“Mormon” victory for Satan?

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Malc said:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/10/07/members-offend-jesus/

Since Pres Nelson, as a member of the Q12, made similar comments about using the correct name of the church in a talk in 1990, did the other leaders of the church not recognise the truth of his statements? Whey did it take until he became Prophet in 2018 for the change to be made?

The “I am a Mormon” campaign ran from 2010 to 2018 - no-one in church leadership, having been taught by Elder Nelson's 1990 talk, thought it was a bad idea?

Or did something else happen between 1990 and 2018 that made the change necessary? Perhaps halconero is correct in thinking that the benefit started to outweigh the cost. Perhaps some straw broke the camel's back.

President Nelson, in his April 1990 conference talk, referenced an even earlier comment about the church's name:

Quote

Years ago, its members were cautioned by the Brethren who wrote: “We feel that some may be misled by the too frequent use of the term ‘Mormon Church.’” (Member-Missionary Class—Instructor’s Guide, Salt Lake City: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1982, p. 2.) Before

He was called an apostle in 1984 so this was before his calling.  It looks like the church has been dealing with the term "Mormon Church" for a long time.

President Hinckley in the October 1990 conference referenced Elder Nelson's comments in the April 1990 conference in his talk "Mormon Should Mean "More Good""  - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1990/10/mormon-should-mean-more-good?lang=eng

Some interesting quotes:

Quote

Six months ago in our conference Elder Russell M. Nelson delivered an excellent address on the correct name of the Church. He quoted the words of the Lord Himself:

“Thus shall my church be called in the last days, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” (D&C 115:4.)

He then went on to discourse on the various elements of that name. I commend to you a rereading of his talk.

Quote

I suppose that regardless of our efforts, we may never convert the world to general use of the full and correct name of the Church. Because of the shortness of the word Mormon and the ease with which it is spoken and written, they will continue to call us the Mormons, the Mormon church, and so forth.

Quote

We may not be able to change the nickname, but we can make it shine with added luster.

Quote

The people of this Church, the people of this so-called Mormon church, have given generously of their resources to help those in need.

For me, looking at those talks back then, it feels like the apostles have been bothered about the usage of "Mormon Church" and tried various things to deal with it.  The problem wasn't the term "Mormon" referring to people, but the term "Mormon Church" and its replacement of the Lord's name.  President Nelson is just another attempt to fix the usage of the church's name.  He went for a wider change then just fixing the church's name, though.  By asking members to not refer to themselves as Mormons, it helps reinforce that we aren't members of the "Mormon Church".

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

So, it does bother you and you are not relaxed!

These were retained for historical purposes for Google historians.

Yep the church deep sixxed  it to make it go away and google archived it. You’d think the church world be proud of that video though. What better message than to tell your kids if they don’t have a temple recommend when mom/ dad die they don’t get any money.
 

Sounds like me way back when getting bribed with college money and a car to go on a mission. 
 

it isn’t about doing the “right thing” it is about looking like you are. We will even pay you to look like it. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by Diamondhands69
Typo

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Yep the church deep sixxed  it to make it go away and google archived it. You’d think the church world be proud of that video though. What better message than to tell your kids if they don’t have a temple recommend when mom/ dad die they don’t get any money.
 

Sounds like me way back when getting bribed with college money and a car to go on a mission. 
 

it isn’t about doing the “right thing” it is about looking like you are. We will even pay you to look like it. 

Apologies: it seems I provoked some unpleasant personal issues with what I considered to be tongue-in-cheek posts. 

Someone once pointed out that the $$$ I'm leaving my kids has been tithed already. I said, "That's what you think! Not one penny!" I was joking of course. They probably won't appreciate that 1/2 is going to charity and the rest equally split into trust funds for the grandchildren's education (including the trades and any small business start-up arising from that), and which if they don't use will go charity; and each child and each spouse gets the same amount as the grandchildren as a gift. I value the principle that we are responsible for own cars, missions, and tithing. I paid 1/2 my kids' undergrad college education just to make they had some skin in the game and were serious about it.

[Diamondhands69]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

Apologies: it seems I provoked some unpleasant personal issues with what I considered to be tongue-in-cheek posts. 

Someone once pointed out that the $$$ I'm leaving my kids has been tithed already. I said, "That's what you think! Not one penny!" I was joking of course. They probably won't appreciate that 1/2 is going to charity and the rest equally split into trust funds for the grandchildren's education (including the trades and any small business start-up arising from that), and which if they don't use will go charity; and each child and each spouse gets the same amount as the grandchildren as a gift. I value the principle that we are responsible for own cars, missions, and tithing. I paid 1/2 my kids' undergrad college education just to make they had some skin in the game and were serious about it.

No apologies needed I’m a big kid sometimes.. 

my story is hardly unique. I’m pretty sure we all know kids promised cars, college money etc if they went on a mission. I know a bunch of em. Many of em got a rug pull on the deal after they got home. 

[The Nehor]

Oh, it is this thread again.

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

No apologies needed I’m a big kid sometimes.. 

my story is hardly unique. I’m pretty sure we all know kids promised cars, college money etc if they went on a mission. I know a bunch of em. Many of em got a rug pull on the deal after they got home. 

I don't know any. Love the bait-and-switch, I guess thier parents repented LOL.

[randy]

On 12/13/2023 at 6:57 AM, Diamondhands69 said:

I know when the videos were made. If you search the churches YouTube channel they have a whole page of them there. I didn’t count but probably hundreds if I were to guess. One would think they would scrub all their websites to make sure the devil isn’t lurking in there but one doesn’t even need to expend any effort to find them. Someone got paid too much money to go this … or they used a bunch of senior missionaries for free. 

Ya might wanna take a look at the palms of your hands...your palm lines might be worn off with all that hand wringing you're doing....breathe.....relax....

[Diamondhands69]

1 hour ago, randy said:

Ya might wanna take a look at the palms of your hands...your palm lines might be worn off with all that hand wringing you're doing....breathe.....relax....

Do you have anything of value to add to the convo or is the personal insult all you have?

[randy]

3 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Do you have anything of value to add to the convo or is the personal insult all you have?

Just an observation....     You just seem cynical and so negative.    But, I do feel to owe you a sincere apology.  I did notice on another thread that you had or are having a struggle dealing with an issue involving the Temple Sealer who performed your sealing, so I can understand why you would be upset.  So, to that end I apologize.  But, as others have said, and I agree....your sealing is valid.....just let the other stuff go or it will eat you alive inside to the point where Satan will achieve a real victory over you.  Again, I apologize and I wish you well.

[Diamondhands69]

17 minutes ago, randy said:

Just an observation....     You just seem cynical and so negative.    But, I do feel to owe you a sincere apology.  I did notice on another thread that you had or are having a struggle dealing with an issue involving the Temple Sealer who performed your sealing, so I can understand why you would be upset.  So, to that end I apologize.  But, as others have said, and I agree....your sealing is valid.....just let the other stuff go or it will eat you alive inside to the point where Satan will achieve a real victory over you.  Again, I apologize and I wish you well.

No need to apologize, but I do appreciate / accept it. Thanks
 

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 12/13/2023 at 12:26 PM, Diamondhands69 said:

Sounds like me way back when getting bribed with college money and a car to go on a mission. 

14 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I’m pretty sure we all know kids promised cars, college money etc if they went on a mission. I know a bunch of em. Many of em got a rug pull on the deal after they got home. 

FYI, parents bribing kids to chose things parents want them to chose, is hardly a mission specific thing.  Or even an LDS specific thing.   There are umpteen parents out there right now, bribing their kids in all sorts of ways.  $100 for each A on the report card.  "I'll pay for college as long as you go [here] and study [this]."   "Dump that loser you're dating, and I'll pay for your summer trip to [wherever] with your friends."   Some are bribing their kids to join the Army, some are bribing their kids to stay out of the Army.  Often I can understand and respect the offer/bribe, sometimes I think it's a horrible and desperate attempt to manipulate and hold on to control at the expense of what's best for the kid.  Yeah, some parents basically offer the bribe as a lie, never intending to make good.  Again, not an LDS-specific thing, although I'm sure you can find some LDS parents who are jerks.

In the world of neurodiverse kiddos, an acquaintance of mine has a kid who was paralyzed with anxiety and fear about driving.  The parents tried everything to motivate their kid to take an acceptable risk and face the fear.  The thing that eventually worked: "Go through the McDonalds drive-through and let me buy us lunch, then park in the parking lot, and I'll give you a hundred bucks."  They tell me that was the push needed, and the rest of the year everything just fell into place, including the kid getting a job and driving to it every day.   I just heard today, the kid is off driving to work through the Colorado snow/ice storm.  Once kid survived the drive through, the fear and anxiety got replaced with a more normal path of slow growth in confidence and experience.  Bribe worked.

[Diamondhands69]

13 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

FYI, parents bribing kids to chose things parents want them to chose, is hardly a mission specific thing.  Or even an LDS specific thing.   There are umpteen parents out there right now, bribing their kids in all sorts of ways.  $100 for each A on the report card.  "I'll pay for college as long as you go [here] and study [this]."   "Dump that loser you're dating, and I'll pay for your summer trip to [wherever] with your friends."   Some are bribing their kids to join the Army, some are bribing their kids to stay out of the Army.  Often I can understand and respect the offer/bribe, sometimes I think it's a horrible and desperate attempt to manipulate and hold on to control at the expense of what's best for the kid.  Yeah, some parents basically offer the bribe as a lie, never intending to make good.  Again, not an LDS-specific thing, although I'm sure you can find some LDS parents who are jerks.

In the world of neurodiverse kiddos, an acquaintance of mine has a kid who was paralyzed with anxiety and fear about driving.  The parents tried everything to motivate their kid to take an acceptable risk and face the fear.  The thing that eventually worked: "Go through the McDonalds drive-through and let me buy us lunch, then park in the parking lot, and I'll give you a hundred bucks."  They tell me that was the push needed, and the rest of the year everything just fell into place, including the kid getting a job and driving to it every day.   I just heard today, the kid is off driving to work through the Colorado snow/ice storm.  Once kid survived the drive through, the fear and anxiety got replaced with a more normal path of slow growth in confidence and experience.  Bribe worked.

Are you saying Mormon parents shouldn’t be any better than anyone else? If so I respectfully disagree. There is zero justification to pay off kids to compel them to serve a mission if they wouldn’t have otherwise.
 

That right there is the removal of agency and Satan loves that. 

[webbles]

17 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Are you saying Mormon parents shouldn’t be any better than anyone else? If so I respectfully disagree. There is zero justification to pay off kids to compel them to serve a mission if they wouldn’t have otherwise.
 

That right there is the removal of agency and Satan loves that. 

Offering a kid a reward if they do something is "removal of agency"?  I think that is a little too much.  I offer my kids a treat if they do well, is that really a "removal of agency"?  I offer to help my kids pay their college if they go to college, is that really a "removal of agency"?  I don't think so.

[Stormin' Mormon]

10 minutes ago, webbles said:

Offering a kid a reward if they do something is "removal of agency"?  I think that is a little too much.  I offer my kids a treat if they do well, is that really a "removal of agency"?  I offer to help my kids pay their college if they go to college, is that really a "removal of agency"?  I don't think so.

Or the fact that Heavenly Father "bribes" His children with a celestial inheritance if they repent and follow the covenant path.  

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Are you saying Mormon parents shouldn’t be any better than anyone else?

Are you saying it's never a good/moral/just/positive thing to bribe your kids to do something?  If so I respectfully disagree.   There are several justifications to pay off kids with still-developing maturity and long-term decision brains, to do stuff they wouldn’t otherwise.  It's sort of the role of parents to urge kids to do the good things and avoid the bad things, and sweetening the pot with a bribe is one of the tools in a parent's toolbox.  Even an LDS parent's toolbox.

[Stormin' Mormon]

Father Lehi seemed to believe that such enticements were actually necessary for agency to even exist in the first place:

Quote

2 Nephi 2:16:  Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other.

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon

[Diamondhands69]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

Offering a kid a reward if they do something is "removal of agency"?  I think that is a little too much.  I offer my kids a treat if they do well, is that really a "removal of agency"?  I offer to help my kids pay their college if they go to college, is that really a "removal of agency"?  I don't think so.

My comment is directed at bribing a kid to go on a mission, nothing else so you can take down your strawman. 

[webbles]

5 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

My comment is directed at bribing a kid to go on a mission, nothing else so you can take down your strawman. 

But how is bribing a kid to go on a mission any different from bribing a kid to do well at school, to go to college, to get a job etc?  If the later aren't a "removal of agency" then how is the former?

[Diamondhands69]

5 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

Father Lehi seemed to believe that such enticements were actually necessary for agency to even exist in the first place:

 

Let’s say it is necessary to bribe a 18 year old male to go on a mission. No testimony and doesn’t gain one from the mission service. In fact every time he bore a “testimony” to an investigator he was lying about his testimony. He then baptized investigator into a church the missionary didn’t believe is true. 
 

is that an honorable use of bribery? One the church, parents and Jesus would br proud to share their testimony of? 
 

I bet not

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Are you saying Mormon parents shouldn’t be any better than anyone else? If so I respectfully disagree. There is zero justification to pay off kids to compel them to serve a mission if they wouldn’t have otherwise.
 

That right there is the removal of agency and Satan loves that. 

I don't think that bribing a kid to go on a mission is a great idea at all.  There are some things that kids need to do because they feel they should do it and not because they want a new car or something, and I think a mission is one of those things.

But, bribing doesn't remove agency.  That's not how agency works.

[Diamondhands69]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think that bribing a kid to go on a mission is a great idea at all.  
 

agreed

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

But, bribing doesn't remove agency.  That's not how agency works.

Sure it does. I know several guys who went only because of the payoff ( whatever it was mom and dad offered) and a couple who were threatened with being kicked out of the family. 

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

agreed

Sure it does. I know several guys who went only because of the payoff ( whatever it was mom and dad offered) and a couple who were threatened with being kicked out of the family. 

But as long as they had the choice then they used their agency to choose to go.  Why they decided to go doesn't impact their agency at all.  A bad choice, or a good choice, doesn't take away the existence of the choice. 

Agency just means the ability to act without being forced.  Unless they were physically forced onto the plane, their agency was intact.

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

is that an honorable use of bribery?

No it is not, and that's not what I was arguing. But bribery, or enticements, or artificially imposed consequences are not antithetical to the principle of agency.

[Diamondhands69]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

But as long as they had the choice then they used their agency to choose to go.  Why they decided to go doesn't impact their agency at all.  A bad choice, or a good choice, doesn't take away the existence of the choice. 

Agency just means the ability to act without being forced.  Unless they were physically forced onto the plane, their agency was intact.

Ok we can agree to disagree. So do you think it is an honorable thing to do for a parent or a bishop to encourage? Just to get the wayward man child  to obey and go experience his “best two years” ever? 
 

it’s a pretty crappy thing to do. I’d love to hear testimony of that program on a Sunday. It’s one of those things we all know happens but I have never heard a parent publicly admit to doing it. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[Calm]

3 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Are you saying it's never a good/moral/just/positive thing to bribe your kids to do something?  If so I respectfully disagree.   There are several justifications to pay off kids with still-developing maturity and long-term decision brains, to do stuff they wouldn’t otherwise.  It's sort of the role of parents to urge kids to do the good things and avoid the bad things, and sweetening the pot with a bribe is one of the tools in a parent's toolbox.  Even an LDS parent's toolbox.

We had just a few more days before my daughter started grade 7 and she was still adamant she would never test her own blood sugars (she had a dislike for needles that became a phobia for a time when she was diagnosed with diabetes earlier that month, on her birthday poor kid….though she got the most presents and biggest party when so many showed up at the hospital, she said it was her best birthday ever…except for the whole hospital thing).  We had lost all hope and I was desperately trying to figure out how to manage testing her (school wouldn’t allow me to stay in the room, even as a teacher’s aide).  In a dark moment, I offered her $100.  And paid up immediately too.  She could have made $1000 that day if she had only known.

The $100 offer pushed her to think of it in a new way.  Once she opened herself up to “maybe”, she had moved past the “never ever” roadblock and that was all that was needed for her, thank goodness.

Bribing doesn’t work that way every time, but when used that way, to open the person up to new possibilities of good things they had mentally/emotionally locked themselves out of for whatever reason, I don’t see it as immoral or detrimental. 
 

However, bribing for a mission is not something I would suggest doing.  Too many ways that can go wrong.  Promotes hiding their true feelings about it for one thing.

If the kid is wanting to go, but hesitant because of obstacles, I don’t see it as problematic helping to remove those and some might see that as bribing.  For example, if a kid is going to lose their scholarship if they go on a mission and a parent offers to cover that to remove a worry, that is different than making helping with college dependent on going on a mission.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Calm