Yhwh and the Messiah, are the two the same?

[Pyreaux]

I believe Yhwh is the Son of El Elyon, despite Bible tampering to obscure their distinction. I know the New Testament sees Jesus as Old Testament Messiah, Yhwh himself, the Son of El. I know Isaiah's suffering servant is the Messiah, despite tampering to obscure it.

I'm having a conundrum, which in the Old Testament the Messiah and Yhwh are sometimes spoken separately, like Isaiah 53, the Servant is a Messiah, it says Yhwh is causing the Messiah to suffer. Spoken separately, but I'm sure they are the same person.

There are sometimes when Yhwh is written in as Elyon, perhaps Yhwh meant Elyon, God the Father is causing the Messiah to suffer. Or somehow Yhwh is making the messiah suffer, and can mean he's making his future-self suffer is a permissible reading. I don't know which way to pursue.

In the past, Isaiah has some language issues I've often failed to grasp on my own, like the denial verses. I'm satisfied with the explanations I've read about it, but wouldn't have concluded it on my own and its hard remembering all the tampering and obscure manners of speech off the top of my head to explain something like this. I just hope someone's done the work. Most of my searches on the topic are against me, the Jews seem to be strongly against the Messiah being Yhwh.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Jaydes]

Yes. The Messiah is Yeshua, the human incarnation of YHWH. El Elyon and YHWH are one and the same, and "son" only refers to incarnation, otherwise there is no other usage. There is only one God, not multiple Gods with other Gods for sons. 

YHWH often refers to himself in third person within prophecies and visions, especially as there are often deeper levels to the symbology. 

YHWH is suffering, and by YHWH's one volition. He chose and performed the atonement and undertook the suffering. 

I'm sure the corruptions of english translations and likely the original text don't help things.

[Couganova]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I believe Yhwh is the Son of El Elyon, despite Bible tampering to obscure their distinction.

What are you worried about? It's not like the tampering goes undetected by scholars.

[Couganova]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I believe Yhwh is the Son of El Elyon, despite Bible tampering to obscure their distinction. I know the New Testament sees Jesus as Old Testament Messiah, Yhwh himself, the Son of El. I know Isaiah's suffering servant is the Messiah, despite tampering to obscure it.

I'm having a conundrum, which in the Old Testament the Messiah and Yhwh are sometimes spoken separately, like Isaiah 53, the Servant is a Messiah, it says Yhwh is causing the Messiah to suffer. Spoken separately, but I'm sure they are the same person.

There are sometimes when Yhwh is written in as Elyon, perhaps Yhwh meant Elyon, God the Father is causing the Messiah to suffer. Or somehow Yhwh is making the messiah suffer, and can mean he's making his future-self suffer is a permissible reading. I don't know which way to pursue.

In the past, Isaiah has some language issues I've often failed to grasp on my own, like the denial verses. I'm satisfied with the explanations I've read about it, but wouldn't have concluded it on my own and its hard remembering all the tampering and obscure manners of speech off the top of my head to explain something like this. I just hope someone's done the work. Most of my searches on the topic are against me, the Jews seem to be strongly against the Messiah being Yhwh.

I'll send you a message once I rack up 25 posts.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Couganova said:

I'll send you a message once I rack up 25 posts.

Why do you want to send so many private messages? He made a thread here - why not answer him here?

[Dario_M]

I think they could be the same yeah. 

Matthew and Timothy where also the same right?? With those beautifull phrases.✝️ So yes i do believe so. That it is possible yes. 

[Benjamin McGuire]

20 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I'm having a conundrum, which in the Old Testament the Messiah and Yhwh are sometimes spoken separately, like Isaiah 53, the Servant is a Messiah, it says Yhwh is causing the Messiah to suffer. Spoken separately, but I'm sure they are the same person.

The problem that I think you face is that you want the Old Testament to exist in the same space as modern scripture. You want to interpret it in ways that ancient readers would never have interpreted it. If we take the Old Testament by itself, no one would ever come to the conclusion that you come to. And none of the readers who explain the text in ancient sources come to this conclusion. The only way that you can come to a conclusion like this is when you read the text with the set of assumptions that you bring with you when you read.

When you can wrap your head around this - that scripture is progressive and continuously reinterprets itself (new scripture constantly borrows from older traditions and reincorporates them with new ideas), then you will be able to hold both ideas at the same time without feeling like they are in conflict.

[InCognitus]

On 6/22/2023 at 11:04 AM, Pyreaux said:

I'm having a conundrum, which in the Old Testament the Messiah and Yhwh are sometimes spoken separately, like Isaiah 53, the Servant is a Messiah, it says Yhwh is causing the Messiah to suffer. Spoken separately, but I'm sure they are the same person.

I agree with what Benjamin McGuire said above, but if you want another way to look at it and consider the role of Yhwh as the spokesperson for God the Father, it is not uncommon for scripture to have the representative of God to be speaking the words of God in the first person and make reference to themselves in the third person.  A good example of that is the angel in the book of Revelation, speaking the words of Jesus in the first person to John, and the angel makes reference to himself as the "angel", as in Revelation 22:7-9, 16:

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.... 
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.    (Revelation 22:7–9, 16)

The angel is delivering the message as given him by Jesus and refers to himself as part of the message.

I don't see why Isaiah 53, or Psalm 110 (i.e. the LORD [Yhwh] said to my Lord), or other verses should be any different.

[mfbukowski]

Error.

Irrelevant to the discussion on hand

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Couganova]

Furthermore, Isaiah 53 is the suffering servant, not the Messiah. Some in apologetics circles have pointed out that there is plenty of Jewish tradition that holds the two to be the same person. 

[Couganova]

I will let you know in a private message soon.

[rodheadlee]

On 6/22/2023 at 10:04 AM, Pyreaux said:

I believe Yhwh is the Son of El Elyon, despite Bible tampering to obscure their distinction. I know the New Testament sees Jesus as Old Testament Messiah, Yhwh himself, the Son of El. I know Isaiah's suffering servant is the Messiah, despite tampering to obscure it.

I'm having a conundrum, which in the Old Testament the Messiah and Yhwh are sometimes spoken separately, like Isaiah 53, the Servant is a Messiah, it says Yhwh is causing the Messiah to suffer. Spoken separately, but I'm sure they are the same person.

There are sometimes when Yhwh is written in as Elyon, perhaps Yhwh meant Elyon, God the Father is causing the Messiah to suffer. Or somehow Yhwh is making the messiah suffer, and can mean he's making his future-self suffer is a permissible reading. I don't know which way to pursue.

In the past, Isaiah has some language issues I've often failed to grasp on my own, like the denial verses. I'm satisfied with the explanations I've read about it, but wouldn't have concluded it on my own and its hard remembering all the tampering and obscure manners of speech off the top of my head to explain something like this. I just hope someone's done the work. Most of my searches on the topic are against me, the Jews seem to be strongly against the Messiah being Yhwh.

Before I joined the church I was totally confused about that.

Realizing that Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ for the same person totally made sense.

[Kevin Christensen]

On the question of Jesus as Yhwh, see, for starters, Margaret Barker's "The Second Person." 

https://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

She goes into much more detail in The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. 

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/GreatAngel.htm

For Isaiah 53, there are several things going on.  Barker makes the case that it was originally inspired by a combination of Hezekiah's bout with the plague and the contextual expectations of the Temple rituals, specifically, the atonement rituals.  

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/FourthServantSong.pdf

And there are also variant versions and alternate readings (as well as the effects of different contextualizations) of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 110 which raise interesting questions and possibilities which Barker discusses at length and in detail in The Risen Lord: The Jesus of History as the Christ of Faith. 

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/RisenLord.htm

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Pyreaux]

On 6/26/2023 at 2:01 PM, Kevin Christensen said:

On the question of Jesus as Yhwh, see, for starters, Margaret Barker's "The Second Person." 

https://www.theway.org.uk/back/431Barker.pdf

She goes into much more detail in The Great Angel: A Study of Israel's Second God. 

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/GreatAngel.htm

For Isaiah 53, there are several things going on.  Barker makes the case that it was originally inspired by a combination of Hezekiah's bout with the plague and the contextual expectations of the Temple rituals, specifically, the atonement rituals.  

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Papers/FourthServantSong.pdf

And there are also variant versions and alternate readings (as well as the effects of different contextualizations) of Isaiah 53 and Psalm 110 which raise interesting questions and possibilities which Barker discusses at length and in detail in The Risen Lord: The Jesus of History as the Christ of Faith. 

http://www.margaretbarker.com/Publications/RisenLord.htm

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

I have The Great Angel, but not Risen Lord. I have read her reference a paper on "Hezekiah's Boil", but never seen it, I recall it was only referenced to say Hezekiah might have been punished for a proto-Deuteronomic reform. Not so much that it was the backdrop of Isaiah 53 and the suffering servant could haven been interpreted as Hezekiah mixed with royal figures involved in temple expiation rites. She does explain how Jesus clearly understood Isaiah 53 as about the suffering of himself, and that the Apostles should have understood.

Thank you. I am much closer to understanding it.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

On 6/22/2023 at 12:38 PM, Jaydes said:

Yes. The Messiah is Yeshua, the human incarnation of YHWH. El Elyon and YHWH are one and the same, and "son" only refers to incarnation, otherwise there is no other usage. There is only one God, not multiple Gods with other Gods for sons. 

YHWH often refers to himself in third person within prophecies and visions, especially as there are often deeper levels to the symbology. 

YHWH is suffering, and by YHWH's one volition. He chose and performed the atonement and undertook the suffering. 

I'm sure the corruptions of english translations and likely the original text don't help things.

I waited to respond so as not to distract from my question. I think Elyon, is God the Father, the Most High God, above a Council of 70 Sons of God, Yhwh was made King of the Council on Day One in Genesis 1/Psalm 104 and Yhwh was made Lord God of Israel when Babel fell and 70 nations were made in Genesis 10-11/Deuteronmy 32, and the other Sons of God became lord gods of other nations. So, indeed Jesus is Yhwh in the flesh, claiming to be the God of Israel, but not God the Father. I know that's wild, but as you can see how very distracting the subject could have become if I got into it. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

On 6/26/2023 at 9:02 AM, rodheadlee said:

Before I joined the church I was totally confused about that.

Realizing that Jehovah of the Old Testament and Jesus Christ for the same person totally made sense.

I know, right? Jesus is Jehovah God yet is not God the Father, we get the classic Trinity paradox as both is AND isn't. But if Jehovah is not God the Father, but rather has a Father who is God the Father, everything Jesus says makes so much more sense.

[nuclearfuels]

"Yhwh is making the Messiah suffer, and can mean he's making his future-self suffer is a permissible reading. I don't know which way to pursue."

As Jaydes said: the pre-mortal Messiah, YHWH, chose to endure unimaginable suffering to complete the Atonement and fulfill El's divine plan of happiness.

Your post has actually helped me understand Isaih 53 more. I always thought it was the Father seeing a future tense mortal Son of His, suffering and dying. 

THe way you wrote the OP / questions suggests: JHWH knew and had a complete understanding of what was coming, what was expected, and who (He alone) would be able to do it.  

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

"Yhwh is making the Messiah suffer, and can mean he's making his future-self suffer is a permissible reading. I don't know which way to pursue."

As Jaydes said: the pre-mortal Messiah, YHWH, chose to endure unimaginable suffering to complete the Atonement and fulfill El's divine plan of happiness.

Your post has actually helped me understand Isaih 53 more. I always thought it was the Father seeing a future tense mortal Son of His, suffering and dying. 

THe way you wrote the OP / questions suggests: JHWH knew and had a complete understanding of what was coming, what was expected, and who (He alone) would be able to do it.  

I've not fully absorbed the leads @Kevin Christensen has given, but to attempt to sum up what I've skimmed, the case Margaret Barker seems to layout is the Suffering Servant is indeed a messiah, just not necessarily a specific messiah, or is an archetype of THEE Messiah, which several would be kingly messiahs who've Yhwh has caused to suffer and thus atoned for their people, like perhaps Hezekiah, has filled the role. Which means Yhwh is causing the many distinct messiahs to suffer, from which only the last is himself (OR if one could distinguish the Spirit from the embodied form, as even priest-kings were also quickened/possessed by the Spirit of Yhwh himself through the course of the kingmaking/enthronement ritual), as it's about Jesus insomuch that he himself was also equally an anointed Davidic king who ultimately fulfilled the king's ordinance with his own suffering. The suffering servant, is a messiah figure, a role that ultimately looked forward to him. 

I could be mistaken, I'm still chewing on this...

Edited June 28, 2023 by Pyreaux

[halconero]

I am of the hypothesis that King Benjamin is trying to illustrate the Atonement as an act of Heavenly Kingship vis-a-vis his own experience as a king among his people.

Quote

11 But I am like as yourselves, subject to all manner of infirmities in body and mind; yet I have been chosen by this people, and consecrated by my father, and was suffered by the hand of the Lord that I should be a ruler and a king over this people; and have been kept and preserved by his matchless power, to serve you with all the might, mind and strength which the Lord hath granted unto me.

12 I say unto you that as I have been suffered to spend my days in your service, even up to this time, and have not sought gold nor silver nor any manner of riches of you;

...

14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be [heavy laden], and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne...

...

18 Behold, ye have called me your king; and if I, whom ye call your king, do labor to serve you, then ought not ye to labor to serve one another?

19 And behold also, if I, whom ye call your king, who has spent his days in your service, and yet has been in the service of God, do merit any thanks from you, O how you ought to thank your heavenly King!

I bring that up because in this passage, King Benjamin illustrates that there were things he suffered due to the consecration of his father, or things that were inflicted upon him by his father and the Lord, but there are also things he chose to suffer and labour for himself. In that sense, Christ as Yahweh chose to suffer the things His Father asked of Him, but was in such alignment with His will that he may as well have chosen to inflict them upon himself.

[DonBradley]

On 6/22/2023 at 12:04 PM, Pyreaux said:

I believe Yhwh is the Son of El Elyon, despite Bible tampering to obscure their distinction. I know the New Testament sees Jesus as Old Testament Messiah, Yhwh himself, the Son of El. I know Isaiah's suffering servant is the Messiah, despite tampering to obscure it.

I'm having a conundrum, which in the Old Testament the Messiah and Yhwh are sometimes spoken separately, like Isaiah 53, the Servant is a Messiah, it says Yhwh is causing the Messiah to suffer. Spoken separately, but I'm sure they are the same person.

There are sometimes when Yhwh is written in as Elyon, perhaps Yhwh meant Elyon, God the Father is causing the Messiah to suffer. Or somehow Yhwh is making the messiah suffer, and can mean he's making his future-self suffer is a permissible reading. I don't know which way to pursue.

In the past, Isaiah has some language issues I've often failed to grasp on my own, like the denial verses. I'm satisfied with the explanations I've read about it, but wouldn't have concluded it on my own and its hard remembering all the tampering and obscure manners of speech off the top of my head to explain something like this. I just hope someone's done the work. Most of my searches on the topic are against me, the Jews seem to be strongly against the Messiah being Yhwh.

 

Pyreaux,

Great questions.

You're right, of course, that the Hebrew Bible makes a distinction here. The whole idea of the Messiah is that he is "the anointed of the LORD"--i.e., "the anointed of YHWH."

Recognizing that "the LORD" in the KJV means YHWH, we can substitute YHWH in all passages that use "LORD."

One such passage is Isaiah 61:1:

"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because YHWH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound"

Jesus applied this passage to himself at the beginning of his ministry in Luke 4:

16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of YHWH is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of YHWH. 20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

Jesus thus declares himself to have been anointed by YHWH.

Another such passage is Psalm 110:1:

"YHWH said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."

Jesus also used this passage in relation to himself:

Matthew 22:

42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

44 YHWH said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

 

Jesus thus presents David's reference to "my Lord" as referring to the Messiah-- to whom YHWH said, "Sit thou on my right hand...."

To argue that Jesus is sitting at his own right hand would seem every bit as silly as the "Trinitarian" [sic - modalist] views Latter-day Saints often refute, which would have Jesus sitting at his own right hand when Stephen sees the Son seated beside the Father. YHWH--as referred to here--is not the Son/Messiah but the Father.

However, Jesus also identifies himself with YHWH, as in John 8:

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM [YHWH].

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

So, rather than the simple equation of Elohim with the Father and YHWH with the Son, it would appear that both the Father and the Son are identified in scripture with YHWH.

Don

[nuclearfuels]

On 6/27/2023 at 9:42 PM, Pyreaux said:

to attempt to sum up what I've skimmed

Excellent. 

I'm not sure who on this board but someone a few months back shared a comment that the title Messiah and Savior are callings. 

If so, YHWH seeing the suffering of His Mortal Messiah self as well as future (and previous?) Messiah's whom He may have seen in vision His future role in ordaining - that makes sense to me.

And here I thought Isiah was deep prior to learning about your inquiry.

The Son doeth nothing but what He seeth the Father doeth. 

Worlds without end.

D7C 130:10

https://site.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130?lang=eng&adobe_mc_ref=https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130?lang=eng&adobe_mc_sdid=SDID=54767DD928B05C20-78F48A4F5F768696|MCORGID=66C5485451E56AAE0A490D45%40AdobeOrg|TS=1688303747&v=V01 

Edited July 2, 2023 by nuclearfuels

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, DonBradley said:

So, rather than the simple equation of Elohim with the Father and YHWH with the Son, it would appear that both the Father and the Son are identified in scripture with YHWH.

In a word, yep!.