When are we the problem and when is it someone or something else?

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Maestrophil said:

find for me, just like the disciples at the Last Supper, I can rarely go wrong starting by asking "Lord, is it me?"

I try and do the same, but there are those who are too prone to say “of course it is me and not only that, but I am so much worse”.  I don’t believe we need to write all our talks for that type of listener, but I think it a good idea to be aware of them and be gentle when we can because of them…because they are much more likely to be the ones responding than those who might need it most who are more likely to think “he has pegged that guy in my ward perfectly, I hope he is listening” (as was joked about now I think of it).

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Usually it is violence.

Yup. Though not the only response that can be considered unhealthy, physical violence is certainly the worst.

[Navidad]

I am speaking in general . . . I think that one of things most problematic for deeply religious people who identify strongly with a  given church is becoming codependent on and with that church. Marriage and family therapists are trained on how to deal with that kind of codependency in the world of families. Rarely do we hear about codependency with a church, but I believe it is quite similar. In most codependent relationships there develops an external as opposed to an internal locus of control. We become accustomed to depending on the other, looking to the other, and needing the other to provide us our direction, guidance, significance, identity, meaning, and yes, even eternal destiny. The other might be a person; it might also be an organization, group - yes, even a church or denomination. I believe many churches (denominations, religious groups), as well as other types of organizations are masters at creating codependency with their members, employees, etc. 

Then any rational disagreement, criticism, disappointment or discontentment with anything or anyone associated with the external locus of control force is a risk to all of those things I mentioned in the fourth line of the above paragraph. So therefore it must be your or my fault if we don't validate everything about that relationship. Avoidance of the loss of all those things in the first paragraph is what keep folks in toxic relationships. Of course toxic relationships can include those with and within organizations, especially those that have created dogmas, doctrines (not solely religious) that foster or encourage both dependence and external locus of control.

The sense of or risk of loss of the relationship is significant. I can't imagine what it must be when the relationship goes beyond the religious into the social, cultural, and relational spheres of the entirety of its members' lives. In those situations when I ask "Is it them or is it me?" It must be me! Thanks for reading and receiving my thoughts. 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Navidad
grammar and to de-personalize

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Yup. Though not the only response that can be considered unhealthy, physical violence is certainly the worst.

Hey, don’t generalize. Violence is my love language.

[Vanguard]

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Hey, don’t generalize. Violence is my love language.

I also thought physical violence is the worst because almost by definition it includes emotional violence.

[BlueDreams]

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

The General Conference Thoughts thread, where some of the discussion is on things that have caused hurt or are flat out wrong to have been taught or said by a leader, has me wondering.  How do we tell the difference between having a negative reaction to something because of the human fallibility of the person who wrote it or taught it (even in our prophets and apostles and the scriptures), and having a negative reaction to something due to own weaknesses or ego or baggage (or whatever else it might be)?

I've struggled with this question a lot personally for years and that other discussion has brought it to the forefront of my mind once again.  I certainly have negative reactions to things taught or done sometimes and I honestly struggle to know when that reaction is justified (for lack of a better term) and when it's a sign that I need to change/repent/heal/am in the wrong but don't want to accept it. 

It's often really hard for me to tell the difference between my own feelings and feelings that come from a godly place (again, for lack of a better way to describe it).  When I get upset about something, I don't know that the spirit could even correct me sometimes, because I am usually so sure that my feelings are justified.  But that's not what how I want to be so how can I get better at that?  At being able to recognize the difference between myself (and specifically my negative/hurt emotions) and the spirit?

Thoughts?  What do you do to tell the difference?  How do you know when you are justified in believing that you are struggling with something because of the faults of a leader or even the weaknesses in scripture?

I think I have a few guiding principles that seem to have helped me. I'll list them based on what comes to mind first.

I try not to just react. Reactions are like emotional lightning in a dark sky. They happen quick and fast and may illuminate something for a moment but is we rely on that flash point to guide us we likely will trip on ourselves. So I pause and replay it carefully: what was said? what feeling did it pull out? where have I felt something similar? What's my baggage that may have led to the internal friction? 

I try to understand the other side. A lot. I have a firm belief that the only reason someone seems weird or crazy to me is because I don't understand them. If I knew their full story, what they were saying or doing would make sense. If it's too simple of an explanation that makes me increase in frustration or maintains my ire, then I still don't understand them and my explanation is probably wrong. People have reasons, even for things I strongly disagree with. And when I understand, I have both a better way of seeing things and a better way to help give a better perspective or change things if it's in my power to do so. 

I pay close attention to my biases. I have several that have gotten in the way and make me react without listening. I often own my biases when I'm in dialogue with someone I'm having a reaction with. Biases aren't bad, but left uncheck they can leave us constantly working on a single track. And again, life ain't that simple.

I recognize that if they're wrong, I'm likely wrong on something and don't know it yet. I say this to avoid assuming I have THE answer. I don't. I'm often missing a ton of pieces and try to remember that. I'm not running a multimillion member organization that spans continents and peoples. Those are big gaps in knowledge.

Lastly I usually use discomfort for springboards of exploration. Once I've moved past condemnation or reaction, I try to move to curiosity and re-centering what I believe and understand on an uncomfortable topic. there's moments that's helped me grow and expand a lot and received answers that were later validated (that happened with many of the recent temple changes), there's moments that I know I'm missing something too but am not sure what or have the jurisdiction to really receive more (that's a number of LGBT related questions), and there's some I end on a different answer than the larger body of the church but don't feel super conflicted about that because by the time I've got to this point, I'm usually more empathetic about the process that it took to just move me...let alone millions. This process to me is when I feel most clear that this is more in line with God because it's led by love, humility, compassion, interest in others, and peace.

 

That's me on a good day at least. On a bad one, I just eye roll, get annoyed, and share that annoyance with someone then move on. 

 

With luv,

BD 

[let’s roll]

9 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

 

9 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I think I have a few guiding principles that seem to have helped me. I'll list them based on what comes to mind first.

I try not to just react. Reactions are like emotional lightning in a dark sky. They happen quick and fast and may illuminate something for a moment but is we rely on that flash point to guide us we likely will trip on ourselves. So I pause and replay it carefully: what was said? what feeling did it pull out? where have I felt something similar? What's my baggage that may have led to the internal friction? 

I try to understand the other side. A lot. I have a firm belief that the only reason someone seems weird or crazy to me is because I don't understand them. If I knew their full story, what they were saying or doing would make sense. If it's too simple of an explanation that makes me increase in frustration or maintains my ire, then I still don't understand them and my explanation is probably wrong. People have reasons, even for things I strongly disagree with. And when I understand, I have both a better way of seeing things and a better way to help give a better perspective or change things if it's in my power to do so. 

I pay close attention to my biases. I have several that have gotten in the way and make me react without listening. I often own my biases when I'm in dialogue with someone I'm having a reaction with. Biases aren't bad, but left uncheck they can leave us constantly working on a single track. And again, life ain't that simple.

I recognize that if they're wrong, I'm likely wrong on something and don't know it yet. I say this to avoid assuming I have THE answer. I don't. I'm often missing a ton of pieces and try to remember that. I'm not running a multimillion member organization that spans continents and peoples. Those are big gaps in knowledge.

Lastly I usually use discomfort for springboards of exploration. Once I've moved past condemnation or reaction, I try to move to curiosity and re-centering what I believe and understand on an uncomfortable topic. there's moments that's helped me grow and expand a lot and received answers that were later validated (that happened with many of the recent temple changes), there's moments that I know I'm missing something too but am not sure what or have the jurisdiction to really receive more (that's a number of LGBT related questions), and there's some I end on a different answer than the larger body of the church but don't feel super conflicted about that because by the time I've got to this point, I'm usually more empathetic about the process that it took to just move me...let alone millions. This process to me is when I feel most clear that this is more in line with God because it's led by love, humility, compassion, interest in others, and peace.

 

That's me on a good day at least. On a bad one, I just eye roll, get annoyed, and share that annoyance with someone then move on. 

 

With luv,

BD 

Drop the mic BlueDreams…I wish I could put this on a refrigerator magnet so that every time I open the fridge to get some comfort food to quell my frustration, I could read this, calm myself and close the refrigerator door…I’d be back to my HS weight in no time.😊

Edited October 5, 2023 by let’s roll
Duplicate

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

Drop the mic BlueDreams…I wish I could put this on a refrigerator magnet so that every time I open the fridge to get some comfort food to quell my frustration, I could read this, calm myself and close the refrigerator door…I’d be back to my HS weight in no time.😊

Ditto the mic drop for BlueDreams!

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Vanguard said:

I also thought physical violence is the worst because almost by definition it includes emotional violence.

Not the way I do it. 😈

[bluebell]

Thank you everyone for the thoughtful responses.  I have read them and have been thinking on them and the wisdom you guys have shared.  I'm so thankful that I have the posters here as part of my tribe.

[bluebell]

On 10/3/2023 at 6:58 PM, MustardSeed said:

I don’t think so but I’m a therapist so maybe it’s word play.  I’d say “mad” might be an understandable reaction. 
 

let’s say, for example, that someone was married in the temple, and their partner was abusive and awful, and didn’t take showers. Then they met Mr. wonderful who treated them with respect and love, and for the first time they feel self-esteem, and let’s say that they even love Jesus more because of their experience. Then the prophet says “ people who have affairs are sinful”.  Well, that might make our subject mad. Is it wrong for them to be mad?
 

Let’s say somebody’s just a straight up narcissistic jerk face who gets away with having affairs because his wife is complicit for whatever reason. He hears the prophet say that that people who have affairs are wrong and need to repent. Narcissistic jerk face gets defensive, and decides that the prophet is weak in his stance.  Is it wrong to think that way?  Eh, probably.  But it’s easy to pick on the folks who are truly awful humans.  Problem is, I don’t know many of them. 

I think our different perspectives does make a difference on how we each view the topic.  I would say that both people are in the wrong for being mad, but I think that's because I'm defining being mad in this context as as upset at another person for an illegitimate grievance (which I think Vanguard actually came up with but I'm stealing it) and I think you might be defining it differently.

Their "illegitimate grievances" are both really difference since the examples have little in common other than the adultery of course.

I always learn a lot from your posts though and seeing things through the eyes of someone who deals with so much human hurt on a regular basis.

[bluebell]

On 10/3/2023 at 8:04 PM, The Nehor said:

I often don’t trust the promises made anymore. I have been burned by them too many times.

Oh man, I've been there.  It's a hard place.

[bluebell]

On 10/3/2023 at 8:50 PM, Calm said:

I am not sure it matters in most cases because I can practically guarantee at least in church the other isn’t going to change or remove it and we therefore need to find a way to adapt to it in our lives if we don’t want it to keep harming ourselves even if we are justified in our reaction, to figure out how we can turn it into something positive.  But telling ourselves we were wrong and dwelling on that or spending our time trying to find out if we were wrong or right focuses on the wrong thing (what we did or didn’t do, not what we can do) and typically  turns it into an exercise of guilt from what I have seen, making it that much harder to act in effective ways.  Better to just look at it and think how can I make this work for me and if you can’t, just put it aside as not relevant in your life at this time.  You more than likely already have plenty you are working on that fills your life with meaningful purpose.  You don’t always have to focus on something just because it pops up on your radar.   If it is something you actually need to face, I have no doubt God will give you other opportunities to rethink your conclusion.

If it is something we believe we should not only not accept and still need to do something about, maybe even publicly speak against it, then I would say the next step is studying it out as much as possible, praying while doing this that we will find an appropriate and useful way to address it.

I think for me, I see it as mattering because if something is harmful to me, then I don't want my reaction to someone pointing that out to stop me from changing.  If I'm justifying a sin, for example, then that matters in my belief.  If someone has spoken out of turn (or even, just spoken in a way that doesn't actually apply to me so I don't need to worry about it), then knowing that matters to me too so that I don't waste time and energy trying to deal with it.

I don't want to be too hard on myself because that is harmful, but I don't want to be too easy on myself either, for the same reasons.

[BlueDreams]

@bluebell I listened to this today and yesterday and thought you would be interested in it as it directly applies to the topic. Just in case it's unfamiliar, this is a podcast from two gay LDS men. One is married to a man, one is abstinent...both are practicing saints to the degree they can participate and engage in church. It's a podcast, so it's also available on other podcast platforms. This was just the easiest for me to quickly link to

 

 

BD 

 

With luv

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

@bluebell I listened to this today and yesterday and thought you would be interested in it as it directly applies to the topic. Just in case it's unfamiliar, this is a podcast from two gay LDS men. One is married to a man, one is abstinent...both are practicing saints to the degree they can participate and engage in church. It's a podcast, so it's also available on other podcast platforms. This was just the easiest for me to quickly link to

 

 

BD 

 

With luv

Thank you!!  I will listen to it.

[Anonymous Mormon]

On 10/3/2023 at 5:00 PM, bluebell said:

The General Conference Thoughts thread, where some of the discussion is on things that have caused hurt or are flat out wrong to have been taught or said by a leader, has me wondering.  How do we tell the difference between having a negative reaction to something because of the human fallibility of the person who wrote it or taught it (even in our prophets and apostles and the scriptures), and having a negative reaction to something due to own weaknesses or ego or baggage (or whatever else it might be)?

I've struggled with this question a lot personally for years and that other discussion has brought it to the forefront of my mind once again.  I certainly have negative reactions to things taught or done sometimes and I honestly struggle to know when that reaction is justified (for lack of a better term) and when it's a sign that I need to change/repent/heal/am in the wrong but don't want to accept it. 

It's often really hard for me to tell the difference between my own feelings and feelings that come from a godly place (again, for lack of a better way to describe it).  When I get upset about something, I don't know that the spirit could even correct me sometimes, because I am usually so sure that my feelings are justified.  But that's not what how I want to be so how can I get better at that?  At being able to recognize the difference between myself (and specifically my negative/hurt emotions) and the spirit?

Thoughts?  What do you do to tell the difference?  How do you know when you are justified in believing that you are struggling with something because of the faults of a leader or even the weaknesses in scripture?

I try to remember these scriptures and use them as my guiding principle in times like these:

 

1) Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. (Mormon 9:31)

I recognize that they were imperfect and pray for them to improve and try to learn from their experience to not make the same mistake in my life.

For example, I recently re-listened to a talk where an Apostle told a joke at someone's expense that I found petty. I prayed for him and made a personal goal to never tell a joke at another's expense.

 

2) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; (Mat 5:25)

I try to see if there are points I can agree on with them. When I look at the motives behind people's actions that I consider wrong, I can often see that their motives are good, just different than mine.

For example, in the abortion debate if I can recognize that the person I disagree with is trying to stop children from suffering in households where they are not wanted and maybe there is not enough food to fee them. And this person is just destroying what in their view is a small number of cells. I can see that even if I don't agree 100%, I can understand that they are not being evil, but trying to do good in their view. Then I can find areas of agreement around stopping suffering of unwanted children in poor households.

 

3) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Mat 5:44)

For those who intentionally are trying to hurt me, be mean to me, use me for their own selfish ends, or persecute me, I try to pray for them and find ways to do good and love them.

I will often pray for politicians, political commentators, and people on this board and in my prayer try to humanize them and ask for specific blessings that they might need. This is hard to do, but it makes me much less angry or offended when done. I also follow the advice of President Nelson from last conference and try not to speak badly about them to others.
(note: the one politician I can't figure out how to pray for is Putin - I just don't want anything good for him but can't bring myself to pray for something bad. All others including presidents, congressman, media personalities, etc. it's much easier to pray for).

 

Personally, whenever I am wondering what I need to do better or different, I can read the Sermon On The Mount and find the answer in it. To date it has 100% of the time helped me realize where I need to repent and improve to have the Spirit and God's peace back in my life.

I hope the above helps someone.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

(note: the one politician I can't figure out how to pray for is Putin - I just don't want anything good for him but can't bring myself to pray for something bad. All others including presidents, congressman, media personalities, etc. it's much easier to pray for).

Flashback time and so appropriate:

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I try to remember these scriptures and use them as my guiding principle in times like these:

 

1) Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been. (Mormon 9:31)

I recognize that they were imperfect and pray for them to improve and try to learn from their experience to not make the same mistake in my life.

For example, I recently re-listened to a talk where an Apostle told a joke at someone's expense that I found petty. I prayed for him and made a personal goal to never tell a joke at another's expense.

 

2) Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; (Mat 5:25)

I try to see if there are points I can agree on with them. When I look at the motives behind people's actions that I consider wrong, I can often see that their motives are good, just different than mine.

For example, in the abortion debate if I can recognize that the person I disagree with is trying to stop children from suffering in households where they are not wanted and maybe there is not enough food to fee them. And this person is just destroying what in their view is a small number of cells. I can see that even if I don't agree 100%, I can understand that they are not being evil, but trying to do good in their view. Then I can find areas of agreement around stopping suffering of unwanted children in poor households.

 

3) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; (Mat 5:44)

For those who intentionally are trying to hurt me, be mean to me, use me for their own selfish ends, or persecute me, I try to pray for them and find ways to do good and love them.

I will often pray for politicians, political commentators, and people on this board and in my prayer try to humanize them and ask for specific blessings that they might need. This is hard to do, but it makes me much less angry or offended when done. I also follow the advice of President Nelson from last conference and try not to speak badly about them to others.
(note: the one politician I can't figure out how to pray for is Putin - I just don't want anything good for him but can't bring myself to pray for something bad. All others including presidents, congressman, media personalities, etc. it's much easier to pray for).

 

Personally, whenever I am wondering what I need to do better or different, I can read the Sermon On The Mount and find the answer in it. To date it has 100% of the time helped me realize where I need to repent and improve to have the Spirit and God's peace back in my life.

I hope the above helps someone.

Thank you, that is some really wise advice and I love how you use scripture to find a way through without condemning yourself or anyone else.

[bluebell]

On 10/6/2023 at 12:58 PM, BlueDreams said:

@bluebell I listened to this today and yesterday and thought you would be interested in it as it directly applies to the topic. Just in case it's unfamiliar, this is a podcast from two gay LDS men. One is married to a man, one is abstinent...both are practicing saints to the degree they can participate and engage in church. It's a podcast, so it's also available on other podcast platforms. This was just the easiest for me to quickly link to

 

 

BD 

 

With luv

This was an excellent podcast!  I hope that a lot of people have the opportunity to watch it.  I loved so much of what they both said, especially the analogy of the backpack and the use of the story of Peter cutting off the ear of the guard and seeking healing through Christ.  

Good stuff.