You get a World & You get a World & You get a World...oops, Not so Fast

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Craig Speechly said:

Having grown up during the 70's and 80's, I well remember the many talks by Bruce R. McConkie, Spencer W. Kimball and Marion G. Hanks, to name but a few, who proudly proclaimed to all the world the Mormon Doctrine of Eternal Progression and our ability to receive all that God has, even Godhood and all of it's rewards, including creating our own worlds and yes even our own planet on which to dwell in our own heaven.

Seemingly embarrassed by this doctrine and in part due to it's wide spread exposure from the Book of Mormon musical, the church is now back tracking and distancing itself from these former bedrock doctrines.

In the Hello Saints podcast, hosted by Evangelical Pastor Jeff McCullough, Jeff interviews members of the church to gain understanding and build bridges.  In episode 5, Jeff interviews Religion Professor & LDS Author David Butler.  Butler basically denies this once core belief suggesting with a laugh... "well that made for a great musical", but then denies that it is a core LDS belief.  Butler also suggests that eternal marriage involving multiple wives is optional with the 1st spouse having veto rights. What the Fudge?

The church has also distanced itself from this doctrine in it's essay. Sorry but this is not a doctrine that I even recognize. Or is this just an effort at wink, wink and face saving?

Has anyone else noticed this distancing from a once core Enteral Progression doctrine to make the church more palatable to Christian evangelicalism?

You can listen to this podcast Here  You can listen to the Book of Mormon Musical song "I Believe"  Here and the Essay Here

Here are just a few quotes that support the once traditional Plan of Salvation that Butler is now walking away from.

“We educate ourselves in the secular field and in the spiritual field so that we may one day create worlds, people and govern them.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).

 

In 2001 Henry B. Eyring repeated the key part of this quote in a Church Educational System (CES) fireside talk on Sunday, May 6, in Moscow, Idaho. His message was titled, “Drive for learning must have powerful spiritual component.” The quote was repeated not only in the LDS Church News, but also in the October 2002 Ensign. On the official LDS seminary website, Kimball’s quote was again cited by Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott. In Mormonism, “seminary” is geared for high-school students. 

 

“The real life we’re preparing for is eternal life. Secular knowledge has for us eternal significance. Our conviction is that God, our Heavenly Father, wants us to live the life that He does. We learn both the spiritual things and the secular things ‘so we may one day create worlds [and] people and govern them’ (Spencer W. Kimball, The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 386).” (Henry B. Eyring)

 

“Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (Spencer W. Kimball, “The Privilege of Holding the Priesthood,” Ensign (Conference Edition), November 1975, p. 80. Quoted in Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual).

 

10th President Joseph Fielding Smith

 

“That great blessing of celestial glory could never have come to us without a period of time in mortality, and so we came here in this mortal world. We are in school, the mortal school, to gain the experiences, the training, the joys, and the sufferings that we partake of, that we might be educated in all these things and be prepared, if we are faithful and true to the commandments of the Lord, to become sons and daughters of God, joint heirs with Jesus Christ; and in His presence to go on to a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever, and perhaps through our faithfulness to have the opportunity of building worlds and peopling them.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Adam’s Role in Bringing Us Mortality,” General Conference, Oct. 1976, reprinted in Liahona, Jan. 2006.)

 

“The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fullness of his kingdom. In other words, we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 1976, p.132)

 

5th President Lorenzo Snow

 

On page 90 (chapter five) of the correlated manual titled Presidents of the Church Student Manual: Religion 345 (2004), under the subheading, “They Shall Organize Worlds and Rule Over Them,” it states:

 

“Only a short time before his death, President Snow visited the Brigham Young University [then Brigham Young Academy], at Provo. President Brimhall escorted the party through one of the buildings; he wanted to reach the assembly room as soon as possible, as the students had already gathered. They were going through one of the kindergarten rooms; President Brimhall had reached the door and was about to open it and go on when President Snow said: ‘Wait a moment, President Brimhall, I want to see these children at work; what are they doing?’ Brother Brimhall replied that they were making clay spheres. ‘That is very interesting,’ the President said. ‘I want to watch them.’ He quietly watched the children for several minutes and then lifted a little girl, perhaps six years of age, and stood her on a table. He then took the clay sphere from her hand, and, turning to Brother Brimhall, said: ‘President Brimhall, these children are now at play, making mud worlds, the time will come when some of these boys, through their faithfulness to the gospel, will progress and develop in knowledge, intelligence and power, in future eternities, until they shall be able to go out into space where there is unorganized matter and call together the necessary elements, and through their knowledge of and control over the laws and powers of nature, to organize matter into worlds on which their posterity may dwell, and over which they shall rule as gods.’ (Snow, Improvement Era, June 1919, 658–59).”

 

“We are the offspring of God, born with the same faculties and powers as He possesses, capable of enlargement through the experience that we are now passing through in our second estate… He has begotten us in His own image. He has given us faculties and powers that are capable of enlargement until His fullness is reached which He has promised — until we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally.” (Millennial Star 56:772, October 5, 1894)

 

“When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring, worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman, in the other life, having celestial bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end” (Deseret News, 13 Mar. 1897; quoted by Spencer W. Kimball in The Miracle of Forgiveness [1969], 246;  See also Lesson 10 of The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A).

 

2nd President Brigham Young

 

“All those who are counted worthy to be exalted and to become Gods, even the sons of God, will go forth and have earths and worlds like those who framed this and millions on millions of others.” (Journal of Discourses 17:143)

 

“Having fought the good fight we then shall be prepared to lay our bodies down to rest to await the morning of the resurrection when they will come forth and be reunited with the spirits, the faithful, as it is said, receiving crowns, glory, immortality and eternal lives, even a fulness with the Father, when Jesus shall present His work to the Father, saying, ‘Father, here is the work thou gavest me to do.’ Then will they become Gods, even the sons of God; then will they become eternal fathers, eternal mothers, eternal sons and eternal daughters; being eternal in their organization they go from glory to glory, from power to power; they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” (Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 283; Journal of Discourses 18:259, October 8, 1876)

 

Apostle Orson Pratt

 

“But another and still greater object the Lord had in view in sending us down from yonder world to this is, that we might be redeemed in due time, by keeping the celestial law, and have our tabernacles restored to us in all the beauty of immortality. Then we will be able to multiply and extend forth our posterity and the increase of our dominion without end. Can spirits do this? No, they remain single. There are no marriages among spirits, no coupling together of the males and females among them; but when they rise from the grave, after being tabernacled in mortal bodies, they have all the functions that are necessary to people worlds. As our Father and God begat us, sons and daughters, so will we rise immortal, males and females, and beget children, and, in our turn, form and create worlds, and send forth our spirit children to inherit those worlds, the same as we were sent here, and thus will the works of God continue, and not only God himself, and His Son Jesus Christ have the power of endless lives, but all of His redeemed offspring.” (Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 14:242)

 

“Each God, through his wife or wives, raises up a numerous family of sons and daughters; indeed, there will be no end to the increase of his own children: for each father and mother will be in a condition to multiply forever and ever. As soon as each God has begotten many millions of male and female spirits, and his Heavenly inheritance becomes too small, to comfortably accommodate his great family, he, in connection with his sons, organizes a new world, after a similar order to the one which we now inhabit, where he sends both the male and female spirits to inhabit tabernacles of flesh and bones. Thus each God forms a world for the accommodation of his own sons and daughters who are sent forth in their times and seasons, and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore, and worship their own personal father who dwells in the Heaven which they formerly inhabited.” (The Seer, 37, March 1853)

 

Apostle Moses Thatcher

 

“There is a spirit in man and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth it understanding; the sinful who listen and obey are led to repentance, and, through the doors of baptism of the water and spirit are brought out of wickedness to the enlightenment of pure knowledge, until in obedience to heavenly law they secure the keys of power authorizing them to pass by the angels, inherit glory, become heirs of God, joint heirs with Christ; and, having abiding in them eternal lives shall beget, throughout the endless ages of eternity, the souls of the children of men to the honor and glory of God, and create and have dominion over worlds.” (Moses Thatcher, Journal of Discourses 26:305)

 

Apostle Melvin J. Ballard

 

“What do we mean by endless or eternal increase? We mean that through the righteousness and faithfulness of men and women who keep the commandments of God they will come forth with celestial bodies, fitted and prepared to enter into their great, high and eternal glory in the celestial kingdom of God; and unto them, through their preparation, there will come children, who will be spirit children. I don’t think that is very difficult to comprehend and understand” (Three Degrees of Glory, 10, 1922).

 

Apostle L. Tom Perry

 

Elder L. Tom Perry, Receive Truth, Ensign (CR), November 1997, p.60

 

“Peter and John had little secular learning, being termed ignorant. But they knew the vital things of life, that God lives and that the crucified, resurrected Lord is the Son of God. They knew the path to eternal life. This they learned in a few decades of their mortal life. Their righteous lives opened the door to godhood for them and creation of worlds with eternal increase. For this they would probably need, eventually, a total knowledge of the sciences. But whereas Peter and John had only decades to learn and do the spiritual, they have already had nineteen centuries in which to learn the secular or the geology of the earth, the zoology and physiology and psychology of the creatures of the earth. Mortality is the time to learn first of God and the gospel and to perform the ordinances. After our feet are set firmly on the path to eternal life we can amass more knowledge of the secular things” (President Kimball Speaks Out [1981], 91).

 

In an October, 1997 conference address titled, “Receive Truth,” Apostle L. Tom Perry cited 12th President Spencer W. Kimball who taught, “Peter and John had little secular learning, being termed ignorant. But they knew the vital things of life, that God lives and that the crucified, resurrected Lord is the Son of God. They knew the path to eternal life. This they learned in a few decades of their mortal life. Their righteous lives opened the door to godhood for them and creation of worlds with eternal increase”  (President Kimball Speaks Out [1981], 91). (See Ensign, November 1997, p. 60).

 

Apostle Bruce McConkie

 

“Exalted parents are to their children as our Eternal Parents are to us. Eternal increase, a continuation of the seeds forever and ever, eternal lives — these comprise the eternal family of those who gain eternal life. For them new earths are created, and thus the on-rolling purposes of the Gods of Heaven go forward from eternity to eternity.” (Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, 23, 1982)

 

LDS Church Manuals

 

“To live in the highest part of the celestial kingdom is called exaltation or eternal life. To be able to live in this part of the celestial kingdom, people must have been married in the temple and must have kept the sacred promises they made in the temple. They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done. People who are not married in the temple may live in other parts of the celestial kingdom, but they will not be exalted” (Gospel Fundamentals [2001], 201).

 

“An essential requirement for exaltation is celestial marriage, for exaltation depends upon the continuation of the family in eternity and the power to populate other worlds as our Father did this one.” (Principles of the Gospel, published by the LDS Church, 1976)

 

Other sources

 

“And so through the power of the priesthood the man has the opportunity of obtaining that degree of perfection by which he may create worlds and populate them with his own offspring” (Patriarch Eldred G. Smith, BYU Speeches of the Year, March 10, 1964, p.7).

 

“Long before our God began his creations, he dwelt on a mortal world like ours, one of the creations that his Father had created for him and his brethren. He, with many of his brethren, was obedient to the principles of the eternal gospel. One among these, it is presumed, was a savior for them, and through him they obtained a resurrection and an exaltation on an eternal, celestial world. 8 Then they gained the power and godhood of their Father and were made heirs of all that he had, continuing his works and creating worlds of their own for their own posterity—the same as their Father had done before, and his Father, and his Father, and on and on. . . Nothing is more basic in the restored gospel than these truths that, because of recent events of space travel, are so timely. The great hope of the gospel for us is that we may come to a oneness with our Lord and our Father and partake of this same work and glory and godhood. Being joint-heirs of all that the Father has, we may then look forward to using those powers to organize still other worlds from the unorganized matter that exists throughout boundless space. Creating other worlds, peopling them with our own eternal posterity, providing a savior for them, and making known to them the saving principles of the eternal gospel, that they may have the same experiences we are now having and be exalted with us in their turn—this is eternal life. No wonder this possibility continues to fascinate and inspire Saints of all ages.” (BYU Professor Kent Nielson, “People on Other Worlds”, Ensign, April 1971)

 

“Brigham Young believed that man is sovereign over his own actions; yet he did not rule out the omnipotence of God. He recognized the possibility of divine intervention, such as the religious experience of Paul, but believed the ultimate decisions of life affecting man’s eternal destiny are to be left to man. This idea was so important to Brigham Young as he conceived the purpose of this mortal existence that he said that ‘the consent of the creature must be obtained before the Creator can rule perfectly.’ Explaining this with eternal perspective, Brigham Young said: ‘Man is made an agent to himself before his God; he is organized for the express purpose, that he may become like his master. The Lord has organized mankind for the purpose of increasing in that intelligence and truth. . . until he is capable of creating worlds on worlds, and becoming Gods, even the sons of God.’ Believing that ‘the power of choice all intelligent beings inherit from the Gods of eternity. . . is innate,’ ” (“The Reflections of Brigham Young on the Nature of Man and the State,” by J. Keith Melville, BYU Studies, vol. 4 (1961-1962), Num. 3 and 4 – Spring and Summer 1962, p.257)

 

“So far as the stages of eternal progression and attainment have been made known through divine revelation, we are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring. Only such exalted souls have reached maturity in the appointed course of eternal life; and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation.” (A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency [Joseph F. Smith, Anthon H. Lund, Charles W. Penrose] and the Twelve, “The Father and the Son,” Improvement Era, June 1916, 942, quoted in Achieving a Celestial Marriage Student Manual, 131, 1976)

 

In his book Doctrinal Details of the Plan of Salvation (2005), Mormon educator David J. Ridges, who served 35 years with the Church Educational System, listed 44 true or false questions in what he called a “Plan of Salvation Pretest.” Question 31 (page 4) states “Those who receive exaltation will actually be making and peopling worlds of their own.” On page 13 he states that the answer is true, “President Brigham Young said, ‘After men have got their exaltations and their crowns—have become Gods, even the sons of God. . . they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world’ (Journal of Discourses, 6:275).”

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great post.  And then we have this:

Quote

 

11. Do Latter-day Saints believe they can become “gods”?

Latter-day Saints believe that is God’s purpose to exalt us to become like Him. But this teaching is often misrepresented by those who caricature the faith. The Latter-day Saint belief is no different than the biblical teaching, which states, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together” (Romans 8:16-17).

12. Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Latter-day Saints believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2). https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/frequently-asked-questions

 

I think many former LDS leaders would be surprised to hear that what they taught emphatically is now relegated to "speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine."

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think the church has changed it's understanding of what that doctrine means and how it is interpreted, but the core behind those previous understandings and interpretations remains the same as it always has. 

Can you explain the bolded comment a bit further please?

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

In the past our leaders seemed really comfortable extrapolating teachings from a small amount of doctrine.  We've really back off on that over the decades.  Too much opinion taught over the pulpit as doctrine I think.

Maybe you can point out what part of the Essay you find contradicts earlier teachings.  I'm not sure what you are referring to specifically on that.

Well if you read what they said they were pretty emphatic that this was not opinion. It was taught. Frequently.  Not just a little.  Not just here and there. ANd it has its roots in Joseph's King Follott Sermon.

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Can you explain the bolded comment a bit further please?

Well if you read what they said they were pretty emphatic that this was not opinion. It was taught. Frequently.  Not just a little.  Not just here and there. ANd it has its roots in Joseph's King Follott Sermon.

It has roots in doctrine and not just the King Follot Sermon, and I agree it was an interpretation of doctrine that was frequently taught.  Lots of things that were frequently taught aren't taught anymore though, right?

Race, marriage, birth control, modesty standards, polygamy, sealings, the Catholic church being the church of the Devil, the Word of Wisdom applications, the realities of evolution....even whether or not face cards are a tool of the devil or if women could pray in a sacrament meeting or not.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

I personally don't believe we "each (eventually) get our own planet". If such was the case, our Celestial abode (this earth in its perfected, paradisical state) would be left uninhabited, thus destroying the purpose of its creation. We were created for this planet and upon this planet we will remain.

But that's just my opinion.

[Stormin' Mormon]

I'm not sure that the OP has presented enough citations to make the assumption that he has.

Yes, he has a bunch of quotes from the 1960s and 1970s about the whole "populate other worlds in eternity" concept.  But he's provided as many citations from before 1960 as he has for after 1990.  Without a deeper dive into a review of the literature, it appears that the Church of the 1960s and 1970s was the historical anomaly, not the Church of the 21st century.

I'm not claiming that the idea was never taught before 1960, nor am I even claiming that it wasn't taught extensively before then.  I'm just pointing out that the citations provided by the OP do not establish in which time period the actual anomaly occurs.  I'd love to read more about how the idea has evolved over the last 150 years, so I'm more than open to reading a more thorough (and preferably less biased) treatment of the question.    

Edited April 22, 2024 by Stormin' Mormon

[Calm]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

Is anyone else getting weird formatting stuff in this thread?  It seems to be coming from Craig's copy and paste stuff.  I see a very long line of text (one letter per line) streaming down the page.

Apparently that is what happens when you rip stuff off from antimormon sites without giving them credit, which is where all good and faithful Saints go to get their information…

https://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm not sure that the OP has presented enough citations to make the assumption that he has.

I am certain he will have mrm get right to work on it. 

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, smac97 said:

A few thoughts:

1. I think commentary like what we see in the OP is often an exercise in A) wishful thinking, B) projection, or C) a bit of A and B.  

2. Another common feature of this sort of commentary is to demean it by caricature, to describe it in language calculated to mock and offend and profane rather than fairly describe and explain.  Paraphrasing Oprah Winfrey is a good example of this.

3. Craig's surmise is that the Church is "{s}eemingly embarrassed by this doctrine {exaltation}," such that "the church is now back tracking and distancing itself from these former bedrock doctrines."  That is a curious narrative.  The Church has a number of unique doctrines and practices, many of which are as visible, or even more so, than the doctrine of exaltation. 

For example, back in the 1996 there was a book-length effort to claim that the Latter-day Saints had become "Ashamed of Joseph."  Nine years later, the Church released Joseph Smith: The Prophet of the Restoration at the Joseph Smith Memorial Building and elsewhere:

The film was also released on DVD in 2010 and revised in 2011.

We are similarly pretty open with temples (lots of publicity about open houses and tours, etc., including explanations of Baptism for the Dead), missionary work, family history work, and so on.  Heavenly Mother has Her own Gospel Topics Essay, as does polygamy (multiple essays, in fact), and the Book of Abraham, and The Book of Mormon.

IOW, there's not really a good argument to be made that the Church is "embarrassed" about the theophanies and experiences of Joseph Smith, and the Gold Plates, and the Book of Mormon, the restoration of Priesthood authority, and so on. 

4. If we are "now back tracking and distancing itself from these former bedrock doctrines," it seems odd that one of the fourteen Gospel Topics Essays is all about exaltation: 

Becoming Like God

Some excerpts:

• "Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all people may “progress toward perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny.” Just as a child can develop the attributes of his or her parents over time, the divine nature that humans inherit can be developed to become like their Heavenly Father’s."
• "What does the Bible say about humans’ divine potential?"
• "Later in the Old Testament, a passage in the book of Psalms declares, 'I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.'"
• "New Testament passages also point to this doctrine. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy on the grounds that 'thou, being a man, makest thyself God,' He responded, echoing Psalms, 'Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?'"
• "In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commanded His disciples to become 'perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' In turn, the Apostle Peter referred to the Savior’s 'exceeding great and precious promises' that we might become “partakers of the divine nature.'"
• "The Apostle Paul taught that we are 'the offspring of God' and emphasized that as such 'we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.'"
• "These passages can be interpreted in different ways. Yet by viewing them through the clarifying lens of revelations received by Joseph Smith, Latter-day Saints see these scriptures as straightforward expressions of humanity’s divine nature and potential."
• "Many church fathers (influential theologians and teachers in early Christianity) spoke approvingly of the idea that humans can become divine. One modern scholar refers to the 'ubiquity of the doctrine of deification'—the teaching that humans could become God—in the first centuries after Christ’s death."
• "The church father Irenaeus, who died about A.D. 202, asserted that Jesus Christ 'did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be what He is Himself.' Clement of Alexandria (ca. A.D. 150–215) wrote that 'the Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God.' Basil the Great (A.D. 330–379) also celebrated this prospect—not just 'being made like to God,' but 'highest of all, the being made God.'"
• "Joseph Smith continued to receive revelation on the themes of divine nature and exaltation during the last two years of his life. In a revelation recorded in July 1843 that linked exaltation with eternal marriage, the Lord declared that those who keep covenants, including the covenant of eternal marriage, will inherit 'all heights and depths.' 'Then,' says the revelation, 'shall they be gods, because they have no end.' They will receive 'a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.'"
• "'What kind of a being is God?' he asked. Human beings needed to know, he argued, because 'if men do not comprehend the character of God they do not comprehend themselves.' In that phrase, the Prophet collapsed the gulf that centuries of confusion had created between God and humanity. Human nature was at its core divine. God 'was once as one of us' and 'all the spirits that God ever sent into the world' were likewise 'susceptible of enlargement.' Joseph Smith preached that long before the world was formed, God found 'himself in the midst' of these beings and 'saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself' and be 'exalted' with Him."
• "Joseph told the assembled Saints, 'You have got to learn how to be a god yourself.' In order to do that, the Saints needed to learn godliness, or to be more like God."
• "Humankind’s divine nature and potential for exaltation have been repeatedly taught in general conference addresses, Church magazines, and other Church materials. When Latter-day Saint young women recite their theme, each affirms, 'I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents, with a divine nature and eternal destiny.' Teaching on human beings’ divine parentage, nature, and potential features prominently in 'The Family: A Proclamation to the World.' Divine nature and exaltation are essential and beloved teachings in the Church."

Kinda hard to read all these statements and square it with Craig's notion that the Church is "embarrassed" about them.

5. Is anyone else getting weird formatting stuff in this thread?  It seems to be coming from Craig's copy and paste stuff.  I see a very long line of text (one letter per line) streaming down the page.

Thanks,

-Smac

This is a fair and reasonable post.  But it does seem that the church does not really emphasize what exalted beings will be doing. At least not like many leaders used to.  Do you disagree with that? 

[Stargazer]

21 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I personally don't believe we "each (eventually) get our own planet". If such was the case, our Celestial abode (this earth in its perfected, paradisical state) would be left uninhabited, thus destroying the purpose of its creation. We were created for this planet and upon this planet we will remain.

But that's just my opinion.

Well, let me gleefully disagree with you!  

DC 130:9 says "This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s."

It doesn't say that everyone who ever lived here will continue to live here, but there will be some inhabitants who dwell thereon. 

In Moses 1:33-39 it was revealed to Moses (and hence us) that there have been, presently are, and will be many earths upon which Father will place his children. "And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words." 

Here, the Lord tells Moses that He has created and is creating many worlds for many Adams to live on. And many have passed away, or in other words gone through their life cycles where spirits have spent their mortal lives, until their Millenniums and wrapping up have taken place. Also, many more will be created in the future for the same purpose.

Well, for post-resurrection glorified Telestial and Terrestrial beings, I can't think of a better way to spend eternity as a servant of God, than to assist in the creation and progression of these worlds, and all the non-populated worlds and suns, and solar systems and galaxies. The job never ends, as God says "there is no end to my works." And thus they will glorify God by assisting Him in that noble work, forever. And some will reside on the glorified earth.

As for the post-resurrection glorified Celestial beings, they of course will move along in a higher realm, serving God at a higher level in his creations, or if worthy of the highest degree of the Celestial glory, to be prepared for exaltation, to do what Father does.

I am pretty sure that Father has many laborers in His vineyard (which is the Universe), and there is much for them to do in it. I suppose that for those who do not go on to do what the Father does (in their very own universes), they may dwell on glorified earths and help Father govern His Kingdom.

But that's just my opinion!  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

But it does seem that the church does not really emphasize what exalted beings will be doing. At least not like many leaders used to.  Do you disagree with that? 

If such was speculation and not revealed, then Hallelujah that is happening. 

I think we have made such a big of a deal of knowing what our purpose is for this life (and it is a big deal imo) that some Saints extrapolated that revelation to an expectation we would also easily know what would be going on throughout the next life, not just up to where we got in the door, but all the billions and trillions and googolplexplex eternities of years and they just went with what made sense…..to them.  I speculate this because their solution appears (to me at least) to be ‘let’s take my best life ever here, but where the rain is gone, remove all obstacles in my way, all the dark clouds that had me blind, the pain is gone, all the bad feelings have disappeared and make all that blue sky a trillion times better!’ or whatever amount appealed to them in the moment and there they had their heaven.

And then these men shared their idea of what heaven was going to be in their view from the pulpit, certain their reasoning was solid, and it got set in stone and now has to get chiseled out.

But reasoning is not revelation unless it gets confirmed by the Spirit.  Certainty is no substitute for the Holy Spirit.

And for me the crucial aspect of it all is they were from a very strong work ethic with a huge streak of manifest destiny thrown in….work, work, work, expand, expand, expand, grow, grow, grow…that got applied to the few things that were revealed, such as we are God’s spirit children, Heavenly Mother is our spiritual parent along with the Father, we can be one with Christ and each other, marriage and family are eternal, and God has endless works…and if that is what God the Father has, well, the honest, hardworking Saint wanting to be like his father will aspire to the same, correct?  Because that is what a good son tries to do, learn from his father and follows in his footsteps.

The above seems to me why the focus is not on having a glorious time spending the day with the family at the celestial beach dipping in the purest waves ever, having picnics with endless numbers of friends and being able to remember all their names even, building elaborate sandcastles and just having an endless amount of joy, but instead when we speak of heaven it sounds more like the heaven of type A workaholics, where one man has endless territories and properties, is making more in every moment, has all his kids doing the same thing adding their infinite empires to his, which he then adds to his father’s; the kids he acquires through the endless labors of his endless wives…more more more possessions, whether properties of new worlds and universes or endless posterity mass produced by their unassuming, but devoted wives.  Sounds heavenly, doesn’t it?  Probably does to quite a few, it’s living the dream for many.

Not so much for those whose goal is to simplify things, prefers small places where it is easier to get lost in contemplation of one small thing, where possessions are few, but each highly valued.  Who loves gathering with a few choice friends and having endless nights of talking about everything over delicious food and great music, another day with perfect joy in it…and hardly wasted if you are making perfect joy with others. 
 

I believe that it has been revealed that “Man is that he might have joy”. So whatever we end up doing, it will bring by us great joy, maximize it, I believe, and if so, it makes sense to me there will be many ways to achieve this, not just a one size fits all ‘marry the girl of your dreams, you go out and conquer matter to create worlds ready for all your future progeny that mom stayed home to pop…..eternally”

Edited April 22, 2024 by Calm

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

And I agree with him, because I don't know any members personally whose goal is to get their own planet and who are active in the church so that that can happen.  While we may believe that is what will happen eons from now through the grace of Christ and by becoming joint-heirs with Him, getting our own planet isn't anyone's focus.  

Well there was a time that I and many others believed that exaltation entailed being a god, creating worlds and populating those worlds with our spirit children.  We believed it, we hoped for it and the leaders taught it. Explicitly.  I was still active when this started to wane and apparently based on your experience it has.  But it was a primary focus for me and my LDS peers up till I would say the early to mid 1990s.

[ZealouslyStriving]

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, let me gleefully disagree with you!  

DC 130:9 says "This earth, in its sanctified and immortal state, will be made like unto crystal and will be a Urim and Thummim to the inhabitants who dwell thereon, whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom, or all kingdoms of a lower order, will be manifest to those who dwell on it; and this earth will be Christ’s."

It doesn't say that everyone who ever lived here will continue to live here, but there will be some inhabitants who dwell thereon. 

My bad... Let me clarify:

All those who have been judged worthy of Celestial Glory will abide up on this earth.

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

In Moses 1:33-39 it was revealed to Moses (and hence us) that there have been, presently are, and will be many earths upon which Father will place his children. "And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words." 

Here, the Lord tells Moses that He has created and is creating many worlds for many Adams to live on. And many have passed away, or in other words gone through their life cycles where spirits have spent their mortal lives, until their Millenniums and wrapping up have taken place. Also, many more will be created in the future for the same purpose.

I agree... There are many worlds, populated by Heavenly Father's children. And they pertain, and will pertain (if Celestialized©)to the earth onto which they were born. Apparently, groups of us were meant to abide together on different earths. Maybe it's determined by whom our Heavenly Mother is (accepting plural marriage as the order of Celestial Exaltation)?

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, for post-resurrection glorified Telestial and Terrestrial beings, I can't think of a better way to spend eternity as a servant of God, than to assist in the creation and progression of these worlds, and all the non-populated worlds and suns, and solar systems and galaxies. The job never ends, as God says "there is no end to my works." And thus they will glorify God by assisting Him in that noble work, forever. And some will reside on the glorified earth.

As far as I know, the Church teaches that only those receiving Celestial Salvation or Exaltation will be allowed to abide on the earth. Celestialites© will visit them, but they can't visit the Celestial earth.

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

As for the post-resurrection glorified Celestial beings, they of course will move along in a higher realm, serving God at a higher level in his creations, or if worthy of the highest degree of the Celestial glory, to be prepared for exaltation, to do what Father does.

I don't know that that entails depopulating the earth to go off onto our own individual, private "planets".

37 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I am pretty sure that Father has many laborers in His vineyard (which is the Universe), and there is much for them to do in it. I suppose that for those who do not go on to do what the Father does (in their very own universes), they may dwell on glorified earths and help Father govern His Kingdom.

But that's just my opinion!  

And I thank you for sharing it. 🤝

Edited April 22, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well there was a time that I and many others believed that exaltation entailed being a god, creating worlds and populating those worlds with our spirit children.  We believed it, we hoped for it and the leaders taught it. Explicitly.  I was still active when this started to wane and apparently based on your experience it has.  But it was a primary focus for me and my LDS peers up till I would say the early to mid 1990s.

We still believe that being exalted entails being a god and having spirit children.  The 'having your own world' interpretation has changed some, and I don't doubt that some find that annoying or just plain wrong or troubling.  

I read some of the journal entries of polygamist wives when polygamy ended and they are heartbreaking with how much pain that change in understanding caused.  I know of members that struggled mightily when blacks were allowed to be ordained and enter the temple.  I know of women right now who struggle with the implications of the changes in garment length over the decades and what that means to them today.

I'm not trying to make light of the repercussions of such changes, only to illustrate that they have always happened and that people in your era in regards to this teaching are in very good company. 

I also want to point out that while others have been in your shoes, you've been in my shoes as well, and so you should be able to understand where I'm coming from.

I'm guessing that you never felt it was a big deal that some people lived in a world were polygamy was taught to be the new and everlasting covenant and then had to rearrange their thinking (and sometimes their lives) on that issue when it ended in 1890, for example.  You lived in a time when the church approached that topic differently, and so it's likely that you viewed it much much differently than those who grew up in living polygamy, and then having it end, viewed that change.

If that's true, then you can understand why I don't really see it as a big deal that you lived in a world where being exalted was taught slightly differently than it is now.

If--to use a another example of why I don't think this change in focus is that noteworthy--the change in the doctrine of sealings didn't cause me to question my testimony, why would this change be any different?  If the church is true when the changing understanding of doctrine happens to someone else, then it's still true when it happens to me.

Edited April 22, 2024 by bluebell

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It has roots in doctrine and not just the King Follot Sermon,

Yes I agree. 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

 

and I agree it was an interpretation of doctrine that was frequently taught.  Lots of things that were frequently taught aren't taught anymore though, right?

Apparently. 

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Race, marriage, birth control, modesty standards, polygamy, sealings, the Catholic church being the church of the Devil, the Word of Wisdom applications, the realities of evolution....even whether or not face cards are a tool of the devil or if women could pray in a sacrament meeting or not.

 

Yep.  And that is why I don't find the LDS prophets and apostles anymore insiteful on things claimed to be doctrinal than any other religious leaders.  To much of a moving target. 

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm not sure that the OP has presented enough citations to make the assumption that he has.

Yes, he has a bunch of quotes from the 1960s and 1970s about the whole "populate other worlds in eternity" concept.  But he's provided as many citations from before 1960 as he has for after 1990.  Without a deeper dive into a review of the literature, it appears that the Church of the 1960s and 1970s was the historical anomaly, not the Church of the 21st century.

I'm not claiming that the idea was never taught before 1960, nor am I even claiming that it wasn't taught extensively before then.  I'm just pointing out that the citations provided by the OP do not establish in which time period the actual anomaly occurs.  I'd love to read more about how the idea has evolved over the last 150 years, so I'm more than open to reading a more thorough (and preferably less biased) treatment of the question.    

I think if you go back in history you will find a plethora of LDS leaders teaching what they believed exaltation meant and it pretty much is similar to what you think is an anomaly of the 1960s and 1970s. 

[Kenngo1969]

Maybe I will get a world ... someday.  Right now, I'm focused more on getting 100 percent ministering.*   

*Yes, I know that ministering is more about saving and exalting souls than it is about statistics.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

If such was speculation and not revealed, then Hallelujah that is happening. 

I hardly think that the speakers of the sermons on this topic viewed their words as speculation. I think you and I were of the same era.  Did you think they were speculative when the leaders said the things they said about exaltation?  And were they speculative when such teachings were included in lesson manuals?

[Craig Speechly]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think our leaders are more aware of how easy it is for even well-reasoned opinions to be wrong, and they've seen the collateral damage that happens to members when leaders teach stuff that ends up being incorrect and so are much more careful about what they espouse.

The internet and social media have clearly had an impact on what leadership choose to speak about publicly, their comments often have consequences.

I listened to the podcast you linked to and I guess I'm not really seeing the issue.  I think you might be jumping to some conclusions about what Butler was saying.  First, the host (non-lds) asks if it's every member's "desire to arrive at the celestial kingdom...so that they are able to be a god of their own planet", and Butler replies that while that idea can make a good play (alluding to the Book of Mormon musical), it's not very accurate.  And I agree with him, because I don't know any members personally whose goal is to get their own planet and who are active in the church so that that can happen. 

Creating you own planet may not be the goal but godhood is

While I agree with you, by sidestepping the asked question, Butler left the false impression that planet creation/ownership are not part of LDS beliefs once Godhood is attained.

While we may believe that is what will happen eons from now through the grace of Christ and by becoming joint-heirs with Him, getting our own planet isn't anyone's focus.  

Of course it isn't a focus but it is or at least it used to be part of our doctrine.

Beyond that, Butler doesn't deny that while we might each get our own worlds, that's interpretation of doctrine but not anything that has been revealed specifically.  He remarks that it's an implication of what eternal life is (eternal life means the kind of life that God lives, so that could imply that we will be doing what God does) but there is a lot of space between implication and actual.  He says that we go to far when we say that we know what it looks like to have the kind of life God has, for certain, though he acknowledges that in the past many leaders and prophets have fleshed out those doctrines.

He doesn't confirm nor deny and that's the problem...he left a false impression that it is not pat of LDS believes

So, again, what has changed is that as a church we are less willing to take implications and extrapolations as doctrinal fact.  Butler doesn't deny any doctrine, but he does push back against some interpretations of doctrine that have been popular in the past.

He misrepresented and left a false impression.  He could have simply explained that Yes, planet creation is what God's do...but he instead chose to skirt the question.

 

 

[Craig Speechly]

2 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

I'm not sure that the OP has presented enough citations to make the assumption that he has.

Yes, he has a bunch of quotes from the 1960s and 1970s about the whole "populate other worlds in eternity" concept.  But he's provided as many citations from before 1960 as he has for after 1990.  Without a deeper dive into a review of the literature, it appears that the Church of the 1960s and 1970s was the historical anomaly, not the Church of the 21st century.

I'm not claiming that the idea was never taught before 1960, nor am I even claiming that it wasn't taught extensively before then.  I'm just pointing out that the citations provided by the OP do not establish in which time period the actual anomaly occurs.  I'd love to read more about how the idea has evolved over the last 150 years, so I'm more than open to reading a more thorough (and preferably less biased) treatment of the question.    

Thank you.  You've confirmed one of my points.  The church has moved away from this once cherished doctrine

[Craig Speechly]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Apparently that is what happens when you rip stuff off from antimormon sites without giving them credit, which is where all good and faithful Saints go to get their information…

https://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets

Excuse me?  Feeling testie today? Are you suggesting that these quotes are anti mormon?  Spencer W. Kimball would certainly disagree.

For the record, In preparing my OP, I did a deep search in TheChurchofJesusChrist.org but as you know the church has scrubbed virtually everything pre-1975.  My google search provided the above quotes.  They are not anti-mormon and I did cited every original source.

So whats your point exactly?  Some of the very best scholarship on Mormonism in the last 50 years has come from less flattering mormon sites.  Please attack the quotes if you will but not the collator of  the quotes. Seems petty.

Edited April 22, 2024 by Craig Speechly

[Peacefully]

6 hours ago, blackstrap said:

Is the alternative spending eternity strumming on a harp while lounging on a cloud ? 

It grew old really fast for Captain Stormfield, lol. 

[Teancum]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We still believe that being exalted entails being a god and having spirit children. 

Yes ok.

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 

The 'having your own world' interpretation has changed some, and I don't doubt that some find that annoying or just plain wrong or troubling.  

Sure. 

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I read some of the journal entries of polygamist wives when polygamy ended and they are heartbreaking with how much pain that change in understanding caused.  I know of members that struggled mightily when blacks were allowed to be ordained and enter the temple.  I know of women right now who struggle with the implications of the changes in garment length over the decades and what that means to them today.

I agree. I am sure that it was a difficult transition especially for those who heard the 19th century leaders teach that plural marriage would never be done away with and that it was necessary for exaltation.  Then suddenly...poof...it wasn't.

 

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not trying to make light of the repercussions of such changes, only to illustrate that they have always happened and that people in your era in regards to this teaching are in very good company. 

Yes ok.  But can you understand why quite frankly, I find LDS leaders useless in trying to understand true doctrine.  We were taught that having prophets and apostles meant something. We emphasized, as a missionary, how unique Mormonism was because we had the truth and God directed his prophets just like Moses or Peter and so on.  We taught this to our investigators.  But really things are so fluid and things that actually were taught as doctrine and now relegated to speculation and such and really are not, or were not doctrine. Plural Marriage, the priesthood ban, becoming gods and creating worlds, the list goes on and on and on.

 

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I also want to point out that while others have been in your shoes, you've been in my shoes as well, and so you should be able to understand where I'm coming from.

Honestly the church you believe in looks very little like the one I was taught to believe in.  But I do understand your view point.  But I was not taught that the LDS leaders saw things so darkly.  Benson's 14 fundamentals of a prophet was pretty much how we were taught to view the LDS leadership.

 

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm guessing that you never felt it was a big deal that some people lived in a world were polygamy was taught to be the new and everlasting covenant and then had to rearrange their thinking (and sometimes their lives) on that issue when it ended in 1890, for example.  You lived in a time when the church approached that topic differently, and so it's likely that you viewed it much much differently than those who grew up in living polygamy, and then having it end, viewed that change.

No actually as I explored that topic I understood that the change made was dramatic and could sym[athize how some groups rejected the abandonment of plural marriage.  I attended school with some kids from polygamist families and had one friend from such a family.

 

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If that's true, then you can understand why I don't really see it as a big deal that you lived in a world where being exalted was taught slightly differently than it is now.

I was actually quite fine initially with modifying my thoughts on exaltation from the mid 90s to the 2010 or so.  But when I realized that the nothing is constant and LDS leaders get a lot wrong, well you know the rest of the story.

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If--to use a another example of why I don't think this change in focus is that noteworthy--the change in the doctrine of sealings didn't cause me to question my testimony, why would this change be any different?  If the church is true when the changing understanding of doctrine happens to someone else, then it's still true when it happens to me.

For the frequent and migrations and modifications on key doctrinal issues demonstrates to me the church most certainly is not any more true than any other man made religion or philosophy.  

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

They are not anti-mormon and I did cited every original source

Don’t you mean MRM cited every original source?

Plagiarism includes using someone else’s work and acting as if it’s your own, even when that work is not original, but just collecting it all together. 
 

I never said the quotes were anti Mormon.  I said the site was. 

Edited April 22, 2024 by Calm

[webbles]

6 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

For the record, In preparing my OP, I did a deep search in TheChurchofJesusChrist.org but as you know the church has scrubbed virtually everything pre-1975.  My google search provided the above quotes.  They are not anti-mormon and I did cited every original source.

Since the church's website didn't exist until long after 1975, it is really weird to say that the church "scrubbed virtually everything pre-1975".  It is hard to scrub stuff that was never there in the first place.

[bluebell]

21 minutes ago, Craig Speechly said:

The internet and social media have clearly had an impact on what leadership choose to speak about publicly, their comments often have consequences.

Definitely.  

Quote

While I agree with you, by sidestepping the asked question, Butler left the false impression that planet creation/ownership are not part of LDS beliefs once Godhood is attained.

He didn't sidestep the question at all though, he answered it.  Planet creation/ownership are not a part of LDS beliefs once Godhood is ordained.  Or rather, they aren't a part of latter-day saint doctrine.  Latter-day saints themselves are free to believe in it or not.

Quote

Of course it isn't a focus but it is or at least it used to be part of our doctrine.

Yes, it used to be taught as doctrine. That understanding has evolved. 

Quote

He doesn't confirm nor deny and that's the problem...he left a false impression that it is not pat of LDS believes

It says it's not a part of church doctrine, even though it might be true.  How is him saying that a problem?  I'm not seeing it.

Quote

He misrepresented and left a false impression.  He could have simply explained that Yes, planet creation is what God's do...but he instead chose to skirt the question.

He didn't misrepresent anything at all.  If he had answered "yes", that would have been a misrepresentation of our current understanding of that doctrine.