Sara H Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 Because the membership of our church has grown to 17 million people, we are now greater than Judaism, which is the third largest Abrahamic religion, plus a few smaller religions. Why should we care about this? Instead of trying to pass ourselves off as Christians when our teaching is sufficiently distinct from that of Christianity, I believe that we ought to be recognized as a distinct Abrahamic religion rather than continuing to pretend that we are Christian. It is my opinion that if we promoted the doctrine that we often try not to talk about out in the open and put it front and center, more people would find our religion more interesting and not think that we are so weird. The three main Abrahamic religions are all monotheistic, and none of them believe in a heavenly mother. There is no better time than the present to shed light on our heavenly mother and demonstrate that we think that women, like men, have the potential to ascend to godhood. What better time to not just state that we believe women may become God's, but that there are probably already millions, if not billions out there! I'll tell you one thing that Joseph probably didn't realize when he talked about how we believe in multiple gods and that women can also become gods. He probably didn't realize that now that we have the technology to look out into space and see what's out there, we're starting to realize that there's a really good possibility that we're not alone. Joseph designed it to be completely distinct from a central tenet of Christianity, which asserts that there is only one God and no heavenly mother. I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me what could possibly be more impressive than watching 15 male apostles and prophets from our church proclaim to the world that they are servants not only to God the eternal father but also to God the eternal mother. To my mind, however, in order for such a significant shift to occur, it is impossible to do so while at the same time attempting to act as if we're Christians. A beneficial and epoch-making shift for our church would be to publicly acknowledge that we are the third largest Abrahamic religion, displacing Judaism from its current position in third place. The doctrine is there! There's no better time to display our love for heavenly mother and our acceptance of multiple gods. People are looking for hope and love in a world full of negativity, this is when a heavenly mother is needed. -1
InCognitus Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sara H said: Instead of trying to pass ourselves off as Christians Why dodge all the questions about "What is a Christian"? If you can't even define "Christian", it's not worth your time anymore to even start a new thread. 4
Popular Post Benjamin McGuire Posted September 7, 2023 Popular Post Posted September 7, 2023 7 minutes ago, Sara H said: Because the membership of our church has grown to 17 million people, we are now greater than Judaism, which is the third largest Abrahamic religion, plus a few smaller religions. Why should we care about this? Instead of trying to pass ourselves off as Christians when our teaching is sufficiently distinct from that of Christianity, I believe that we ought to be recognized as a distinct Abrahamic religion rather than continuing to pretend that we are Christian. There are two things, I think, worth considering here. First, we are recognized as distinct already. If you go and look at any Pew Research survey in living memory, you will see that Within Christianity, they find four major categories - Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, and LDS. So we are already seen as a distinct sub-group of Christianity. Second, Mormonism owes a huge debt to traditional Christianity. It's not just that we embrace the New Testament. If you look at our 6th Article of Faith, you can see how early Mormonism didn't see itself as the advent of a new Abrahamic religion, it saw itself as a restoration of Christianity and as an heir to the Apostolic Christian faith: Quote We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. For us to say that we only pretend to be Christian is a huge problem in terms of our own self-understanding. Don't get me wrong - I think that we have shrugged off a lot of what we might consider to be restorationist components in the Church. But, we have not gotten so far as to say that we aren't rooted in that idea of a restoration of Christianity on which more has been added. 7
Popular Post pogi Posted September 7, 2023 Popular Post Posted September 7, 2023 Why do we have to ditch Christianity in order to profess belief in heavenly mother? Cant we do both? 8
The Nehor Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 IN YOUR FACE JUDAISM! Yeah, I can see that going well. 4
Sara H Posted September 7, 2023 Author Posted September 7, 2023 30 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said: Don't get me wrong - I think that we have shrugged off a lot of what we might consider to be restorationist components in the Church. But, we have not gotten so far as to say that we aren't rooted in that idea of a restoration of Christianity on which more has been added It seems like every decade, our peculiar ideas are getting pushed to the side in an effort to conform to the standards of the larger Christian society. When you consider all that has changed in the church over the past fifteen years, it is impossible to predict what it will be like in fifty years. Will there even be any remnants of the core concepts that have always differentiated us from Christianity? By separating ourselves from Christianity and asserting that we are a distinct Abrahamic religion, the original and complete gospel of Christ, we may circumvent a great number of the challenges that we face when trying to convince others to adopt our worldview. I am of an age where I can recall a period when LDS took pride in conversing with Christians and explaining to them just how the restored gospel is distinct from traditional Christianity. We did not care or worry about whether or not they considered us to be Christians. In fact, I know a lot of LDS people who consider it a badge of honor to not be considered a Christian by a Christian. 32 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said: There are two things, I think, worth considering here. First, we are recognized as distinct already. If you go and look at any Pew Research survey in living memory, you will see that Within Christianity, they find four major categories - Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox, and LDS. So we are already seen as a distinct sub-group of Christianity. Which subgroup does the membership of the 9 million Jehovah's Witnesses and the 25 million Seventh Day Adventists belong to? 33 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said: Second, Mormonism owes a huge debt to traditional Christianity. It's not just that we embrace the New Testament. If you look at our 6th Article of Faith, you can see how early Mormonism didn't see itself as the advent of a new Abrahamic religion, it saw itself as a restoration of Christianity and as an heir to the Apostolic Christian faith When I talk about religion with my Christian friends and relatives, one of the most difficult topics for me to broach is the fact that although we accept the New Testament, we only trust it to the extent that it has been accurately translated. This has always been a major obstacle for me and I have it thrown in my face everytime I get deep into a religious discussion.
Sara H Posted September 7, 2023 Author Posted September 7, 2023 51 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Why dodge all the questions about "What is a Christian"? If you can't even define "Christian", it's not worth your time anymore to even start a new thread. I have enough men in my life that feel the need to tell me what I need to do or not do. Do not tell me what is or is not worth my time, I can decide that for myself. Now you're literally badgering me and following from thread to thread because you're angry I won't give you what you want! -4
Sara H Posted September 7, 2023 Author Posted September 7, 2023 31 minutes ago, pogi said: Why do we have to ditch Christianity in order to profess belief in heavenly mother? Cant we do both? Putting heavenly mother next to heavenly father on an equal footing as an equal would corroborate everything the Christians have ever stated about us in regard to the fact that we are not Christians. You don't think that is a problem?
pogi Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 4 minutes ago, Sara H said: I have enough men in my life that feel the need to tell me what I need to do or not do. Do not tell me what is or is not worth my time, I can decide that for myself. Now you're literally badgering me and following from thread to thread because you're angry I won't give you what you want! It would be helpful to understand where you are coming from so we are not all talking past each other from different understandings of what a Christian is or isn’t. 4
Benjamin McGuire Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Sara H said: Which subgroup does the membership of the 9 million Jehovah's Witnesses and the 25 million Seventh Day Adventists belong to? Protestant. Add: Seventh Day Adventists are an off-shoot of Millerism, which generally came out of the Baptist denomination - and it's theology remains fairly close to traditional evangelicalism. Jehovah's Witnesses have a bit of a longer pedigree. They came into existence in the third schism of the Watch Tower Society - but the Watch Tower Society is, like Seventh Day Adventists, an offshoot of Millerism. Millerism, like Mormonism, was a restorationist movement. Edited September 7, 2023 by Benjamin McGuire 3
pogi Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sara H said: Putting heavenly mother next to heavenly father on an equal footing as an equal would corroborate everything the Christians have ever stated about us in regard to the fact that we are not Christians. You don't think that is a problem? No. I don’t agree with their definition of Christian. They are free to think what they want. I will agree that we are not traditional Christians though. We are definitely a subgroup. We are not the only ones who are not trinitarian or who believe in more than one God. 3
Sara H Posted September 7, 2023 Author Posted September 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said: Protestant. I don't know any SDA, but I have never known a Jehovah's Witness claim to be a Protestant and I know at least six. Maybe.
Benjamin McGuire Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Sara H said: I don't know any SDA, but I have never known a Jehovah's Witness claim to be a Protestant and I know at least six. Maybe. It's like that old joke that I am going to plagiarize here (credit Emo Philips) - Quote Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?" He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!" Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over. Part of the absurdity of the joke is that most people don't know the ins and outs of the pedigree chart for their religious denomination. It isn't so much about where they believe that they fit into the scheme of things, its really about the where their doctrine and theology come from - and of course, whether or not they poll (in these surveys) as a distinctly different group from the others. I know a few from each denomination - there is an SDA church a half mile from my house. Edited September 7, 2023 by Benjamin McGuire 1
Calm Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) Wrong thread Edited September 7, 2023 by Calm
webbles Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 38 minutes ago, Sara H said: I am of an age where I can recall a period when LDS took pride in conversing with Christians and explaining to them just how the restored gospel is distinct from traditional Christianity. We did not care or worry about whether or not they considered us to be Christians. In fact, I know a lot of LDS people who consider it a badge of honor to not be considered a Christian by a Christian. Do those LDS people consider themselves a Christians? Because we have always been taught that we are Christians so I find it odd that you know members who don't see themselves as Christians. This is different from what other people see about us. You can consider it a badge of honor to not be included with the other Christians but that is different from how you view yourself. I'm not bothered when another Christian calls me a non-Christian. Never have been. But I'm a Christian. 40 minutes ago, Sara H said: It seems like every decade, our peculiar ideas are getting pushed to the side in an effort to conform to the standards of the larger Christian society. When you consider all that has changed in the church over the past fifteen years, it is impossible to predict what it will be like in fifty years. Will there even be any remnants of the core concepts that have always differentiated us from Christianity? By separating ourselves from Christianity and asserting that we are a distinct Abrahamic religion, the original and complete gospel of Christ, we may circumvent a great number of the challenges that we face when trying to convince others to adopt our worldview. Can you tell me what peculiar ideas are getting pushed to the side? You talk about Heavenly Mother but when did we ever focus about Her? The amount of information we know about Her is extremely limited. I'd love for more revelation on Her but it isn't a new thing to not talk about Her. 2
ksfisher Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 46 minutes ago, Sara H said: It seems like every decade, our peculiar ideas are getting pushed to the side in an effort to conform to the standards of the larger Christian society I don't think we're trying to push anything aside, rather we're seeking common ground to build upon. 48 minutes ago, Sara H said: When you consider all that has changed in the church over the past fifteen years, it is impossible to predict what it will be like in fifty years. Will there even be any remnants of the core concepts that have always differentiated us from Christianity? What core concepts have changed of the past 15 years? 50 minutes ago, Sara H said: we may circumvent a great number of the challenges that we face when trying to convince others to adopt our worldview. What challenges are you thinking of here? 50 minutes ago, Sara H said: I am of an age where I can recall a period when LDS took pride in conversing with Christians and explaining to them just how the restored gospel is distinct from traditional Christianity Don't we still? I have a daughter serving a mission right now. She's tells people that the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored by modern prophets and teaches people about the word of God contained in the Book of Mormon. 52 minutes ago, Sara H said: I know a lot of LDS people who consider it a badge of honor to not be considered a Christian by a Christian. Personally, I'm really not worried about what labels others stick on us. 54 minutes ago, Sara H said: When I talk about religion with my Christian friends and relatives, one of the most difficult topics for me to broach is the fact that although we accept the New Testament, we only trust it to the extent that it has been accurately translated. This has always been a major obstacle for me and I have it thrown in my face everytime I get deep into a religious discussion. This seems, to me, like an easy discussion topic. Common ground. What is specifically being thrown in your face? 2
CA Steve Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 28 minutes ago, Calm said: @rjohnson7, what is the direction you would like to see the Church take in order to resolve the issue of youth having faith crisis? Remember it needs to include what is happening elsewhere because the youth have access to the Internet now. Calm, did you mean to post this question in this thread? I have not seen any participation in this thread by rjohnson7. 1
Pyreaux Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) I would never concede any ground if it meant also accepting all the premises that our enemies mean by it. If pressed, rather we claim we are the true Christians, and they are either aspiring fellow Christians with us or poser anti-Christs if they are against us. Edited September 7, 2023 by Pyreaux
The Nehor Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 9 minutes ago, Pyreaux said: I would never concede any ground if it meant also accepting all the premises of our enemies mean by it. I rather we claim the truth, we the true Christians and they are either aspiring fellow Christians with us or poser anti-Christs if they are against us. 1
Calm Posted September 7, 2023 Posted September 7, 2023 14 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Calm, did you mean to post this question in this thread? I have not seen any participation in this thread by rjohnson7. That is weird….I just love it when the board starts randomly assigning posts to different threads. Thanks for the alert.
Popular Post Calm Posted September 7, 2023 Popular Post Posted September 7, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sara H said: am of an age where I can recall a period when LDS took pride in conversing with Christians and explaining to them just how the restored gospel is distinct from traditional Christianity. Exactly. Distinct from traditional Christianity, not distinct from Christianity. I don’t know where you have been hanging out or who you have been hanging out with, but we still do explain how we (most members from what I see) are distinct from traditional Christianity all the time. You only have to look at threads here with the always amiable Navidad and our loyal board Catholics, who love us even if we are heretics . The same thing goes on everywhere I go where members discuss the Gospel with nonmembers. For one thing, how could we persuade other Christians to consider conversion if we didn’t have something different to offer, such as salvific ordinances for the dead such as proxy baptisms and sealings of eternal families, God’s authorized priesthood, eternal progression, temples, etc? Edited September 7, 2023 by Calm 7
Malc Posted September 8, 2023 Posted September 8, 2023 6 hours ago, Calm said: Wrong thread I hope it was the right time, though. As they say, if you're going to be in the wrong place, try not to be there at the wrong time too - that's when the worst things always seem to happen 🙃 2
tagriffy Posted September 8, 2023 Posted September 8, 2023 9 hours ago, Sara H said: Because the membership of our church has grown to 17 million people, we are now greater than Judaism, which is the third largest Abrahamic religion, plus a few smaller religions. Why should we care about this? Instead of trying to pass ourselves off as Christians when our teaching is sufficiently distinct from that of Christianity, I believe that we ought to be recognized as a distinct Abrahamic religion rather than continuing to pretend that we are Christian. It is my opinion that if we promoted the doctrine that we often try not to talk about out in the open and put it front and center, more people would find our religion more interesting and not think that we are so weird. The three main Abrahamic religions are all monotheistic, and none of them believe in a heavenly mother. There is no better time than the present to shed light on our heavenly mother and demonstrate that we think that women, like men, have the potential to ascend to godhood. What better time to not just state that we believe women may become God's, but that there are probably already millions, if not billions out there! I'll tell you one thing that Joseph probably didn't realize when he talked about how we believe in multiple gods and that women can also become gods. He probably didn't realize that now that we have the technology to look out into space and see what's out there, we're starting to realize that there's a really good possibility that we're not alone. Joseph designed it to be completely distinct from a central tenet of Christianity, which asserts that there is only one God and no heavenly mother. I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me what could possibly be more impressive than watching 15 male apostles and prophets from our church proclaim to the world that they are servants not only to God the eternal father but also to God the eternal mother. To my mind, however, in order for such a significant shift to occur, it is impossible to do so while at the same time attempting to act as if we're Christians. A beneficial and epoch-making shift for our church would be to publicly acknowledge that we are the third largest Abrahamic religion, displacing Judaism from its current position in third place. The doctrine is there! There's no better time to display our love for heavenly mother and our acceptance of multiple gods. People are looking for hope and love in a world full of negativity, this is when a heavenly mother is needed. There is much that I agree with here. Although for different reasons, I have often thought Mormonism (or at least the branches that retained the Nauvoo teachings) should be classed as the fourth Abrhamic religion. I am in complete agreement with you that we would re-emphasize Joseph's radical teachings.
tagriffy Posted September 8, 2023 Posted September 8, 2023 9 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said: Second, Mormonism owes a huge debt to traditional Christianity. It's not just that we embrace the New Testament. If you look at our 6th Article of Faith, you can see how early Mormonism didn't see itself as the advent of a new Abrahamic religion, it saw itself as a restoration of Christianity and as an heir to the Apostolic Christian faith: Quote We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth. We wouldn't have stop recognizing the huge debt Mormonism owes to Christianity if we allowed ourselves to be classed as a different Abrhamic religion. Traditional Christianity certainly owes a huge debt to Judaism (whether or not it recognizes it). To class Mormonism as a separate Abrahamic faith would just be a recognition that Mormonism has sufficiently diverged from Christianity in the same way Christianity has sufficiently diverged from Judaism to deserve recognition as a separate religion. 1
Sara H Posted September 8, 2023 Author Posted September 8, 2023 16 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said: So we are already seen as a distinct sub-group of Christianity I believe that the area in which you and I disagree the most regarding our faith being only a fraction of Christianity, or a sub-group as you put it, is that I find it extremely difficult to view the gospel that is living and eternal as being a sub-group of anything, including Christianity. Again, I understand why members are OK with being labeled as a sub-group, because it helps us fit in, and many believe that it relieves many of the stresses of being seen as the red-headed step child of Christianity. However, if we're going to keep preaching that we have the only true and living gospel along with all of God's power and authority, at some point we need to step out on our own by shedding the safety of being seen as Christians, in my opinion. It wouldn't be that difficult to start a campaign to announce our exit from Christianity and perclaim that we are in possession of the true and living gospel of Jesus Christ and because of how the world is deteriorating in front of our eyes spiritually, we're breaking off on our own and anyone who wants to follow us are welcome to join our church and take part in making the lord's church the #1 Abrahamic religion in the world. 2
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