“Mormon” victory for Satan?

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Ok we can agree to disagree. So do you think it is an honorable thing to do for a parent or a bishop to encourage? Just to get the wayward man child  to obey and go experience his “best two years” ever? 
 

it’s a pretty crappy thing to do. I’d love to hear testimony of that program on a Sunday. It’s one of those things we all know happens but I have never heard a parent publicly admit to doing it. 

Like I said in the post (that you responded too), I obviously don't think it's honorable or smart.  I think it's setting the kid up for failure and a lot of angst and anger later in life.  Plus it's a really crappy thing to do to the other missionaries in that kid's mission who are going to have to deal with him or her. 

It's stupid and wrong but it doesn't negate anyone's agency.   It doesn't have to negate agency to be stupid and wrong. 

[bluebell]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

We had just a few more days before my daughter started grade 7 and she was still adamant she would never test her own blood sugars (she had a dislike for needles that became a phobia for a time when she was diagnosed with diabetes earlier that month, on her birthday poor kid….though she got the most presents and biggest party when so many showed up at the hospital, she said it was her best birthday ever…except for the whole hospital thing).  We had lost all hope and I was desperately trying to figure out how to manage testing her (school wouldn’t allow me to stay in the room, even as a teacher’s aide).  In a dark moment, I offered her $100.  And paid up immediately too.  She could have made $1000 that day if she had only known.

The $100 offer pushed her to think of it in a new way.  Once she opened herself up to “maybe”, she had moved past the “never ever” roadblock and that was all that was needed for her, thank goodness.

Bribing doesn’t work that way every time, but when used that way, to open the person up to new possibilities of good things they had mentally/emotionally locked themselves out of for whatever reason, I don’t see it as immoral or detrimental. 

I bribe my kids with money to read books that I want them to read all the time.  It's a win/win.

[LoudmouthMormon]

4 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I know several guys who went only because of the payoff ( whatever it was mom and dad offered) and a couple who were threatened with being kicked out of the family. 

You know a couple of people who were threatened with being kicked out of the family if they didn’t go on a mission?
Holy crap. No matter what other disagreements I might have with you in this thread, you and I can lock arms against nonsense like that. What a disgusting abuse of parental stewardship!

And you’re sure they’re not just some kid with a chip on their shoulder, right?  I know probably half a dozen folks who received some “tough love“ from their parents, who blew the situation way out of proportion.

Variations of a theme like this:

“Mom just kicked me out of the house!”

”Not what I said. I told you that I was no longer going to be making your doctor’s appointments for you, you’re 18 and big enough to do it yourself, and if you don’t like it you can move out.”

I have either personally witnessed, or encountered online, probably a dozen stories like this. I’ve never heard of anyone threaten to kick their child out of the family unless they went on a mission. If that’s true, it’s horrible. But if the child is the one telling the story, I would take that story with a grain of salt.

Edited December 15, 2023 by LoudmouthMormon

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I have either personally witnessed, or encountered online, probably a dozen stories like this. I’ve never heard of anyone threaten to kick their child out of the family unless they went on a mission. If that’s true, it’s horrible. But if the child is the one telling the story, I would take that story with a grain of salt.

I agree with taking stories w / a grain of salt.

Here is something to consider: 

As for the mission/agency/bribing thing, I have been very open with my story over the years with friends from church, in priesthood meeting when the discussion goes there. Not often,  but anyone I have known in any of the wards I have been in knows my story. It actually surprised me how many have shared with me a similar thing that happened with them, a sibling or a friend. Until I shared the story I never once heard of stuff. Now I can point out in my own ward half a dozen men who experienced similar situations. 
 

Same applies to when I openly became a PIMO. As a few years went by I have had a few people and two couples in my ward reach out to me to learn how to navigate their relationships or deal with callings when they don’t believe. It isn’t like I know much but they see I have been doing it. I would never know they were right there next to me all along, but since they felt safe talking with me about it I found out. Our bishop doesn’t know about any of them except for one guy. 
 

be careful assuming a story is just some one- off scenario because you have never witnessed such stuff. There are families out there who are so hard line and their lives are 100% wrapped around Mormonism there is no fear greater than one of their kids not checking off all the boxes. Getting Eagle, going on mission, going to BYU, Marry in temple etc. some families freak the fetch out when their kid falls out of line. Why????

Because now the spotlight of fellow members is now on mom and dad. They obviously don’t pray as a family, no food storage, didn’t read scriptures enough, didn’t make kid go to seminary, obviously not doing FHE like they are supposed to. probably only go to the temple a few times a year. Yep they are not following the program, no wonder their pos kid won’t go on a mission or whatever the issue is. 
 

To add insult to injury, my family was one of those power families (bishop, stake pres, EQP, RS pres) You know where if dad isn’t at work he is at church in some useless meeting for years on end. Apostles stop by for dinner or meeting with dad etc. Dad barely knows his kids and mom is in mental breakdown part three. Now it is mom’s fault because the whole program is her responsibility. Dad doesn’t have time, he has this huge calling. In fact the kids have not seen him for three days because he has had to go straight to church after work and doesn’t come home till midnight after kiddos are in the sack. Yep obvious the mom is slacking. 
 

That’s when you get the parents going ape crap over stuff because everyone is watching. Believe me there is serious incentive to bribe or otherwise force a kid to go on a mission when a family is under that kind of spotlight. Lots of pressure then when the local big leadership (>stake pres) finds out they start heavy weighting your dad over it. Yep this is the life of a power family in the church. Even locally. 
 

there is every incentive in the world to do nearly anything to get your “missionary” on the plane. It is all about the family image. 
 

this little ditty from elder holland perfectly illustrates the dialogue that happens in these kind of Mormon homes. Esp if you are not falling in line. 
 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Diamondhands69
Typo city

[Diamondhands69]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:31 AM, Joshua said:

I just finished watching the video that was attached, and there is no way that the 15 would have given their blessing to the film. Moreover, if that was the case, I am really dissatisfied. Is it just me, or did everyone else find the father in the video to be a complete and utter jerk? To my knowledge, I have never heard of a situation in which parents transfer their life savings to the church rather than to their children. My guess is that this does not actually take place.  

https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/gift-planning/how-to-give/testamentary-giving-tools/retained-life-estate-deed/

 

“The typical donor: …

• Does not desire to pass personal residence or farm to heirs.”

 

i work in the financial industry with lots of Mormons. I have referred many there who want to donate to the church. Some do it to cut off wayward children, but most just feel some obligation to pass it all or most of it to the church. We also help clients process in-kind transfers of stocks to the church for their tithing. It is a huge tax dodge but hey the law says you can so obviously that’s the right thing to do. 
 

more:

“By submitting the form below, you or your professional advisor are notifying us that you are naming The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or one of its affiliated charities as a beneficiary in a will, trust, or other planned gift.”

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[let’s roll]

2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

As for the mission/agency/bribing thing, I have been very open with my story over the years with friends from church, in priesthood meeting when the discussion goes there. Not often,  but anyone I have known in any of the wards I have been in knows my story. It actually surprised me how many have shared with me a similar thing that happened with them, a sibling or a friend. Until I shared the story I never once heard of stuff. Now I can point out in my own ward half a dozen men who experienced similar situations. 
 

Same applies to when I openly became a PIMO. As a few years went by I have had a few people and two couples in my ward reach out to me to learn how to navigate their relationships or deal with callings when they don’t believe. It isn’t like I know much but they see I have been doing it. I would never know they were right there next to me all along, but since they felt safe talking with me about it I found out. Our bishop doesn’t know about any of them except for one guy. 
 

be careful assuming a story is just some one- off scenario because you have never witnessed such stuff. There are families out there who are so hard line and their lives are 100% wrapped around Mormonism there is no fear greater than one of their kids not checking off all the boxes. Getting Eagle, going on mission, going to BYU, Marry in temple etc. some families freak the fetch out when their kid falls out of line. Why????

Because now the spotlight of fellow members is now on mom and dad. They obviously don’t pray as a family, no food storage, didn’t read scriptures enough, didn’t make kid go to seminary, obviously not doing FHE like they are supposed to. probably only go to the temple a few times a year. Yep they are not following the program, no wonder their pos kid won’t go on a mission or whatever the issue is. 
 

To add insult to injury, my family was one of those power families (bishop, stake pres, EQP, RS pres) You know where if dad isn’t at work he is at church in some useless meeting for years on end. Apostles stop by for dinner or meeting with dad etc. Dad barely knows his kids and mom is in mental breakdown part three. Now it is mom’s fault because the whole program is her responsibility. Dad doesn’t have time, he has this huge calling. In fact the kids have not seen him for three days because he has had to go straight to church after work and doesn’t come home till midnight after kiddos are in the sack. Yep obvious the mom is slacking. 
 

That’s when you get the parents going ape crap over stuff because everyone is watching. Believe me there is serious incentive to bribe or otherwise force a kid to go on a mission when a family is under that kind of spotlight. Lots of pressure then when the local big leadership (>stake pres) finds out they start heavy weighting your dad over it. Yep this is the life of a power family in the church. Even locally. 
 

there is every incentive in the world to do nearly anything to get your “missionary” on the plane. It is all about the family image. 

I’m trying to understand how you believe your childhood impacted you.  Was how you believe others perceived your family important to you?

Do you resent your father for how often he was away from home?

How did your home life impact your efforts to come to know and commune with Deity?

In totality do you look back on your time at home with your parents as positive or negative?

We all have different experiences, my father left our home when I was ten.  My family was on and off Church assistance for a few years.  I started working when I was 15, paid for my mission and put myself through college and law school.  I don’t remember ever thinking as a child, a youth, or an adult about how others perceived me or my family.

I treasure my childhood and love my mother and siblings, my father chose not to be part of our lives after he left.  I went on my first mission for the same reason I went on my second one.  I love the God I came to know as a youth, I love His children and I find joy in serving Him and them.  Some of my kids feel as I do and some don’t.  I love them all.

I wish you Godspeed.

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by let’s roll
Typo

[Diamondhands69]

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

I’m trying to understand how you believe your childhood impacted you.  Was how you believe others perceived your family important to you?

important to me? Not really. Kids for the most part don’t notice anything till they are young teens then the comments start rolling in.. ur the stake pres kid, the bishop kid u should know better. Must be awesome to have apostles visit your house etc. then you start to realize you and family are being watched and judged on everything. 

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Do you resent your father for how often he was away from home?

no- he believed in what he was doing and I feel he was brainwashed to a point he felt he had no choice. I was taught it was a sin to turn down a calling for any reason. I recall a time I complained to my mother about why he wasn’t at any of my ball games, scout stuff etc and she just said he was doing more important stuff at church and not worry. We will be able to be together as a family in ye celestial kingdom. For now- yea he has church meetings 

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

How did your home life impact your efforts to come to know and commune with Deity?

Well the forced participation in every little church thing and the turning everything into a church thing got old at a very young age. When your family goes on vacation and you spend a day in a hotel room with your siblings while mom and dad are at the temple- that sucks. Also travel somewhere and we have to blow a Sunday and go to some random ward for all three hours and before that the even longer program. Parents go on missions and don’t know their grandkids. I got a serious distaste for it. Made sure I was the kind of guy they would not call for anything. Wanted my life back cuz my ( and my siblings) childhood was stolen. I have never had a serious calling in the church and I’m thankful. My parents have always asked why I don’t have real callings like my male siblings have had or do have. I have seen how the sausage is really made and only played a  nominal part in it so I wasn’t disowned or shunned along with my wife and kids. Now parents are gone and I’m almost out. It is a slow burn because along the way people find out you are pimo they start avoiding you and your family. I have very few Mormon friends left so shouldn’t be too long before we just disappear. 

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

In totality do you look back on your time at home with your parents as positive or negative?

I think they did a good job considering how they believed the whole program works. They would have loved living in a theocracy where the law could force compliance though. 

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

We all have different experiences, my father left our home when I was ten.  My family was on and off Church assistance for a few years.  I started working when I was 15, paid for my mission and put myself through college and law school.  I don’t remember ever thinking as a child, a youth, or an adult about how others perceived me or my family.

Speaking of church assistance- I recall when I was really young going to people’s homes with my mom to go through their cubbards to inventory food and then make shopping lists and tell them what they could get. We would then all pile in the car and go to the bishops storehouse to get their groceries. This was in the mid 70s to maybe even early 80s. 

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

I treasure my childhood and love my mother and siblings, my father chose not to be part of our lives after he left.  I went on my first mission for the same reason I went on my second one.  I love the God I came to know as a youth, I love His children and I find joy in serving Him and them.  Some of my kids feel as I do and some don’t.  I love them all.

I wish you Godspeed.

thanks-u too 

8 hours ago, let’s roll said:

 

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[let’s roll]

3 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

thanks-u too 

Thanks for your candid and thoughtful response.  I didn’t get a sense of how you feel about your relationship with Deity.  For example,  do you feel like you are experiencing the “rest” Christ can provide?  

My experience has been that church activity can be a component of spirituality but if it’s the only component spirituality, at least my spirituality, wanes.  For me to be spiritually healthy I need to spend more time pursuing personal Divine communion than I spend at church.

How do you feel today about the spiritual ROI for the time you spend at church?  I will admit that I wouldn’t go if I wasn’t feeling spiritually enhanced (through what I feel while participating and serving others) while attending.  And I’m not sure I could feel that way while I am at Church if I wasn’t spending time outside of church pursuing personal communion with Deity.

Thanks for letting me share.

[Diamondhands69]

38 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Thanks for your candid and thoughtful response.  I didn’t get a sense of how you feel about your relationship with Deity.  For example,  do you feel like you are experiencing the “rest” Christ can provide?  
 

not at church I don’t. It is such a slog sometimes. This whole endure to the end thing I don’t think Christ meant living the gospel to have to be drudgery, pointless or high-stress callings etc. my dad didn’t rest for forty years. Church stuff wore him out and he felt bad about not doing enough.. whatever that meant. I don’t get any “rest” from it and really never have. 
 

38 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

My experience has been that church activity can be a component of spirituality but if it’s the only component spirituality, at least my spirituality, wanes.  For me to be spiritually healthy I need to spend more time pursuing personal Divine communion than I spend at church.

How do you feel today about the spiritual ROI for the time you spend at church?  I will admit that I wouldn’t go if I wasn’t feeling spiritually enhanced (through what I feel while participating and serving others) while attending.  And I’m not sure I could feel that way while I am at Church if I wasn’t spending time outside of church pursuing personal communion with Deity.

my ROI has been overall in the red. In the past decade I was heavily involved in scouting and in 2015 ish I was released from committee chair for exposing a fraudulent stake merit badge program where stake level folks conspired and carried out a  scheme to alter the requirements of many merit badges so the kids could get them in three days at the stake sponsored scout camp. I protested it. They ignored me and I subsequently reported it to BSA after they did it.
 

Oddly enough unknown to me the dude at BSA was lds and made the  whole thing go away but the stake went after me and released me. Not sustaining the stake presidency apparently. Sooo yea after that I checked out. I wasn’t supporting a bunch of fraudsters so yea- I’m “disloyal.” There are about 130 or so fake merit badges being worn on those kids sashes back then. Not the kids fault though. 

that position was the biggest waste of my own time and money. Next was Sunday school presidency. Since then I have had no callings. Not for lack of being called, I just say no. 

38 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Thanks for letting me share.

Any time!

[Pyreaux]

On 12/14/2023 at 5:47 PM, Diamondhands69 said:

Ok we can agree to disagree. So do you think it is an honorable thing to do for a parent or a bishop to encourage? Just to get the wayward man child  to obey and go experience his “best two years” ever? 

it’s a pretty crappy thing to do. I’d love to hear testimony of that program on a Sunday. It’s one of those things we all know happens but I have never heard a parent publicly admit to doing it. 

You guys are talking about two different things, many things have benefits and consequence, it's still a choice. A bribe is an incentive you offer someone in exchange for bad behavior. A reward is an incentive you offer someone in exchange for good behavior. True bribes are never okay.

Encouraging a child to go on a mission when they don't want to is a bad choice. One should motivate those whose character is still developing, as they may need extrinsic motivation (in the form of a reward) to promote intrinsic motivation (doing things for their own reward). There is a balance to be struck. You might use incentives, if say they are fearful of trying something new.

[rodheadlee]

On 12/12/2023 at 9:23 PM, Diamondhands69 said:

So here is a link to the England Hyde Park chapel /visitors center. Pic #2 is clearly displaying an “I’m a Mormon” campaign pic. 
 

Serious question if this is a victory for Satan, why is the church sponsoring this? It is in the visitors center and on the church website. Does the church (prophet) really care? Surely this has been seen by at least one do-gooder and reported to salt lake. 
 

anyone on this board make a recent visit there who can confirm if it is still up or even noticed? One would think a visitors center would have been sanitized of it years ago. 
 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/locations/hyde-park-chapel?lang=eng#d

Okay I'll tell you my opinion of why the slow change over. When I was first introduced to the church in 1982 I had no idea the Mormon church was a Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I had no idea it was even a Christian Church . Which is the main reason for the changeover. The reason it's a slow change over is so people can equate the Mormon church with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That's not an instantaneous happening. And when I first got baptized it  used to make me mad when people would call it the Mormon church. We don't worship Mormon.

Edited December 19, 2023 by rodheadlee

[Diamondhands69]

10 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

You guys are talking about two different things, many things have benefits and consequence, it's still a choice. A bribe is an incentive you offer someone in exchange for bad behavior. A reward is an incentive you offer someone in exchange for good behavior. True bribes are never okay.

Encouraging a child to go on a mission when they don't want to is a bad choice. One should motivate those whose character is still developing, as they may need extrinsic motivation (in the form of a reward) to promote intrinsic motivation (doing things for their own reward). There is a balance to be struck. You might use incentives, if say they are fearful of trying something new.

Offering money for bad behavior… I agree. I guess where we disagree is accepting money/funding education et al in exchange for going on a mission and lying to investigators for two years a good thing or a bad thing. Is it a financial incentive or is it a bribe?
 

by “lying” I mean a missionary who has made it publicly known to bishop, stake pres, mom and dad and MP that they have no testimony and every time they share the script they are told to say, they are lying in their opinion. All above mentioned authority figures say go say what ur suppose to say and some day you might get a testimony. Call it what you want, just get on the plane and go do it. Oh.. and if you make it two years we will buy you a car and pay for college. If you don’t do it- you are out of the house and on your own effective immediately. 
 

is lying to investigators in order to get them to join the church good or bad? 

Being paid to go do it… bribe or incentive?

I say bribe . And it is a bad thing

Edited December 19, 2023 by Diamondhands69

[webbles]

9 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Offering money for bad behavior… I agree. I guess where we disagree is accepting money/funding education et al in exchange for going on a mission and lying to investigators for two years a good thing or a bad thing. Is it a financial incentive or is it a bribe?
 

by “lying” I mean a missionary who has made it publicly known to bishop, stake pres, mom and dad and MP that they have no testimony and every time they share the script they are told to say, they are lying in their opinion. All above mentioned authority figures say go say what ur suppose to say and some day you might get a testimony. Call it what you want, just get on the plane and go do it. Oh.. and if you make it two years we will buy you a car and pay for college. If you don’t do it- you are out of the house and on your own effective immediately. 
 

is lying to investigators in order to get them to join the church good or bad? 

Being paid to go do it… bribe or incentive?

I say bribe . And it is a bad thing

If I had a son/daughter that absolutely didn't want to go on a mission, I wouldn't bribe or incentivize them to go.  I don't see the value in that and I think it would harm them.  But, that isn't to say that it is always a bad thing for the kid.

When I was fairly new one my mission, I had a senior companion who was a little infamous in the mission.  I was lucky to have 3 of his former companions as my companions so I got to learn a lot of the stories.  Before I was his companion, he hated the mission.  He wanted to go home.  He broke a ton of rules (physically fought his companions, broke furniture, wouldn't leave the apartment, left the apartment after curfew, visited a strip club, etc).  I don't know why he didn't go home.  He should have.  He met with the mission president multiple times.  He had long calls with his father.  The father wouldn't let him come home.  I don't know why the missionary was forced to stay or how they forced him to stay (there was no mention of bribery) but he hated it.  And he was extremely disruptive to his companions and to the mission.  He was finally brought into the mission home where he served for almost 6 months as an assistant secretary.  While there, he was the project of both the president's wife and another missionary.  He transformed.  He became a completely different person.  I was his first companion after he left the mission home.  He was really great to work with and one of my favorite companions.

If I had been the father or the mission president, I would have definitely sent him home.  I'm still not sure if the experience was worth it for the mission, the other companions, and the members/investigators in the mission.  But the missionary did learn something.