IRS "Whistleblower" David A. Nielsen to Appear on 60 Minutes

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, Stormin' Mormon said:

This is a perspective that views tithing as a business transaction, rather than a transformative act of sacrifice. 

It does but perhaps not how you think, specifically that the church is treating tithing as a business rather than a transformative act of sacrifice.

 

[Meadowchik]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

At base level, tithing is a commandment.   Some people forget this.   Those people who decide not to pay tithing because they see the church does not need it don't understand that they are harming themselves in the end.  God has never indicated that a person can excuse themselves from the commandment when the decide the church has enough money.  When a person pays, they have fulfilled their part of the commandment.  What the church does with the money really should not be their concern as they are not accountable to God what is done with the money.  They people who are accountable are those in the church who administer or use the money.    So when these people have a meeting with the Lord and the Lord asks them if they paid their tithing and they respond with some excuse like "I stopped paying because the Church had a lot of wealth and I did not like how the church spent the funds", they can expect a negative outcome from the Lord for such excuses.

These sound like a lot of unspoken rules about paying tithing, and unfortunately they aren't morally consistent.

First, if you take tithing as a base principle it is to give of your means to the Lord. There can be uncountable ways to do that and only one of them is giving it to one specific church. 

Second there's nothing in the principle of giving means meant for the Lord and then dropping the ball and wiping our hands of responsibility. On the contrary, because it's meant for the Lord we would need to assure ourselves of where it goes.

There's a much higher likelihood that a good God would want people to be good stewards of the means they dedicate to God, and that those who stop tithing to one cause in order and pay to a cause they can better confirm are being good stewards. Indeed they are doing much more to obey the spirit and the letter of the law.

Finally it's quite possible that if a church has mishandled tithes, that not only that church's leaders but that church's membership will fall under condemnation.

We should know where our means go when they are tithed, and if we don't know and don't try to know, and don't make corrective action when we cannot know or when we know it's mishandled, that's on us.

[Amulek]

13 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Boy was I way off!

Not you personally. The fellow you overheard on that podcast is the one who was in error. 

[carbon dioxide]

19 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

These sound like a lot of unspoken rules about paying tithing, and unfortunately they aren't morally consistent.

First, if you take tithing as a base principle it is to give of your means to the Lord. There can be uncountable ways to do that and only one of them is giving it to one specific church. 

Second there's nothing in the principle of giving means meant for the Lord and then dropping the ball and wiping our hands of responsibility. On the contrary, because it's meant for the Lord we would need to assure ourselves of where it goes.

There's a much higher likelihood that a good God would want people to be good stewards of the means they dedicate to God, and that those who stop tithing to one cause in order and pay to a cause they can better confirm are being good stewards. Indeed they are doing much more to obey the spirit and the letter of the law.

Finally it's quite possible that if a church has mishandled tithes, that not only that church's leaders but that church's membership will fall under condemnation.

We should know where our means go when they are tithed, and if we don't know and don't try to know, and don't make corrective action when we cannot know or when we know it's mishandled, that's on us.

I understand your point by my point is an attitude that some people have that they think the commandment comes with triggers where they can stop paying tithing if the accounts get too large or they are not getting a detailed accounting of where stuff is going.   Given that fact that there are millions in the church and each individual has their own ideas of what the Church should be spending, a detailed accounting will never make everyone happy. There is always going to be a group that thinks the Church is spending too much on this and not enough of that.  It will be a constant pain the butt for the church to deal with to make everyone happy.   I don't mind more financial transparency.   I think it would serve the the churches interest to do so.  However I see no indication that the Church is spending recklessly on things or people are personally profiting on stuff.  I see no evidence that anyone has bought a mansion or a Lamborghini in church funds. Growing wealth is a being a good steward over the funds.   If only the government would approach money issues like the Church, we would not be 31 trillion in debt as a nation.  We would be balancing the budget but instead our government spends far worse than drunken sailors. 

[Rain]

18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

I understand your point by my point is an attitude that some people have that they think the commandment comes with triggers where they can stop paying tithing if the accounts get too large or they are not getting a detailed accounting of where stuff is going. 

I agree that we shouldn't be triggered or reactionary to those kind of things and just stop paying, but I don't think we can just assume it is a trigger for everyone.  Some may really try to study it out with God and based on those feelings may choose to stop or change how they give and the "trigger" may be the thing where they really start to ask God about it.

18 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

  Given that fact that there are millions in the church and each individual has their own ideas of what the Church should be spending, a detailed accounting will never make everyone happy. There is always going to be a group that thinks the Church is spending too much on this and not enough of that.  It will be a constant pain the butt for the church to deal with to make everyone happy.   I don't mind more financial transparency.   I think it would serve the the churches interest to do so.  However I see no indication that the Church is spending recklessly on things or people are personally profiting on stuff.  I see no evidence that anyone has bought a mansion or a Lamborghini in church funds. Growing wealth is a being a good steward over the funds.   If only the government would approach money issues like the Church, we would not be 31 trillion in debt as a nation.  We would be balancing the budget but instead our government spends far worse than drunken sailors.