Church Offers Resources Re: Faith Crisis Issues

[ksfisher]

19 hours ago, Analytics said:

To be clear, the vast majority of of my ward members and youth leaders were wonderful people that i greatly respect, and I did in fact feel tremendous love from them. And if anything, they went out of there way to be extra kind to me to make up for me lacking the blessings of the priesthood at home. I may have felt a bit of pity. But I always felt loved.

And, of course, my future was wide open so that even though I couldn't be sealed to my own parents, I could hopefully find a lovely young lady to take to the temple and start my own eternal family without my parents, and of course there was always the possibility of my own parents finally getting their act together someday.

It reminds me of a particular Sunday school class on Father's day when I was about 14. The teacher decided to use the second half of the class to have everybody bear their testimony about their father. There were about 20 girls and boys in the class. Very quickly the checklist of what you should say about your dad developed: bearing your testimony there meant saying how much you loved your dad, how thankful you were that he taught you the truthfulness of the Church, how thankful you were that you had the priesthood in your home, how thankful you were to be sealed as a family. Everybody said almost the exact same thing, and those things were what it was all about. I remember one guy who happened to be a jock wanted to shake it up, and added to the standard checklist that he was also thankful for his dad teaching him about sportsmanship. 

So when it was my turn, what in the heck was I supposed to say? How the heck was I supposed to feel about this?

Thank you for your response.  I understand how you could feel the way you do.

Context for my response: my parents were divorced when I was 1.  My mother remarried when I was 8, but to a man who was excommunicated.

At the time it was unusual for a child not to have both parents at home.  However, the only time I found this awkward was a day at kindergarten when the teacher asked us to draw a picture of what our father did at work.  As we were living with my grandparents I asked if I could draw what my grandfather did.

Being asked to share of testimony about your father in a class sounds awkward.  I'm not sure what I would have done.  That definitely sounds like something the teacher shouldn't have done.  The church, just like the world, is full of people who do stupid things.  Sometimes I'm one of them.

 

19 hours ago, Analytics said:

To be clear, I was never explicitly taught that not being sealed "is a terrible thing." But I was taught that being sealed was an incredibly important thing. A good thing. A very good thing. I vital thing. 

And it was a blessing that everybody around me had, but I didn't.

That was my impression. Was I wrong? How did you deal with it? Did you feel you were missing out on something important by not being sealed?   

Being sealed is an important thing.  I did feel different than those around me who came from "ideal" families.  But I think that was a self imposed feeling on my part, not because of how others looked at or treated me.  As I said, I never felt anything but love and support from teachers and leaders in church.

How do I feel about not being sealed to my parents?  It's actually not something that I worry about, growing up or now.  We believe in a god who is just and merciful.  We believe in a god who will wipe all tears from our eyes.  We believe in a god who's ultimate goal is to find the place in eternity where we will be the happiest. 

I've never missed being sealed to my parents because the blessings that are derived from that sealing are not something that are fully realized in this life.  Being sealed to my wife and children is a nice feeling now, but the blessings that will come from that sealing are not fully realized yet.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 1/8/2024 at 10:50 AM, Meadowchik said:

Another possibility is that the things you say the church uniquely offers are just constructs of men.

Glad you are figuring this out.

What else could they be? The constructs of Martians?

Kolobians?

We teach that God himself is a human, glorified, who created all things, so yes, of course all the church teaches is also created by humanity in one way or another.

It's just a different way of seeing it all, but all the beliefs are all the same.

His son overcame all the evil that mankind could throw at him, so we could know that we also can overcome it.

Emulating Him? Now that's the tough part.

Simple idea, but never easy.

Honest.

It helped me enormously to see it this way.

"Supernatural" disappears.

Edited January 11, 2024 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Simple idea, but never easy.

Except maybe it is…if we can just get our heads and hearts to accept that it is…

Quote

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

 

[ksfisher]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Simple idea, but never easy.

 

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Except maybe it is…if we can just get our heads and hearts to accept that it is…

Long term living the gospel is the easiest.  Problem is, that in this life on this world we are geared to short term thinking.  Knee jerk reactions, survivalist, me first thinking.  In that sense we're really not that much different than the primates that we share so many of our genes with.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

 

Long term living the gospel is the easiest.  Problem is, that in this life on this world we are geared to short term thinking.  Knee jerk reactions, survivalist, me first thinking.  In that sense we're really not that much different than the primates that we share so many of our genes with.

And so we go full circle.

The real challenge is overcoming THE WORLD, that cosmic chain of apparent causation, until we find the REAL cause/ purpose of life.  It's not the primates, and it IS the primates.

God becomes the filter through which we see all things, because He is in us from the beginning. We are the images of God AND primates.

We see first in that dark mirror, our own human-primate image. But where is the Ubermensh, the image something tells us is what we are SUPPOSED to be seeing?  The same hoped- for image that even deniers can see that should be there?

THAT is Nietzsche, trying to overcome the world, the human without the Christ.  But he wasn't fully wrong.

The Christ image must fully replace what we see.

"I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me" - Phillipians 4:13

"I've been cheated- been mistreated. When will I be loved??"

But slowly that image in the mirror changes. It happens as we overcome how we see ourselves.

"But then, we will see face to face"

When is "THEN"?

It's up to us.

As you serve, the faces becomes those you serve, but then they start blending into One.

I suppose that is the "THEN".

What a wonderful teaching, that gives us a Human God!

Edited January 11, 2024 by mfbukowski

[ksfisher]

19 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

"I've been cheated- been mistreated. When will I be loved??"

And another +1 for quoting Linda Ronstadt/Phil Everly.

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

And another +1 for quoting Linda Ronstadt/Phil Everly.

OMGosh.

Everly Bros.

For Everly in my memories. 

[mfbukowski]

49 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

And another +1 for quoting Linda Ronstadt/Phil Everly.

Actually, I looked up the lyrics to "Wake up Little Susie" and Phil did not write the lyrics, at least.

BUT how times have changed!

"Wake up, little Susie, wake up
Wake up, little Susie, wake up

We've both been sound asleep, wake up, little Susie, and weep
The movie's over, it's four o'clock, and we're in trouble deep

Wake up little Susie
Wake up little Susie

Well, what are we gonna tell your mama?
What are we gonna tell your pa?
What are we gonna tell our friends
When they say, "Ooh la la!"

Wake up, little Susie
Wake up, little Susie

Well, I told your mama that you'd be in by ten
Well, Susie, baby looks like we goofed again

Wake up, little Susie
Wake up, little Susie
We gotta go home

Wake up, little Susie, wake up
Wake up, little Susie, wake up

The movie wasn't so hot
It didn't have much of a plot
We fell asleep
Our goose is cooked
Our reputation is shot"

 

First of all, the lyrics presume this was a "drive-in movie", or they don't make sense

 

Can we even imagine today's high school reputations with friends being "shot" because a couple MIGHT have "gone all the way"?

Edited January 11, 2024 by mfbukowski

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Except maybe it is…if we can just get our heads and hearts to accept that it is…

 

 

2 hours ago, ksfisher said:

 

Long term living the gospel is the easiest.  Problem is, that in this life on this world we are geared to short term thinking.  Knee jerk reactions, survivalist, me first thinking.  In that sense we're really not that much different than the primates that we share so many of our genes with.

I don’t know that living the gospel is easy. A lot of times in the scriptures we see people’s lives get a lot harder as they follow God.

This was shared on the Come, Follow Me blog:

“Something has stuck in my mind since my husband brought up to me the other night. He read the first part of 1 Nephi 2:1 to me. 

Context, this is after Lehi sought out the Lord, saw a vision, and prophesied to the Jews.

The Lord says, “Blessed art thou Lehi, because of the things which thou hast done; and because thou hast been faithful….”

My husband paused there and said, “wouldn’t you feel so good if God said that to you. I can just imagine leaning in to hear what is going to come next. And what does God say?”

“…Because thou hast been faithful, behold, they seek to take away thy life.”

My husband continued, “And then, he is told to leave his house and his wealth and go live in a tent in the wilderness. Not exactly what you would expect to hear next. When he goes, his family experiences heartache, starvation, death and division.

“His life became harder in almost every way. And yet, God was with him.”

Not all blessings come in perfectly wrapped boxes.

Like when “other little ships” followed Christ into the Sea of Galilee, and He lead them directly into a storm (Mark 4:36). A storm they wouldn’t have been in danger of if had stayed on land and not followed Christ. HOWEVER, because they followed Him, they also witnessed a miracle of Christ calming the storm. 

Lehi witnessed miracles as well. A Liahona by his tent door. His sons getting the plates and seeing an angel. Their wives being able to nurse while eating raw meat. Seeing visions. Being saved from destruction and coming to the promised land. And most of all, the miracle of creating a closer relationship with his Creator and loving Father.

The truth is, just because Christ’s YOKE is easy, doesn’t mean our LIVES will be easy. 

Heavy burdens will still come our way, despite or possibly BECAUSE of our faith. Crosses will still be placed before us. 

Christ does not eliminate our heavy burdens, but instead gives us the POWER to lift them.

Christ makes unbearable crosses bearable, and then asks us to take it up and walk. 

Choose to follow Christ. 
No matter the storms that follow—
And wait for miracles. 
For Christ has overcome the storms. 
And will help you do the same.”

 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Actually, I looked up the lyrics and Phil did not write the lyrics, at least.

Apple music credits Phil Everly as the songwriter on the Linda Ronstadt version.

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don’t know that living the gospel is easy. A lot of times in the scriptures we see people’s lives get a lot harder as they follow God.

I'm talking about if everyone was living it. No greed, no corruption, no violence, no substance abuse.  The gospel is the roadmap to human happiness.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

don’t know that living the gospel is easy.

I have yet to experience the mind/heart shift that is able to see it that way, though for me it does feel easier to have a believing paradigm.  I have yet to try and give it all to Christ and take up his yoke instead, too much of a control freak and too much anxiety about the unknown.  I like to be able to predict life.

Maybe some day I will get to that point.  I would like to discuss this with someone who not only believes they have achieved this, but also I believe they have achieved this and not a warped version of not caring about others at all rather than true forgiveness.

Quote

all you who are weary and burdened

My interpretation of this verse is it is less about what is happening and more about how we understand the why it is happening.  If we trust in God’s purpose, major energy expenditures for fear and anxiety can drop way down.  His way is also obeying him when he says forgive.  Stopping the replays, the what ifs, the pain revisited, the anger….that can be a very heavy burden and it’s not particularly useful.

Quote

 

Christ does not eliminate our heavy burdens, but instead gives us the POWER to lift them.

Christ makes unbearable crosses bearable, and then asks us to take it up and walk. 

And this is likely the biggest fear I have for dumping my burden in his lamp…that he sees me as capable of carrying a bigger cross than I do and I won’t actually be ready for it at all….all foolishness, but pretty deeply ingrained fears.

Edited January 11, 2024 by Calm

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Long term living the gospel is the easiest. 

Not in my experience.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Apple music credits Phil Everly as the songwriter on the Linda Ronstadt version.

Hmm. Thanks.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Not in my experience.

It's climbing the mountain, but the higher you get, the flatter the climb becomes.

I hear.  

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

It's climbing the mountain, but the higher you get, the flatter the climb becomes.

I hear.  

 

I’m guessing you haven’t climbed many mountains. 😂😜

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

It's climbing the mountain, but the higher you get, the flatter the climb becomes.

I hear.  

 

I think the person who told you that has confused mountains and plateaus.

[mfbukowski]

Error
 

Edited January 12, 2024 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I think the person who told you that has confused mountains and plateaus.

 

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I’m guessing you haven’t climbed many mountains. 😂😜

I was speaking meta-5-ically

That is one step beyond meta4.

I promise that as you change your heart, that mountain does flatten out.

Living without dope beats living with it.

See Isaiah Berlin's stuff.

Positive and Negative Liberty

When you make your goals the rules you accept for yourself. 

Self Determination:

BECOMING what you want to be AND overcoming the natural human.

Sound familiar?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/

"Positive and Negative Liberty

First published Thu Feb 27, 2003; substantive revision Fri Nov 19, 2021

Negative liberty is the absence of obstacles, barriers or constraints. One has negative liberty to the extent that actions are available to one in this negative sense. Positive liberty is the possibility of acting — or the fact of acting — in such a way as to take control of one’s life and realize one’s fundamental purposes. While negative liberty is usually attributed to individual agents, positive liberty is sometimes attributed to collectivities, or to individuals considered primarily as members of given collectivities.

The idea of distinguishing between a negative and a positive sense of the term ‘liberty’ goes back at least to Kant, and was examined and defended in depth by Isaiah Berlin in the 1950s and ’60s. Discussions about positive and negative liberty normally take place within the context of political and social philosophy. They are distinct from, though sometimes related to, philosophical discussions about free will. Work on the nature of positive liberty often overlaps, however, with work on the nature of autonomy."

Edited January 12, 2024 by mfbukowski

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I promise that as you change your heart, that mountain does flatten out.

I believed this for many years. It never happened.

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Living without dope beats living with it.

I would gladly get rid of my medication if the cause for taking it wasn’t driving me to despair. As it is living without “dope” emphatically is not better than living with it.

I am planning to repeat an attempt to get off them again in a few months and see if I can endure without them. It is not the addiction that drives me back. Withdrawal is horrible but endurable. It is going back to the dark places I lived in that scares me. Maybe they won’t be there this time. I doubt it though.

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Self Determination:

BECOMING what you want to be AND overcoming the natural human.

Sound familiar?

What I want to be I probably can’t have. The things I want and could have that raise me up are largely forbidden.

I appreciate you trying to help though. It is very kind of you.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Withdrawal is horrible but endurable. It is going back to the dark places I lived in that scares me.

It is not weakness to recognize one’s actual needs and it’s not strength and willpower to not accept God’s blessing mankind with medical advancement to make up for the world’s fallen nature, but foolishness and ingratitude imo. 
 

[Meadowchik]

On 1/11/2024 at 8:22 AM, mfbukowski said:

Glad you are figuring this out.

What else could they be? The constructs of Martians?

Kolobians?

We teach that God himself is a human, glorified, who created all things, so yes, of course all the church teaches is also created by humanity in one way or another.

It's just a different way of seeing it all, but all the beliefs are all the same.

His son overcame all the evil that mankind could throw at him, so we could know that we also can overcome it.

Emulating Him? Now that's the tough part.

Simple idea, but never easy.

Honest.

It helped me enormously to see it this way.

"Supernatural" disappears.

"Just constructs of men" obviously means just men and not God. 

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

It is not weakness to recognize one’s actual needs and it’s not strength and willpower to not accept God’s blessing mankind with medical advancement to make up for the world’s fallen nature, but foolishness and ingratitude imo. 
 

Totally agree with the caveat that it may be even simpler: it's not weakness to accept medical advancement, period.

I have an anecdote: I have been more keyed into my body's hormones and have noticed one day every four weeks I feel particularly low. It seems to have gotten worse to the point of being in distress. It's terrible and shocking how much the body itself can govern feeling. 

I am fortunate that it is very regular and therefore I can predict it and prepare myself. But there other types of issues people have which are beyond one's control. Some are not as manageable. 

In short, that's me saying that if a pretty common bodily hormone process can be this disruptive, I can imagine that there are plenty of other interactions between mind, body, and world which can be difficult indeed and moreso.

Thank goodness for medicine, for growing knowledge and for more understanding. To use a prophet-word, it's marvelous and shouldn't be taken for granted.

Edited January 12, 2024 by Meadowchik

[Teancum]

On 1/2/2024 at 2:26 PM, smac97 said:

SL Tribune:

Cool.

Here are the topics in the "Seeking Answers to Questions" resource:

There is some really good counsel in these materials.  A sampling:

• "Center Your Life on Jesus Christ" is really important.  We ought not live by, and - when needed - defend the Restored Gospel out of a sense of mere tribalism or conforming to familial/social expectations, but rather because "{f}aith in Jesus Christ is vital to our pursuit of answers to life’s most challenging questions."
• "We often think of faith as a strong belief. But faith is more than belief. It involves trust, confidence, and loyalty. When we have challenging questions or concerns, we can always turn to Jesus Christ."  "{T}rust, confidence and loyalty."  Yep.  
• "Jesus Christ is the sure foundation for our faith. In our daily lives, we place our faith in many people and institutions. These include family members, friends, governments, and employers. But Jesus Christ is the only person we can fully trust with our hope for peace and salvation."  The mistakes and flaws of Latter-day Saints and their leaders are sometimes given too much weight in deliberating the divinity of the Restored Gospel.  
• "God’s plan of salvation provides perspective. Many of our questions look different when we keep Heavenly Father’s plan in view. 'Because of our knowledge of this plan,' taught President Dallin H. Oaks, 'we start with different assumptions than those who do not share our knowledge. As a result, we reach different conclusions on many important subjects.'  Examining our questions with the plan of salvation in view can help us see our concerns with an eternal perspective."  I have discovered this in greater measures as I get older.  The presuppositions we bring to the table often end up heavily influencing the conclusions we take away.
• "There are primary and secondary questions. Sometimes we have questions or concerns related to historical events, Church teachings and policies, or human failures. Finding peace with such questions deserves our honest effort. But it’s important to distinguish core gospel truths from things that aren’t as essential.  Joseph Smith taught that 'all other things are only appendages' to the truths surrounding the Savior’s saving mission."  This is an important one for me.  I think too many of us are focusing on tangential "secondary" questions and then "working back" from them to reach conclusions of doubt and a loss of faith.  
• The entire "Be Patient with Yourself and with Others" section is worth a read, and several others beyond it.  It summarizes how we need to be "patient with yourself," "with Church members," "with those who want to help," "with Church leaders," and "with the Lord's timing."
• The "Recognize That Revelation is a Process" section is excellent.  "Remember that revelation usually starts with questions." "Recognize that revelation comes line upon line." "Remember that God speaks to us according to our understanding." "Be faithful and believe."  "Remember that all good comes from God." "Know that obtaining revelation can be a struggle." "Continue to seek revelation."
• I am very happy with the "Consult Reliable Sources" section.  "Evaluate the reliability of sources." "Learn to recognize bias."  "Corroborate what you learn." "Distinguish facts from interpretation." "Become familiar with Church resources."  "Seek the guidance of the Holy Ghost."
• The "Work to Understand the Past" section is great.  "Recognize the limits of our knowledge." "Expect change." "Place things in context." "Remember that humans make mistakes." "Watch for suspect interpretations."

Here are the topics in the "Helping Others with Questions" resource: 

Again, some really useful stuff here.  Some excerpts:

• "When someone close to you shares their questions or concerns about the Church, it’s normal to feel anxious or worried. Try to set aside these emotions and respond with kindness and compassion. You may not fully understand the other person’s experience, but you can follow Jesus Christ’s example and always show love."
• "Sometimes people hesitate to share their struggles because they fear they might lose their relationships with those who are close to them. If someone reaches out to you, they’re looking for support. Respond with love, even if you don’t know what to do or say. Look for ways to show compassion and kindness, even when they make choices you do not agree with."
• "Preserve your relationship. It is more important to cultivate a relationship of love and trust than to provide quick answers. A good goal may be just to keep the conversation going. Maintaining your relationship while keeping your covenants is the best way to continue having a positive influence."
• "Love them without compromise. When someone we love decides to believe differently than we do or makes decisions we don’t understand, we should respect their agency and continue to love them. We can do this without abandoning our own deeply held beliefs. President M. Russell Ballard taught: 'We can love one another without compromising personal divine ideals. And we can speak of those ideals without marginalizing others.'"
• "Seek first to understand. We often think we know how to resolve others’ concerns. We want to just answer their questions and tell them to stop worrying. This impulse is often centered on us rather than on their needs. Spend time listening to the story of how they arrived where they are today."
• "Acknowledge their experience. Even though we may not understand or agree with another’s concerns, we can acknowledge their sincerity and the pain they might be feeling. In an effort to show empathy, we sometimes draw comparisons between their experiences and our own. It’s important to remember that everyone’s experience is different."
• "Avoid being dismissive or judgmental. By the time a friend or loved one has decided to talk to you about their questions, they have most likely spent time privately researching and thinking. Be careful not to shut down the conversation by dismissing their questions or making judgments."
• "Keep your emotions in check. It’s normal to feel anxious or concerned when a loved one approaches you with questions about their faith. Try not to let these emotions get in the way of a productive conversation. If you feel angry, it’s probably better to ask if you can take a break and continue the conversation a little later."
• "Ask open-ended questions. Open-ended questions encourage others to share their thoughts, feelings, and experiences. They don’t necessarily have a right or wrong answer. For example: 'Can you tell me more?' 'How do you feel about that?' 'Can you help me understand?' 'What can I do to help?' Asking good questions shows that you care and will help you avoid misunderstanding."
• "Continue cultivating your testimony. It’s important to keep doing the things that helped you build your testimony of the gospel. These could include reading the scriptures, praying, partaking of the sacrament, worshipping in the temple, and serving others."
• "Become better informed. You don’t need to be an expert on an issue to be a good supporter. But it can be very positive to learn about a topic you don’t have context for. Pursue a thoughtful study of the Church’s doctrine and history."
• "Be a safe source for discussion. When a friend or family member brings their questions to you, they probably aren’t looking for someone to fix a problem but rather a loved one who is willing to walk beside them on their journey."

Back to the article:

Further to the comment from Elder Uchtdorf, there are some "difficult questions" that may create anger, a sense of betrayal, etc.  We need to address these responses as well.

Good stuff.  We need to be clear-eyed about what is going on today.

This has long seemed axiomatic to me, but I guess it's not that way for everyone.

Yep.

Cool!  I did not know about this class.

Fair enough.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Trying to get back to the original topic of this thread (which seems to have diverted off into LBGT issues and whether or not the church has answers for people who don't fit the Church requirement of a heterosexual norm for their sex and emotional intimate relationship), this seems like a well meaning effort though likely doomed to failure over the long term.  Ithink if believers approach non believers this way more will find their own testimony challenges. It is inevitable IMO. But that is just my opinion.

My main criticism of the effort are two fold.  First it make a priori assumptions of truth claims.  I guess that is to be expected.  Second I think the more recent ideas of primary and secondary issues specious.  Who gets to decide what is primary and secondary? And so called "secondary" issues certainly have bearing on what the church wants one to believe are the primary issues.  They bear strongly on the credibility of the founder of Mormonism as well as the reliability of its leaders as givers of truth.

 

And I guess I would add a third. Who decides what are reliable sources?  Of course the church provided resources are likely considered the most reliable but in my experience they can be some of the least objective sources.  

Anyway good luck with all of this.  The church needs it.

[Teancum]

14 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It's climbing the mountain, but the higher you get, the flatter the climb becomes.

I hear.  

 

Only when you get to the top.