Musical sacrament meeting?

[Rain]

Some wards have had sacrament meetings where a person goes up, tells a favorite song and something about the song and then the ward sings it.  You just go up if you feel inspired to like you would with testimony meeting.

I thought I heard a letter came out discouraging wards in doing this. Anyone know if that exists or if it's my imagination?

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Rain said:

Some wards have had sacrament meetings where a person goes up, tells a favorite song and something about the song and then the ward sings it.  You just go up if you feel inspired to like you would with testimony meeting.

I thought I heard a letter came out discouraging wards in doing this. Anyone know if that exists or if it's my imagination?

Me too.  Peter says that is what they did this Christmas.  I was thinking looking for it as we discussed it here I am sure…and the promptly forgot.

[Calm]

I couldn’t find it on our site, so I went General google and found two threads on them from 2007 and 2008, so if there is a letter it might be around ten or more years old.

https://www.sixteensmallstones.org/a-hymn-testimony-meeting/

Can’t find anything referring to it, but certain there was one.

Edited December 27, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Here is a discussion that relates to it, haven’t read it all to see if it refers to a letter.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60261-boring-sacrament-meeting-revisited/

 

[Calm]

Rongo for the win…sort of
 

Quote

There has been counsel from Salt Lake that specifically instructed not to hold the type of sacrament meeting Jana Reiss described. When I was newly called as a bishop (Fall of 2007), none of the speakers showed up one Sunday. The congregation had just heard from all three of us the previous week, and while we could easily have spoken again on no notice, I didn't want to do that. So, I told the counselor conducting to do exactly what was described, except we were more strict about the criteria: members would briefly tell why a certain hymn was meaningful to them, and then we sang that hymn.

It was a wonderful meeting, and very much enjoyed by the members. I particularly remember my first counselor, a former atheist with a powerful conversion story, and the story he told. He is the only member in his family, and joined when he was 19. Shortly before serving his mission (which was strongly opposed by his family), his brother committed suicide. This was a devastating loss to the family, and especially to him, and while waiting in the chapel of the temple before an endowment session, he was feeling terrible ---- like he couldn't do this, and nothing had any meaning. He prayed and told God that he needed help to go on with the session and beyond. The woman playing the organ music instantly changed from the hymn she had been playing and began playing his brother's favorite song, a non-hymnal piece by Sebellius. As many of you probably know, the specific hymns allowed to be played in the temple are tightly regulated, and what this sister did was against protocol. But for my first counselor, it was a bolt out of heaven and a sign that God knew him, had heard him, and was with him. He told us that for this reason, the hymn in our hymnbook whose music was written by Sebellius has special meaning to him, and we sang it.

Shortly after that, the stake president told us in bishopric training that the area authority at their coordinating council meeting had said that there is a fad sweeping through the Church of sacrament meetings built around members giving a favorite hymn and then the congregation singing it. He said that the Brethren he reported to had made it crystal clear that no such meetings are to take place. The stake president said that he knew nobody in our stake would ever do this, but he just wanted to let us know. We three looked at each other with raised eyebrows. It was undeniably an extremely spiritual and uplifting meeting, but we never did anything like it again. We didn't have a need to.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/60261-boring-sacrament-meeting-revisited/?do=findComment&comment=1209233327

 

[Calm]

Found another discussion on Reddit from 5 years ago…

various names…

Hymn-imony

sacrament sing along

hymns by request 

worshipping the Lord through hyms

 

[Rain]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

Found another discussion on Reddit from 5 years ago…

various names…

Hymn-imony

sacrament sing along

hymns by request 

worshipping the Lord through hyms

 

Yes, I've found lots of discussions. 2007 seems to be the big year for it. I also found somewhere that you aren't supposed to change the general pattern of sacrament (came from 3rd or 4th person), but you can have multiple musical numbers so I'm not sure what all is intended there.

[pogi]

I am the ward music coordinator, and my ward just had this type of service just a few months ago at the request of the bishop.  So, if it is against the rules, it doesn't seem to be spelled out anywhere for bishops who did not hear the counsel in 2007.  

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

Some wards have had sacrament meetings where a person goes up, tells a favorite song and something about the song and then the ward sings it.  You just go up if you feel inspired to like you would with testimony meeting.

I thought I heard a letter came out discouraging wards in doing this. Anyone know if that exists or if it's my imagination?

Imagination.

😉

 

[mfbukowski]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

The woman playing the organ music instantly changed from the hymn she had been playing and began playing his brother's favorite song, a non-hymnal piece by Sebellius.

I simply CANNOT hear that song without crying my eyes out.

But there IS one in the hymnal, that is the one I have in mind.

Hymnal 124- Be still my soul.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/music/library/hymns/be-still-my-soul?lang=eng

1. . Be still, my soul: The Lord is on thy side;

   With patience bear thy cross of grief or pain.

   Leave to thy God to order and provide;

   In ev’ry change he faithful will remain.

   Be still, my soul: Thy best, thy heav’nly Friend

   Thru thorny ways leads to a joyful end.

2. 2. Be still, my soul: Thy God doth undertake

   To guide the future as he has the past.

   Thy hope, thy confidence let nothing shake;

   All now mysterious shall be bright at last.

   Be still, my soul: The waves and winds still know

   His voice who ruled them while he dwelt below.

3. 3. Be still, my soul: The hour is hast’ning on

   When we shall be forever with the Lord,

   When disappointment, grief, and fear are gone,

   Sorrow forgot, love’s purest joys restored.

   Be still, my soul: When change and tears are past,

   All safe and blessed we shall meet at last.

Edited December 27, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Rain]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am the ward music coordinator, and my ward just had this type of service just a few months ago at the request of the bishop.  So, if it is against the rules, it doesn't seem to be spelled out anywhere for bishops who did not hear the counsel in 2007.  

I've found this to be the case with a lot of things.  For example, I still have not seen anything about missionary costs NOT rising except on a closed Facebook group.  I've been out of the group for 2 years now so I don't know if the prices actually have increased to $500 yet or not.

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, Rain said:

Some wards have had sacrament meetings where a person goes up, tells a favorite song and something about the song and then the ward sings it.  You just go up if you feel inspired to like you would with testimony meeting.

I thought I heard a letter came out discouraging wards in doing this. Anyone know if that exists or if it's my imagination?

We did it a couple of months ago and my parents Ward did it for Christmas Eve. I’m not sure about a letter. It wouldn’t surprise me. 

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, Rain said:

I've found this to be the case with a lot of things.  For example, I still have not seen anything about missionary costs NOT rising except on a closed Facebook group.  I've been out of the group for 2 years now so I don't know if the prices actually have increased to $500 yet or not.

If it increased back to $500 they didn’t tell anyone. 

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

If it increased back to $500 they didn’t tell anyone. 

The who thing is weird to me.  They definitely emailed some bishops that for the time being the cost wasn't rising, but either they only emailed very few bishops or a ton of bishops didn't see it nor could they find it. So will they send out an email that it is now (when the time comes) raising to those that never got it wasn't raising?

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Rain said:

The who thing is weird to me.  They definitely emailed some bishops that for the time being the cost wasn't rising, but either they only emailed very few bishops or a ton of bishops didn't see it nor could they find it. So will they send out an email that it is now (when the time comes) raising to those that never got it wasn't raising?

It always surprises me how bad the church is at some basic stuff when they are so good at things that are a lot harder. 😂

[Pyreaux]

How much pull does a Bishop have in conducting their own meetings, theoretically as the Spirit dictates, before he gets called to repent? I just assumed meetings were only uniform was because it's just the general guidelines and these lay clergy with other jobs and families simply don't have the time or creativity (or inspirational leeway) to think outside the box. Or add some regional and cultural flavor every once and a while, so long as it's mostly orderly and reverent.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

The who[le] thing is weird to me.  They definitely emailed some bishops that for the time being the cost wasn't rising, but either they only emailed very few bishops or a ton of bishops didn't see it nor could they find it. So will they send out an email that it is now (when the time comes) raising to those that never got it wasn't raising?

Back in April of 2020, the church notified leaders that the increase in monthly charges to the ward missionary fund originally slated to begin July 2020 would be "delayed until further notice."

This was back during the COVID-19 pandemic - though it was also shortly after the Nielsen / Ensign Peak leak story first came out, so I think that could have played into the optics as well.

Here's the problem though: there were changes being made to the church's official notification system that year as well, and several of these notifications were lost. Many of the ones I remember not resurfacing were related to the use of Zoom for church meeting, but the postponement notification disappeared as well.

If you ask your ward clerk he should be able to verify that the church is only debiting $400 for each missionary account still. I don't know when they plan on raising the cost as previously planned, but I suspect they will handle it just as they did before - giving people a lengthy (read: 6-months minimum, but probably a full year) heads up about any pending increase.

 

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Rain said:

Some wards have had sacrament meetings where a person goes up, tells a favorite song and something about the song and then the ward sings it.  You just go up if you feel inspired to like you would with testimony meeting.

I thought I heard a letter came out discouraging wards in doing this. Anyone know if that exists or if it's my imagination?

I think any letters/instructions/correction would have likely come from the area level, not the First Presidency / Twelve.

I recall witnessing one such a meeting in New England about 15 years ago, and I think the ward was doing it once every three months or so.

[Rain]

25 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Back in April of 2020, the church notified leaders that the increase in monthly charges to the ward missionary fund originally slated to begin July 2020 would be "delayed until further notice."

This was back during the COVID-19 pandemic - though it was also shortly after the Nielsen / Ensign Peak leak story first came out, so I think that could have played into the optics as well.

Here's the problem though: there were changes being made to the church's official notification system that year as well, and several of these notifications were lost. Many of the ones I remember not resurfacing were related to the use of Zoom for church meeting, but the postponement notification disappeared as well.

If you ask your ward clerk he should be able to verify that the church is only debiting $400 for each missionary account still. I don't know when they plan on raising the cost as previously planned, but I suspect they will handle it just as they did before - giving people a lengthy (read: 6-months minimum, but probably a full year) heads up about any pending increase.

 

I was not aware of the notification change.  I just knew that many, many bishops didn't know about the postponement.  I would guess that 99% of the moms (over 10,000 members) in the missionary moms group didn't know about the postponement through their wards and only through the group.  So there are many who struggle with paying $500 and not finding out till their missionary comes home.  And that's still happening more than 2 years later.  I tell everyone I know who had missionaries going out. 

I did ask my ward clerk and also asked about donations.  Some ward clerks get that sent out monthly.  Some never notice that their ward missionaries are sitting well over their needed amount because of paying the extra $100 a month or donations form ward or family. 

[Calm]

52 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

just assumed meetings were only uniform was because it's just the general guidelines and these lay clergy with other jobs and families simply don't have the time or creativity (or inspirational leeway) to think outside the box.

From the stories I have heard, creativity is not encouraged much and most gets squelched. I think there is concern that some will take any leeway as permission to start to play with doctrinal issues.  And then there is the authority structure (stopping women leaders from sitting on the stand, for example).

There is the story of the German, iirc, ward that during the war, cut off from all communication with Salt Lake and other members, got a bit more inventive than desired and started adding more ‘respectful’ ceremonial aspects to the Sacrament. Iirc one item was a red and gold cloth to cover it as well as ornate candlesticks, but it has been awhile and I may be making up the details. 
 

There is also the desire to promote unity and not create a sense of imbalance between wealthy wards and not so wealthy, which contributes to using only pictures and possibly even frames available from Salt Lake to decorate our buildings. I don’t know the rules on the artificial flowers they have around. Carpet and furniture appear to be from a limited list. Depending on the year you can figure out what color carpet and seats a ward building will have as well as even the stain choices iirc. 

Edited December 27, 2023 by Calm

[Rain]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think any letters/instructions/correction would have likely come from the area level, not the First Presidency / Twelve.

I recall witnessing one such a meeting in New England about 15 years ago, and I think the ward was doing it once every three months or so.

The closest I have to something official and specifically about this that I have found in the last day has been at an area level, but that's not what my memory was from years ago.  But again, I never was sure my memory was correct on this one. 

[CV75]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

I couldn’t find it on our site, so I went General google and found two threads on them from 2007 and 2008, so if there is a letter it might be around ten or more years old.

https://www.sixteensmallstones.org/a-hymn-testimony-meeting/

Can’t find anything referring to it, but certain there was one.

From the link you provided: “We were encouraged to read one stanza of the hymn aloud and then the congregation would sing one or two of the other verses. To allow enough time for people to share, no more than two verses would be allowed.” And then the unfortunate subjective evaluation of the ward's meetings in general: "Often our meetings focus on doctrine, personal experiences, and teaching. This was a meeting where worship ruled. And it was a blessing."

From the Hymnbook: "...do not routinely shorten a hymn by singing just the first one or two verses. Singing the verses printed below the music is encouraged. Using the Hymnbook (churchofjesuschrist.org)"

 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Rain said:

The closest I have to something official and specifically about this that I have found in the last day has been at an area level, but that's not what my memory was from years ago.  But again, I never was sure my memory was correct on this one. 

Same here. It is so weird that I remember this being strongly discouraged from a central level. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, CV75 said:

From the link you provided: “We were encouraged to read one stanza of the hymn aloud and then the congregation would sing one or two of the other verses. To allow enough time for people to share, no more than two verses would be allowed.” And then the unfortunate subjective evaluation of the ward's meetings in general: "Often our meetings focus on doctrine, personal experiences, and teaching. This was a meeting where worship ruled. And it was a blessing."

From the Hymnbook: "...do not routinely shorten a hymn by singing just the first one or two verses. Singing the verses printed below the music is encouraged. Using the Hymnbook (churchofjesuschrist.org)"

 

It is not routine if it’s only done a couple of times a year at most. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

The closest I have to something official and specifically about this that I have found in the last day has been at an area level, but that's not what my memory was from years ago.  But again, I never was sure my memory was correct on this one. 

That's an area of memory I can relate to!