.

By the way your lunch money protection “donation” is late again.

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I am thinking this isn’t what you intended to say….

It was intended to be a weird joke to confuse everyone with me being intentionally wrong to illustrate the point but it was probably too obtuse and a bad idea. I fixed it.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It was intended to be a weird joke to confuse everyone with me being intentionally wrong to illustrate the point but it was probably too obtuse and a bad idea. I fixed it.

It would not be the first joke that whooshed over my head.

[Calm]

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

lot of these are just listing everyone who went down one place. These aren’t the number of individual transgender people competing.

Good to know.

I noticed they also listed women who withdrew in protest.  I don’t think it’s accurate to say those cases are displaced by a biological male.

Seems to me the crucial number is number of competitions, 464.  That links to one individual who is biological male choosing to register for that competition as a woman.  Given in a number of the sports male physiology wouldn’t provide an advantage, one might drop that number down to 400 relevant competitions….but if it is about opportunity to participate in higher levels or winning medals in women’s sports, advantage doesn’t seem relevant and it is more of simply a biological male taking a space that had been previously reserved for biological females….one could view it as similar to men started competing for jobs as coaches of female teams once these teams started getting decent money for their coaching jobs and now there are less women in these coaching jobs even if there is no physical advantage to being a coach for a biological male (only a social one with the perception men were better coaches, better chances to get experience coaching, etc).

Edited May 9, 2024 by Calm

[Damien the Leper]

On 5/3/2024 at 8:04 PM, smac97 said:

And you and I did not "deny people salvific ordinances and covenants.

Neither did the Lord. Rogue bigots and apostates did. 

[Damien the Leper]

On 5/7/2024 at 5:04 AM, MiserereNobis said:

They might have been right. After all, we ended up with @mfbukowski 😜

Don't worry, @mfbukowski will return to Rome and then hold hands with Constantinople. 😘

[ZealouslyStriving]

50 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Neither did the Lord. Rogue bigots and apostates did. 

Well, actually, no one did...

The Saving ordinances- baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost, sacrament- were never denied to anyone.

The ordinances of Exaltation were postponed for some for awhile- but that postponement had absolutely no bearing on their actual Exaltation.

Just to clear things up.

🤙

[Damien the Leper]

On 5/7/2024 at 3:38 PM, LoudmouthMormon said:

It's important to love thy neighbor.  Trans folks have higher rates of mental illness, suicide attempts, suicide completions.  They're more likely to experience violence at the hands of another.  It's important to be aware, mindful, and helpful about these things.  I believe I'll kneel at the feet of my Master and give an accounting of how I treated the lost and the least.  

But when the "odd eccentric extreme" leads to hundreds and hundreds of boys and men invading women's sports and wiping the walls with the women, well, it's important to love thy neighbor.  And I've spent 40 years hearing about the importance of women's spaces, and historical injustices and oppression at the hands of men.  It's important to be aware, mindful, and helpful about these things.  

Right?

 

The men invading women's sports is the typical argument. I have seen female to male transgender persons compete in male sports. I've also seen many of said individuals defeat men in their sports of choice. Two of these sports being swimming and MMA. But conservatives don't want to talk about the trans females who invade men's sports. The word invade being the scare the scare tactic verb. By deliberately not talking about them allows conservatives to delusionally believe that their perspective and argument are correct to the detriment of the conservative.

[Damien the Leper]

On 5/7/2024 at 8:42 AM, smac97 said:

Well, no.  I have repeatedly acknowledged that sex and gender were previously essentially synonymous, and have in recent years been differentiated in some contexts.  I think some of this ambiguity and equivocation has been deliberate.

The "sex/gender" distinction is very new.  As in within the lifetime of some people on this board.  See here:

See also here:

Lia Thomas is a biological male participating against biological women in competitive swimming by claiming to be a woman.  That sure seems like a denial of biological sex.

Some clearly do.  Hence the "sex is a spectrum," "biological sex is a social construct," "men and menstruate," "women can have penises," "trans women are women" and corollary diktats.

See also here:

And here:

And here:

d

I don't think people with mental disorders should be ridiculed.

It is the content that I find noteworthy.

I could not find the original on Tiktok video.

Therian/Furries videos are proliferating.  Some of it this is, I think, just a social trend.  But some of it seems to be pushing people - particularly children - into thinking that they really are animals and such.

If this young woman sincerely believes she is a red-tailed hawk living in a human body (as opposed to someone just saying something absurd to garner attention and clicks), then she may need help.

She is saying she is a Red-tailed Hawk.  She is not.

Similarly, William Thomas a/k/a Lia Thomas is claiming to be a woman.  He is not.  I say this not to deprecate him, but to disagree with him.

From Wikipedia:

I am generally indifferent to people choosing to identify as things they are not.  I think things become more problematic when society is expected - often via coercive fiats - to affirm and ratify these identities.

And yet many of them demand to be treated according to their "identity" rather than their biology.  Hence we see a biological male, Lia Thomas, participating against biological females.

"If a biological male thinks he is a woman, let him compete in women's sports, use women's bathrooms, be housed in women's prisons, and so on."  That's the reasoning we are seeing.  I think such accommodations become difficult pretty quickly.  Further, there is no limiting principle.  If a biological male can "identify" as a woman, then can Rachel Dolezal and Jessica Krug "identify" as "Black?"  Can "Stefoknee Wolscht," a biological male in his 50s, call himself a perpetual six-year-old girl?  Can a 5'9" white guy "identify" as a six-foot-tall Chinese woman?  Can Eva Tiamat Medusa "identify" as a dragon?  Can Naia Ōkami "identify" as a wolf?  

If not, why not?  

Can I "identify" myself as someone or something I am not?  Can I use the force of law to coerce other people into capitulating to that identity? 

I am not.  I think there are some who are doing this stuff for fun, or to be provocative, etc.  There are others, however, who truly believe that they are something that they are not.

Why, then, do sports organizations allow biological males to participate in women's sports?

Why are we being told that "trans women are women?"

Why are people refusing to answer "What is a woman?"

Why are otherwise intelligent people saying facially absurd things like "A woman is anybody who identifies as a woman," "Trans women are women," "Men can menstruate," "Women can have penises," and so on?

Words are intended to convey commonly-understood meanings.  That is their raison d'être.  And yet we regularly see people saying that "woman" can mean, well, pretty much anything at all.

This is equivocation.  It is Orwellianism writ large.  It is about power and control.  Lewis Carroll touched on this in his Through the Looking Glass:

Citing the foregoing, Bruce Corley made the following observation:

This is what I think people like you are doing. 

You are playing "language games" when you "stretch {words} beyond recognition," such that a word as as basic and universal as "woman" has - by your measure - an infinitely malleable and elastic definition.  

Alice was quite right: "The question is whether you can make words mean so many different things."

But Humpty Dumpty was likewise correct when he declared that his purpose in warping and twisting words is designed to exert power and control.  "The question is which is to be master -- that's all."

Thanks,

-Smac

PragerU isn't some objective, well-reasoned, articulate, or well-meaning institution. It is of the same breed of vipers found in the Heritage Foundation, Breitbart, etc. 

[LoudmouthMormon]

27 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

I have seen female to male transgender persons compete in male sports. I've also seen many of said individuals defeat men in their sports of choice. Two of these sports being swimming and MMA. 

Me too, and me too (not many, but a couple).  I also once got my butt thoroughly and honorably kicked at a Krav Maga studio by a girl.  And probably most fit women can wipe the walls with me in any running sport.  Every other strength-related competition with a female in my 5 decades on planet earth have all resulted with me having a clear advantage due to my physical advantages 'cuz I'm a dude.

The science behind biological differences between men & woman isn't exactly new, isn't exactly unstudied, and isn't exactly controversial.  If you understand bell curves, you're 80% of the way there.  There are plenty of folks who haven't really thought about it or studied it, and that's fine.   Again, for those new to the notion, here's a not-too-horrible starting place:  A website that compares 2016 High School Boys NBNO Finalists and 2016 Olympic Women's Finalists.  

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

 

27 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

But conservatives don't want to talk about the trans females who invade men's sports. The word invade being the scare the scare tactic verb. By deliberately not talking about them allows conservatives to delusionally believe that their perspective and argument are correct to the detriment of the conservative.

*shrug* You trying to get the thread locked by bringing up politics, because that's the best you got?   If not, I'd happily welcome a discussion about biological women competing against men in men's sports.   Do you understand bell curves?  Ignoring the axis labels, do you understand what principle this image conveys?

Edited May 9, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Damien the Leper]

39 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well, actually, no one did...

The Saving ordinances- baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost, sacrament- were never denied to anyone.

The ordinances of Exaltation were postponed for some for awhile- but that postponement had absolutely no bearing on their actual Exaltation.

Just to clear things up.

🤙

Postponed? Nice childish whitewashing of history, bruh. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, Damien the Leper said:

Postponed? Nice childish whitewashing of history, bruh. 

Since they have since received the ordinances of Exaltation- which was always declared the would one day receive- what would you call it?

Not whitewashing... Just clarifying.

🤙

[T-Shirt]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

By the way your lunch money protection “donation” is late again.

Oh, crap! I'll get it in the mail right away. Or, do you take Venmo? Just don't send Cousin Guido again.

Edited May 9, 2024 by T-Shirt

[Damien the Leper]

8 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Me too, and me too (not many, but a couple).  I also once got my butt thoroughly and honorably kicked at a Krav Maga studio by a girl.  Every other physical competition with a female in my 5 decades on planet earth have all resulted with me having a clear advantage due to my physical advantages 'cuz I'm a dude.

The science behind biological differences between men & woman isn't exactly new, isn't exactly unstudied, and isn't exactly controversial.  If you understand bell curves, you're 80% of the way there.  There are plenty of folks who haven't really thought about it or studied it, and that's fine.   Again, for those new to the notion, here's a not-too-horrible starting place:  A website that compares 2016 High School Boys NBNO Finalists and 2016 Olympic Women's Finalists.  

https://boysvswomen.com/#/

 

*shrug* You trying to get the thread locked by bringing up politics, because that's the best you got?   If not, I'd happily welcome a discussion about biological women competing against men in men's sports.   Do you understand bell curves?

Is it just me or is conservativism not restricted only to politics? Did you see Smac's post where he embedded a PragerU (a highly politically driven institution)? Yet there was silence from you then.

When I saw a 145lb woman knock an arrogant, beefcake, 270lb man who thought his gender, size and musculature were his advantage, on his rear... it became clear that his arrogance and presupposed advantage became his obvious disadvantage. I'm also proud to call that woman my biological sister. And I welcome any man to try what that man tried. The divorce was just the topping on the cake afterward.

[Damien the Leper]

16 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Since they have since received the ordinances of Exaltation- which was always declared the would one day receive- what would you call it?

Not whitewashing... Just clarifying.

🤙

Blacks held the priesthood before the bigot ban. Just clarifying.

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Postponed? Nice childish whitewashing of history, bruh. 

Why do you say that?  There was always except in a few cases (I believe one apostle said Blacks would always be servants…incorrectly) the expectation that eventually Blacks would receive the Priesthood (at sometime in the afterlife or at least at the end of the Millennium at Judgment time most likely from what Brigham said about all the children of Abel having their chance first, whatever that meant), which means eventually they would have the opportunity for exaltation.

Edited May 9, 2024 by Calm

[MrShorty]

58 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well, actually, no one did...

The Saving ordinances- baptism, reception of the Holy Ghost, sacrament- were never denied to anyone.

The ordinances of Exaltation were postponed for some for awhile- but that postponement had absolutely no bearing on their actual Exaltation.

To me, this seems at odds with @smac97's declaration that it is very important that we get these sorts of things right and not be influenced by societal trends. If God can simply redeem people in spite of any scenario where the church is influenced by societal trends, then does it really matter if the church is influenced more by social trends than eternal truth?

[LoudmouthMormon]

53 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

But conservatives don't want to talk about the trans females who invade men's sports.

32 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I'd happily welcome a discussion about biological women competing against men in men's sports.   Do you understand bell curves?  Ignoring the axis labels, do you understand what principle this image conveys?

3 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

When I saw a 145lb woman knock an arrogant, beefcake, 270lb man who thought his gender, size and musculature were his advantage, on his rear... it became clear that his arrogance and presupposed advantage became his obvious disadvantage. I'm also proud to call that woman my biological sister. And I welcome any man to try what that man tried. The divorce was just the topping on the cake afterward.

Okay.   Not sure what you think this has to do with the topic, but I'm glad to hear your sister defended herself against and divorced someone who it sounds like had some things coming to him.  On a related note, I'm grateful for various self-defense-for-women oriented places that teach practical skills and techniques that smaller and weaker folks can use against bigger and stronger folks.   The girl who dumped me on my head at the KM studio didn't really need those classes, but they're relevant to probably 80% of the biological females on planet earth.

If you'd care to interact with either of the questions I asked, that'd be just dandy.   If not, have a good day.

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Blacks held the priesthood before the bigot ban. Just clarifying.

I am extremely aware of Church history, from LDS, RLDS, and Fundamentalist, Church of Christ (Temple Lot), and Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) perspectives.

Notice I offered no opinions on the policy, I just simply pointed out the facts:

* Ordinances of Salvation were never denied.

* Ordinances of Exaltation were delayed.

* It was always taught- even by those who put the ban in places- that the ban would be lifted someday.

* Exaltation is available to the faithful, even if they have been denied the ordinances (right or wrongly).

🤙

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

To me, this seems at odds with @smac97's declaration that it is very important that we get these sorts of things right and not be influenced by societal trends. If God can simply redeem people in spite of any scenario where the church is influenced by societal trends, then does it really matter if the church is influenced more by social trends than eternal truth?

I believe @smac97 was incorrect in his wording, and will agree with my clarification once it comes to his attention.

🤙

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

When I saw a 145lb woman knock an arrogant, beefcake, 270lb man who thought his gender, size and musculature were his advantage, on his rear... it became clear that his arrogance and presupposed advantage became his obvious disadvantage. I'm also proud to call that woman my biological sister. And I welcome any man to try what that man tried. The divorce was just the topping on the cake afterward.

Unfortunately better skill or whatever benefitted your sister is not always enough.  It is not unknown for female experts in self defense and the martial arts to be unable to successfully defend themselves against sexual assaults, for example.  In the vast majority of cases of 145 lb women going up against 270 lb men outside of sports, it would not be the man ending up as the loser.  In sports, even with women choosing whether to participate or not, I would be surprised if there was not an advantage to being biologically male where many biological men won in bouts with biological women even if less skill (physics being less arbitrary in its application of its rules than humans), however I have never research sports events that have women pitted against men.

[ZealouslyStriving]

8 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

To me, this seems at odds with @smac97's declaration that it is very important that we get these sorts of things right and not be influenced by societal trends. If God can simply redeem people in spite of any scenario where the church is influenced by societal trends, then does it really matter if the church is influenced more by social trends than eternal truth?

You're are innocently misinterpreting my words. 

Those who are denied ordinances who would've otherwise received them will suffer no ill-effects to their exaltation. Those who refuse or neglect ordinances have no such promise.

I believe our doctrines are very clear on this.

🤙 

... Or I'm misinterpreting your words.

Edited May 9, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Damien the Leper]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why do you say that?  There was always except in a few cases (I believe one apostle said Blacks would always be servants…incorrectly) the expectation that eventually Blacks would receive the Priesthood (at sometime in the afterlife or at least at the end of the Millennium at Judgment time most likely from what Brigham said about all the children of Abel having their chance first, whatever that meant), which means eventually they would have the opportunity for exaltation.

I will admit that I am probably wrong. Perhaps in the hereafter I'll ask the Blacks if they received their priesthood and endowment in heaven or by compensational proxy ordinances done on earth.

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Damien the Leper said:

Blacks held the priesthood before the bigot ban. Just clarifying.

It is not whitewashing history to accurately present beliefs held in the past even if those beliefs were wrong (I am assuming your comment is based on your religious beliefs and is not an interpretation of LDS beliefs, which require an ordination in the Restored Church to hold an office in the Priesthood).

Edited May 9, 2024 by Calm