The Family Proclamation and the NHS

[SeekingUnderstanding]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

Oh, there is definitely advantage to making and keeping covenants now in our mortal phase. As well as education.
"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." D&C 50:18-19

The philosophical struggle was why some should have more of those advantages than others. The early and not-so-early brethren came up with some speculations to offer some explanation but in the end they failed. We still don't have a good answer. We still see through a thick glass darkly. While it is ok, potentially even good, to wonder about such things, it is far more important to realize the message of the parable of talents that where much is given much is required.

 

So would you agree that church leaders harmed those they denied ordinances to?

[ZealouslyStriving]

10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you mind explaining? Is it "not really" racist original sin or is it "not really" that LDS teaching repudiate original sin?

Me explaining was the point of the rest of that post.

Original sin teaches there are eternal consequences to the descendants of Adam because of his sin. Brigham's point (right or wrong) is that the "curse"- the delaying of Priesthood- was a temporary, mortal delay- not eternal.

Edited May 10, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[MrShorty]

4 hours ago, Nofear said:

The early and not-so-early brethren came up with some speculations to offer some explanation but in the end they failed. We still don't have a good answer. We still see through a thick glass darkly.

Part of why I keep pressing people about the process of discernment is because it seems that -- at least as it pertains to certain issues and beliefs around race -- we not only had a hard time see the truth, but we had a hard time discerning that our glass was dark and murky and cloudy and difficult to see through. When someone claims that they know that ______ is clearly a sin or disorder while appealing to things that seem so obvious to them, I wonder if we have encountered another case of not being able to see that our mirror is horribly dirty, therefore, not really able to see the truths that we think we see.

To me, this is the real challenge posed by the priesthood and temple ban. I am confident that God knows how to redeem people who were impacted by that one issue. The implications that run through how we come to discern God's will seem far more important because they ripple across everything we claim to know by revelation.

[MrShorty]

accidental duplicate

Edited May 10, 2024 by MrShorty
duplicate

[Nofear]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So would you agree that church leaders harmed those they denied ordinances to?

It is not without the realm of possibility in my mind that injustices occurred. History, by and large, I'll leave God to be the judge of and try to do better myself, now, where I can. And while I can do some things, I know that with Christ and the Atonement, injustices can be righted and errors corrected. With faith in Christ, no disadvantage imposed by man is insurmountable.

Example, suppose tomorrow I was murdered. That would cut short my mortal experience and many of the things I would have learned that were intended for me to learn. It would be a disadvantage. Nevertheless, I believe with Christ all that I had "lost" because of my murder would be recoverable in some manner or another. The disadvantage would essentially be erased.

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, MrShorty said:

Part of why I keep pressing people about the process of discernment is because it seems that -- at least as it pertains to certain issues and beliefs around race -- we not only had a hard time see the truth, but we had a hard time discerning that our glass was dark and murky and cloudy and difficult to see through. ...

Knowing why something is and knowing what we are to do are different things. I think Joseph Smith's tact is a good one. "Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire." --Joseph Smith

Of course knowing what God requires is a challenge for every mortal. What I can say, is the challenge of knowing what God requires of us is less challenging when one endeavors to do there best with the light and truth that has been revealed to them to that point. Thus, when one comes to me and says that such and such is not right and yet I can see they do not the things that I personally know are right to do, well, that diminishes my confidence in them quite a bit. Not that I would ever just take someone's word for it but I can ad-hominem dismiss the disobedients' exhortations as being worth serious consideration. Doesn't necessarily they'll be wrong in all things (even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile) but I'll be much more efficient if I spend more time in seeking personal guidance for myself and counsel from those who are obedient to that which I already personally know to be true.

[The Nehor]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

The vast majority of humans never had the opportunity to go to college.  Do you see college as not worth it, not important in this life because of that?  Would you tell someone not to bother?

I would not but I would also not tell people who were forbidden to attend college that it doesn’t matter as they will learn everything in the next life. I would also wonder why these people were forbidden.

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

The point being addressed is that... Whether the Priesthood ban was right or wrong, it was taught by those who initiated the ban that the ban would someday be lifted, which supports my assertion that ordinances of Exaltation were delayed, not denied.

It supports the assertion that that was taught….sort of.

However if all the premises on which the ban were based are false why would anyone trust the same person giving explanations of the eternal ramifications of it?

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Misrepresentation of what I'm saying and what the Church teaches.

If you have the opportunity to receive saving and exalting ordinances and you don't take advantage of that opportunity, everything will most definitely not be "fine" and you do need to "worry".

So people under the ban could very well be penalized for not accepting baptism and their then second-rate citizenship in the Kingdom of God?

[ZealouslyStriving]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So people under the ban could very well be penalized for not accepting baptism and their then second-rate citizenship in the Kingdom of God?

I enjoy how you framed that to try to create a gotcha- so I'll just keep it simple and let you have your "win":

Yes.

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I enjoy how you framed that to try to create a gotcha- so I'll just keep it simple and let you have your "win":

Yes.

I am not trying to win. I am trying to suss out something of the nature of justice and keep coming up with nothing. It is not a fun search.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, The Nehor said:

I am not trying to win. I am trying to suss out something of the nature of justice and keep coming up with nothing. It is not a fun search.

You are so focused on worldly concepts of justice you're not seeing how true justice and mercy work.

Gods true justice is eternal and is not limited by mans myopic version of it.

Mercy is organizing a plan where the vast majority of those who have lived on the earth will be saved somewhere in Celestial Glory.

[MrShorty]

2 thoughts on the Joseph Smith quote. 1) Unless you can trace it to a different source, I believe that comes from the so-called "Happiness Letter" allegedly written by the prophet to Nancy Rigdon asking her to marry him. One of the big concerns with this letter, as I understand it, is that it seems that all ways of tracing the letter back to the prophet seem to go through John C. Bennett, leaving some question as to whether the prophet actually wrote this letter, or whether Bennett fabricated the letter.

2) It's a long tangent away from the OP, but I find myself uncomfortable at best answering the Euthyphro dilemma with Divine Command theory.

That said, even if we accept the idea at face value that "Whatever God requires is right," the real question that I'm trying to drive at is How do we determine exactly what God is requiring of us? If I knew that God required something difficult of me (beyond reasonable doubt that it was actually God Himself requiring it), I would like to think I would have the courage and the strength to do what God required. At some level of doubt, then I don't think I comply with what God allegedly requires.

As you note, God doesn't usually talk to me directly, so it is almost exclusively through someone else claiming to speak for God that God tells me what He requires. I think there is value in considering those speakers' characters as one of many strategies for determining who is more likely to be speaking for God on any given issue. But that still leaves questions swirling around times when seemingly good people (good enough that I would sustain them as prophets and apostles) seem unable to recognize when God is not behind what they say God requires.

As it applies to this particular thread, the church claims that God requires those experiencing gender dysphoria (to use the clinical "disorder" term) need to find the right treatments so that they can get through life presenting as their biological sex at birth. The big question that never seems to get answered is, Does God actually require this? I'm not finding any good reasons to think that the church has correctly discerned what God is requiring here. The uncertainty sometimes gets big enough to break shelves, but there seems to be no way to get greater certainty or resolution.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You are so focused on worldly concepts of justice you're not seeing how true justice and mercy work.

Gods true justice is eternal and is not limited by mans myopic version of it.

Mercy is organizing a plan where the vast majority of those who have lived on the earth will be saved somewhere in Celestial Glory.

That is the problem right there in a nightshell. Yeah, I don’t see how true justice and mercy work because it is eternal and I can’t see it clearly. I don’t know that anyone can.

The scriptural attempts to explain it come up short. Either God and/or His prophets have an often childish view of how to bring people to God or it is some kind of meta-plan that is so complex and pervasive that we can’t understand it and somehow these simplistic takes are somehow also correct somehow?

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You are so focused on worldly concepts of justice you're not seeing how true justice and mercy work.

Gods true justice is eternal and is not limited by mans myopic version of it.

Mercy is organizing a plan where the vast majority of those who have lived on the earth will be saved somewhere in Celestial Glory.

No, I think you are wrong about Nehor’s reasoning. If rejection of opportunity to convert counts even when there are good reasons the person doesn’t accept the gospel (perhaps having been taught differently by loving parents they trust or it turning out the missionary that is teaching them is a jerk), why wouldn’t rejection of the gospel because one can’t accept the falsehood that all are not equal before God in the here and now also count as rejection of their opportunity for exaltation?

It is not a worldly concept that there is something wrong when some get to worship God in the temple and others don’t solely because of their racial heritage and not because of other choices on how to worship God in their lives. 

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

That is the problem right there in a nightshell. Yeah, I don’t see how true justice and mercy work because it is eternal and I can’t see it clearly. I don’t know that anyone can.

The scriptural attempts to explain it come up short. Either God and/or His prophets have an often childish view of how to bring people to God or it is some kind of meta-plan that is so complex and pervasive that we can’t understand it and somehow these simplistic takes are somehow also correct somehow?

A thorough, open minded reading and analysis of Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 will give any intelligent person who’s willing to see exactly how God’s mercy, grace and wisdom will eventually save all of his earthly children in a wondrous kingdom of heavenly glory, and how he will bestow upon each of his sons and daughters the exact degree of salvation and divine glory they’re willing to receive and enjoy. The only problem is that willfully blind cynics are too proud to be proven wrong, which is why they’ll never allow their minds to wrap around the plain and easily understood doctrines of Sections 76 and 138, choosing instead to stubbornly reject simple, common sense concepts that are easy enough for even a young child to understand. Why? After resisting the truth long enough, the willfully blind natural man eventually devolves into a state of masochism in which he takes perverse enjoyment in cynicism and negativity, and this is why such people will never allow anything or anybody to penetrate the wall of unbelief they’ve carefully built around themselves. But even the vast majority of these defiant souls will one day be reached and converted by the redeeming love of God, and this will happen after they finally come to the sure and certain realization that life without the love and mercy of Christ is an extremely counterproductive and foolhardy long term strategy. 

Edited May 11, 2024 by teddyaware

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

how he will bestow upon each of his sons and daughters the exact degree of salvation and divine glory they’re willing to receive and enjoy.

So do you agree that those who were blinded by the craftiness or other errors of men and therefore rejected the gospel in this life, but fully accept the gospel once they realize their errors in judging the gospel by the men that were teaching it or by mistaken understandings will be able to live in the Cesletial Kingdom and even receive exaltation if that is the degree of salvation and glory they desire once their understanding of the gospel as God’s is accurate?

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

A thorough, open minded reading and analysis of Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 will give any intelligent person who’s willing to see exactly how God’s mercy, grace and wisdom will eventually save all of his earthly children in a wondrous kingdom of heavenly glory, and how he will bestow upon each of his sons and daughters the exact degree of salvation and divine glory they’re willing to receive and enjoy. The only problem is that willfully blind cynics are too proud to be proven wrong, which is why they’ll never allow their minds to wrap around the plain and easily understood doctrines of Sections 76 and 138, choosing instead to stubbornly reject simple, common sense concepts that are easy enough for even a young child to understand. Why? After resisting the truth long enough, the willfully blind natural man eventually devolves into a state of masochism in which he takes perverse enjoyment in cynicism and negativity, and this is why such people will never allow anything or anybody to penetrate the wall of unbelief they’ve carefully built around themselves. But even the vast majority of these defiant souls will one day be reached and converted by the redeeming love of God, and this will happen after they finally come to the sure and certain realization that life without the love and mercy of Christ is an extremely counterproductive and foolhardy long term strategy. 

Of course any intelligent person would also know those sections have nothing to do with what we were talking about. Sadly some are blinded by the devil who flatters them about how clever and insightful they are. These sad souls may one day find the walls of their own conceit pierced by reason and understanding but I’m not holding my breath.

[Doctor Steuss]

On 5/10/2024 at 6:06 PM, teddyaware said:

[...] any intelligent person [...]

**Plain and simple truths have left the chat.**