IRS "Whistleblower" David A. Nielsen to Appear on 60 Minutes

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Somewhere I listened to a podcast that had a tax guy or accountant say that it was one of the biggest fines for tax violations ever, which really surprised me.

I would like to see his reasoning because from what I have read even from nonmembers it wasn’t remarkable.  It wasn’t a tax violation either.  It was an SEC issue.

Correct. On both counts.

And in terms of SEC fines, $5M doesn't come close to being one of the biggest fines ever. Here's a brief sampling [source]:

• Merrill Lynch – $100 million
• Mizuho Financial Group – $127.5 million
• Goldman Sachs- $550 million
• Eli Lilly & Co. – $1.42 billion
• UBS AG – $1.5 billion
• Abbott Laboratories – $1.6 billion
• SAC Capital – $1.8 billion
• Siemens – $1.9 billion
• HSBC Holdings – $1.9 billion
• Pfizer – $2.3 billion
• GlaxoSmithKline – $3 billion
• Bank of America – $3.6 billion
• BP – $4.5 billion
• Wells Fargo & Co, JP Morgan, and Bank of America [collectively] – $9.3 billion
• JP Morgan Chase – $13 billion

Nothing the church did was market distorting in a way that would have any meaningful impact on anybody, which it why they were given a mundane slap on the wrist by the SEC: $1M for the church's mishandling and $4M for EPA (because they were the ones who actually did it, and should have known better).

 

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

It is no different hiding the company or the money too well. They are saying on the forms the company had the money when it didn’t. So if the company was hidden too well so was the money. 
 

That said any manager being told to sign a form and not being allowed to see it should have reported that to the sec. Thing is. There isn’t one licensed soul at EP who doesn’t know what a 13F is. If they are presented one and being told they can’t see the rest of the form they should have been personally fined if not lose their license if they signed it. Besides they can look it up online and see what it was anyway. Stupid and or corrupt. I say both in any one of these signing managers cases. 

Most of the people who signed the 13F forms were not licensed managers.  The way the LLCs were set up, they had a "business manager".  This "business manager" had no oversight or control of the money that the LLCs supposedly managed.  They were just there to file and sign government reports (like the 13F).  So the people signing the documents never expected to look at the money.  They never expected to do anything besides do some government documents.  They were given the 13F forms and told to sign them.

Quote

Each Clone LLC was set up with a “Business Manager,” who, according to the terms of the LLC agreements, had responsibility for “the preparation and filing of the Company’s governmental reports, returns, notices and the like, including reports required by law of investment managers or entities exercising investment discretion.” However, the Business Managers performed no functions for the Clone LLCs outside of signing the Form 13F signature pages each quarter.

[Meadowchik]

From the Exponent II:

"What Would Jesus Think About the 60 Minutes Story? - We have to be willing to walk right into poverty to pay our tithing to the church, yet they are somehow justified in holding massive amounts of wealth just for their own feelings of security? What if a member told their bishop they were no longer paying tithing because they were saving it for their own retirement, just like the church isn’t using much of its own money to bless the poor because it’s saving it for its own future use? The Jesus I know didn’t ask his followers to pay tithing to him in their poverty to enable him to invest in multi-billion dollar business ventures."

[jkwilliams]

7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

From the Exponent II:

"What Would Jesus Think About the 60 Minutes Story? - We have to be willing to walk right into poverty to pay our tithing to the church, yet they are somehow justified in holding massive amounts of wealth just for their own feelings of security? What if a member told their bishop they were no longer paying tithing because they were saving it for their own retirement, just like the church isn’t using much of its own money to bless the poor because it’s saving it for its own future use? The Jesus I know didn’t ask his followers to pay tithing to him in their poverty to enable him to invest in multi-billion dollar business ventures."

It’s interesting that I know at least half a dozen otherwise active LDS who tell me they have stopped paying tithing over this, feeling like the church expects honesty from them but doesn’t practice it. Of course, not everyone can contort themselves to say the SEC, not the church, is “in the wrong.” 

[smac97]

33 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

From the Exponent II:

"What Would Jesus Think About the 60 Minutes Story? - We have to be willing to walk right into poverty to pay our tithing to the church,

What's this "we" and "our?"

33 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

yet they are somehow justified in holding massive amounts of wealth just for their own feelings of security?

What's this "they" and "their?"

33 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

What if a member told their bishop they were no longer paying tithing because they were saving it for their own retirement, just like the church isn’t using much of its own money to bless the poor because it’s saving it for its own future use?

The "just like" is not warranted, I think.

First, we are under covenant to pay tithing.

Second, that obligation is not contingent on us approving how those with stewardship manages tithes.  (I suspect the folks at Exponent II pay their taxes, notwithstanding government mismanagement, corruption, waste, etc., and the Church is doing far better.)

Third, "the church" has all sorts of mandates, including "bless{ing} the poor," and it is doing do.

33 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

The Jesus I know didn’t ask his followers to pay tithing to him in their poverty to enable him to invest in multi-billion dollar business ventures."

Facile.

Appeal to emotion.

Fallacy of Faulty Analogy.

Fallacy of False Equivalence.

Probably a few more.

Thanks,

-Smac

[jkwilliams]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

What's this "we" and "our?"

What's this "they" and "their?"

The "just like" is not warranted, I think.

First, we are under covenant to pay tithing.

Second, that obligation is not contingent on us approving how those with stewardship manages tithes.  (I suspect the folks at Exponent II pay their taxes, notwithstanding government mismanagement, corruption, waste, etc., and the Church is doing far better.)

Third, "the church" has all sorts of mandates, including "bless{ing} the poor," and it is doing do.

Facile.

Appeal to emotion.

Fallacy of Faulty Analogy.

Fallacy of False Equivalence.

Probably a few more.

Thanks,

-Smac

That’s the nice thing about feelings and conscience: they don’t depend on a linear, point-by-point legalistic rebuttal. An awful lot of people believe, based on the evidence as well as their conscience, that the church did wrong. You can wave them off as over-emotional or whatever, but conscience (that pesky light of Christ) is a powerful thing. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by jkwilliams

[Stormin' Mormon]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

From the Exponent II:

"What Would Jesus Think About the 60 Minutes Story? - We have to be willing to walk right into poverty to pay our tithing to the church, yet they are somehow justified in holding massive amounts of wealth just for their own feelings of security? What if a member told their bishop they were no longer paying tithing because they were saving it for their own retirement, just like the church isn’t using much of its own money to bless the poor because it’s saving it for its own future use? The Jesus I know didn’t ask his followers to pay tithing to him in their poverty to enable him to invest in multi-billion dollar business ventures."

This is a perspective that views tithing as a business transaction, rather than a transformative act of sacrifice. I pay tithing not because the recipient (God, the Church, EPA) needs my money, but because doing so changes me in a fundamental way. 

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

This is a perspective that views tithing as a business transaction, rather than a transformative act of sacrifice. I pay tithing not because the recipient (God, the Church, EPA) needs my money, but because doing so changes me in a fundamental way. 

To be fair, a lot of church leaders have taught it as a transaction, a debt, fire insurance, and so on. 

[carbon dioxide]

At base level, tithing is a commandment.   Some people forget this.   Those people who decide not to pay tithing because they see the church does not need it don't understand that they are harming themselves in the end.  God has never indicated that a person can excuse themselves from the commandment when the decide the church has enough money.  When a person pays, they have fulfilled their part of the commandment.  What the church does with the money really should not be their concern as they are not accountable to God what is done with the money.  They people who are accountable are those in the church who administer or use the money.    So when these people have a meeting with the Lord and the Lord asks them if they paid their tithing and they respond with some excuse like "I stopped paying because the Church had a lot of wealth and I did not like how the church spent the funds", they can expect a negative outcome from the Lord for such excuses.

Edited May 20, 2023 by carbon dioxide

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, carbon dioxide said:

At base level, tithing is a commandment.   Some people forget this.   Those people who decide not to pay tithing because they see the church does not need it don't understand that they are harming themselves in the end.  God has never indicated that a person can excuse themselves from the commandment when the decide the church has enough money.  When a person pays, they have fulfilled their part of the commandment.  What the church does with the money really should not be their concern as they are not accountable to God what is done with the money.  They people who are accountable are those in the church who administer or use the money.    So when these people have a meeting with the Lord and the Lord asks them if they paid their tithing and they respond with some excuse like "I stopped paying because the Church had a lot of wealth and I did not like how the church spent the funds", they can expect a negative outcome from the Lord for such excuses.

It’s always possible that the Lord has nothing to do with it. 

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

Correct. On both counts.

And in terms of SEC fines, $5M doesn't come close to being one of the biggest fines ever. Here's a brief sampling [source]:

• Merrill Lynch – $100 million
• Mizuho Financial Group – $127.5 million
• Goldman Sachs- $550 million
• Eli Lilly & Co. – $1.42 billion
• UBS AG – $1.5 billion
• Abbott Laboratories – $1.6 billion
• SAC Capital – $1.8 billion
• Siemens – $1.9 billion
• HSBC Holdings – $1.9 billion
• Pfizer – $2.3 billion
• GlaxoSmithKline – $3 billion
• Bank of America – $3.6 billion
• BP – $4.5 billion
• Wells Fargo & Co, JP Morgan, and Bank of America [collectively] – $9.3 billion
• JP Morgan Chase – $13 billion

Nothing the church did was market distorting in a way that would have any meaningful impact on anybody, which it why they were given a mundane slap on the wrist by the SEC: $1M for the church's mishandling and $4M for EPA (because they were the ones who actually did it, and should have known better).

 

Boy was I way off!

[Tacenda]

57 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

At base level, tithing is a commandment.   Some people forget this.   Those people who decide not to pay tithing because they see the church does not need it don't understand that they are harming themselves in the end.  God has never indicated that a person can excuse themselves from the commandment when the decide the church has enough money.  When a person pays, they have fulfilled their part of the commandment.  What the church does with the money really should not be their concern as they are not accountable to God what is done with the money.  They people who are accountable are those in the church who administer or use the money.    So when these people have a meeting with the Lord and the Lord asks them if they paid their tithing and they respond with some excuse like "I stopped paying because the Church had a lot of wealth and I did not like how the church spent the funds", they can expect a negative outcome from the Lord for such excuses.

Well, what would the Lord say to a church that has this amount of money and the out put to love and care for their neighbor is extremely low, monetarily wise?

I happen to not give much to what the bible says about tithing, honestly. I think the Lord is more concerned with feeding and caring for the poor and needy, not giving to a church that has not done what it purports for the members to do. It should match the tithing that it brings in at least. And give more to humanitarian needs. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Tacenda

[Analytics]

7 hours ago, webbles said:

The SEC talked to them a few months before they fixed their filing.  I think that is far more likely the cause of the change. 

Why do you think the SEC talked to them at that point in time? Did it have something to do with the Nielsen letter, or is the timing a coincidence?

[jkwilliams]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Boy was I way off!

Nonetheless some people want us to believe that an organization that was fined $5 million for very specific reasons didn’t do anything amiss—in fact, it was the SEC that was in the wrong.  🙄🙄🙄

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

To be fair, a lot of church leaders have taught it as a transaction, a debt, fire insurance, and so on. 

Perhaps local leaders have used such terms but I don't know of any general authorities who have.

[Diamondhands69]

3 hours ago, webbles said:

They were given the 13F forms and told to sign them.

According to the sec report the managers were only given the signature pages. 
 

I guess they found either the dumbest or most loyal 13 people to sign.

[Diamondhands69]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

It’s interesting that I know at least half a dozen otherwise active LDS who tell me they have stopped paying tithing over this, feeling like the church expects honesty from them but doesn’t practice it. Of course, not everyone can contort themselves to say the SEC, not the church, is “in the wrong.” 

Make it 7

[Diamondhands69]

19 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Nonetheless some people want us to believe that an organization that was fined $5 million for very specific reasons didn’t do anything amiss—in fact, it was the SEC that was in the wrong.  🙄🙄🙄

For 5mil the church sold off their integrity. If they didn’t go what was alleged, they should have fought it to the end. 
 

I’m quite positive they routinely stroke checks for molestation  cases which far exceed $5mil.  Why not go all out in a public court and prove your innocence?! No matter the cost. 

[jkwilliams]

8 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Perhaps local leaders have used such terms but I don't know of any general authorities who have.

“I often wonder if we realize that paying our tithing does not represent giving gifts to the Lord and the Church. Paying tithing is discharging a debt to the Lord.” N. Eldon Tanner

“Some years ago one of our brethren spoke of the payment of tithing as ‘fire insurance’; that statement evoked laughter. Nonetheless, the word of the Lord is clear that those who do not keep the commandments and observe the laws of God shall be burned at the time of his coming.” Gordon B. Hinckley

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

For 5mil the church sold off their integrity. If they didn’t go what was alleged, they should have fought it to the end. 
 

I’m quite positive they routinely stroke checks for molestation  cases which far exceed $5mil.  Why not go all out in a public court and prove your innocence?! No matter the cost. 

I doubt this was done with evil intent, but it seems pretty clear they violated SEC regulations in an effort to conceal the extent of their financial holdings. I haven’t paid tithing in several years, so I don’t much care. I just find it interesting that I know people in the church who feel so strongly that they’ve stopped paying tithing. Whatever the intent, the secrecy—ahem, confidentiality—seems to have backfired. 

[Diamondhands69]

21 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I doubt this was done with evil intent, but it seems pretty clear they violated SEC regulations in an effort to conceal the extent of their financial holdings. I haven’t paid tithing in several years, so I don’t much care. I just find it interesting that I know people in the church who feel so strongly that they’ve stopped paying tithing. Whatever the intent, the secrecy—ahem, confidentiality—seems to have backfired. 

Lying and creating a false set of companies with the intent of deceiving is evil. 
 

“The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?id=p6&lang=eng#p6

 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Lying and creating a false set of companies with the intent of deceiving is evil. 
 

“The Lord is not pleased with such dishonesty, and we will have to account for our lies. Satan would have us believe it is all right to lie. He says, “Yea, lie a little; … there is no harm in this” (2 Nephi 28:8). Satan encourages us to justify our lies to ourselves. Honest people will recognize Satan’s temptations and will speak the whole truth, even if it seems to be to their disadvantage.”

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-31-honesty?id=p6&lang=eng#p6

 

What I mean is that I don’t think they set out to be deceptive or dishonest. But I do agree that’s how it ended up. Somehow you can’t say that without being accused of bad faith and evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed. But wrong is wrong. 

[Diamondhands69]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

What I mean is that I don’t think they set out to be deceptive or dishonest. But I do agree that’s how it ended up. Somehow you can’t say that without being accused of bad faith and evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed. But wrong is wrong. 

Agreed

CTR

[JAHS]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

“I often wonder if we realize that paying our tithing does not represent giving gifts to the Lord and the Church. Paying tithing is discharging a debt to the Lord.” N. Eldon Tanner

“Some years ago one of our brethren spoke of the payment of tithing as ‘fire insurance’; that statement evoked laughter. Nonetheless, the word of the Lord is clear that those who do not keep the commandments and observe the laws of God shall be burned at the time of his coming.” Gordon B. Hinckley

The "fire insurance" label has always been said in jest. President Hinckley is referring to all commandments. The word debt I understand in the sense that the tithing we pay is money that already belongs to the Lord and we are just handing back to Him because of the love we have for Him. But I think debt is a poor choice of words to use because it's not like we borrowed it to use it to pay for anything. 

[Diamondhands69]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

Perhaps local leaders have used such terms but I don't know of any general authorities who have.

I beg to differ:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2010-07-0057-those-tithed-not-burned-at-his-coming?lang=eng