"Lying for the Lord"

[Hamilton Porter]

I never heard the phrase growing up. The first time I heard it was in Stephen E. Robinson's New Testament class, where he talked about how Matthew made stuff up in order to make it look like Jesus fulfilled prophesy. And he explicitly said not to follow Matthew's example. "You don't need to lie for the Lord, he can take care of himself."

I hear critics say that a lot, so I decided to Google it this morning. Apparently, it's a variant of "lying for Jesus" that people accuse Christians of doing. Then there was stuff about Paul H. Dunn, the GA who made up stories about playing Major League Baseball, and then examples from Joseph Smith and Church history, blah blah blah. Nothing about a systematic teaching of the Church.

Just a smear campaign, anyway. Howard Hughes and Elon Musk don't ask Mormons to handle their money because we have a reputation for it. The CIA doesn't hire us in droves due to lack of integrity. 

[Pyreaux]

It's an extremely broad definition to include any attempt by the church to not go out of their way to teach complex or mystery topics, as lying. When a leader doesn't recommend reading anti-Mormon literature, they are shielding you from the "truth". When a lay teacher says any commonly said, outdated, possibly untrue LDS trope or myth, is somehow evidence the institution lied to us all. LDS people are very honest with others and themselves about their own feelings, they lie to themselves, missionaries somehow invoke these feelings. Intuition and feelings are only valid if they lead you out of Mormonism.

Edited April 14, 2023 by Pyreaux

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I never heard the phrase growing up. The first time I heard it was in Stephen E. Robinson's New Testament class, where he talked about how Matthew made stuff up in order to make it look like Jesus fulfilled prophesy. And he explicitly said not to follow Matthew's example. "You don't need to lie for the Lord, he can take care of himself."

I hear critics say that a lot, so I decided to Google it this morning. Apparently, it's a variant of "lying for Jesus" that people accuse Christians of doing. Then there was stuff about Paul H. Dunn, the GA who made up stories about playing Major League Baseball, and then examples from Joseph Smith and Church history, blah blah blah. Nothing about a systematic teaching of the Church.

Just a smear campaign, anyway. Howard Hughes and Elon Musk don't ask Mormons to handle their money because we have a reputation for it. The CIA doesn't hire us in droves due to lack of integrity. 

I’ve heard it applied to non Latter-day Saints as well as LDS. 

[The Nehor]

I’ve heard phrases like this used by Christians to justify lying to people because the lies might lead them to make ‘correct’ decisions.

[Pyreaux]

I'm reminded of the Buddhist parable of the burning house (Lotus Sutra 3), a father, in order to save his children from a house fire, lies to them by telling them he has gifts waiting for them outside. It's basically an example what sorts of "skillful means" are permissible. A larger lesson is taught about the different Buddhist paths are all just different vehicles that are in reality different "skillful means" within the one vehicle of the Mahayana. A lie, a teaching of the Dharma by skillful means, is for the purpose of creating steppingstones for a supreme awakening, to attain levels of learning, realization, or bodhisattva (becoming a Buddha).

Edited April 14, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Hamilton Porter]

Now I'm getting messages saying Mormons are plotting world domination.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Now I'm getting messages saying Mormons are plotting world domination.

Without me? Again?

I am starting to feel solidarity with this guy: https://www.theonion.com/local-jew-feels-left-out-of-worldwide-jewish-conspiracy-1819564292

Quote

 

It is an hour past sunset on a brisk Thursday night, and, like their brethren around the globe, the Jews of this affluent Detroit suburb are gathered in synagogues, busily hatching plots for world domination through financial chicanery and media influence. But for Seth Nussbaum, it will be just another lonely evening.

"For some reason, they've decided to leave me out of the worldwide Jewish conspiracy," said Nussbaum, a 34-year-old computer programmer. "And I can't say it doesn't hurt."

While his fellow Jews are controlling the flow of billions of dollars of international currency and brokering multi million-dollar entertainment deals, on this quiet night Nussbaum is making himself a frozen pizza and watching ER, far removed from any money beyond the $28,000 annual salary he receives from his job at Cyntech Industries.

"Who's to say I wouldn't enjoy hoarding a little gold every now and then?" he said, his voice tinged with bitterness. "Believe me, I'd love to be able to sneak around behind the scenes like the Elders of Zion, pulling the strings and holding the real power in society. But I guess when it comes to working the Jerusalem-New York-L.A. triangle, I just wasn't one of the chosen people."

Unlike millions of other Jews around the world, Nussbaum holds no sway over the media, has no powerful friends within the Wall Street banking community or the Trilateral Commission, and has never run a major Hollywood studio.

Though its influence stretches to all corners of the globe, the worldwide Jewish conspiracy has, for mysterious reasons, neglected to include Southfield, MI, computer programmer Seth Nussbaum.

In fact, Nussbaum doesn't even own so much as his own production company. "Spielberg, Geffen, Ovitz, Eisner, Katzenberg—those are the Jews who control Hollywood," Nussbaum said. "And there's countless other Jews calling the shots at every level of the entertainment industry, from agents to producers to directors. But me? I probably couldn't even get the studio backing for a $15 to $20 million romantic comedy with a mid-level star like Matthew Broderick."

And despite being a regular subscriber to The New York Times for seven years, Nussbaum has no powerful connections among the Jews who own that and every other newspaper in the United States.

"As a left-leaning Jew, I should enjoy vast influence over the press. I should be able use the papers and television stations I own to forward my biased, liberal Jewish agenda and get Israel-supporting Democratic candidates elected to Congress," said Nussbaum, sitting on the old futon he uses as a couch. "But somehow, that's just not the case."

Spurned by his own kind, Nussbaum has not even been able to gain admittance into a secondary world-domination conspiracy like the Masons. "They turned down my application," he said, sighing deeply, "when they found out I was Jewish. I guess for now I'll just have to resign myself to being Seth Nussbaum, computer programmer and powerless Jew."

 

It does hurt a little.

[JLHPROF]

26 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

Now I'm getting messages saying Mormons are plotting world domination.

Kind of true...

[JLHPROF]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:30 AM, Hamilton Porter said:

I never heard the phrase growing up. The first time I heard it was in Stephen E. Robinson's New Testament class, where he talked about how Matthew made stuff up in order to make it look like Jesus fulfilled prophesy. And he explicitly said not to follow Matthew's example. "You don't need to lie for the Lord, he can take care of himself."

I hear critics say that a lot, so I decided to Google it this morning. Apparently, it's a variant of "lying for Jesus" that people accuse Christians of doing. Then there was stuff about Paul H. Dunn, the GA who made up stories about playing Major League Baseball, and then examples from Joseph Smith and Church history, blah blah blah. Nothing about a systematic teaching of the Church.

Just a smear campaign, anyway. Howard Hughes and Elon Musk don't ask Mormons to handle their money because we have a reputation for it. The CIA doesn't hire us in droves due to lack of integrity. 

The last time I heard it was from the "Joseph didn't practice polygamy" crowd.

Because he repeatedly is on record saying he didn't so either he wasn't actually a polygamist (their view) or he was lying for the Lord and not a prophet as a result.

[Calm]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:30 AM, Hamilton Porter said:

The CIA doesn't hire us in droves due to lack of integrity. 

My guess is the foreign experiences and language abilities of our former missionaries have a lot to do with that plus patriotism is pretty strong in our faith, strange as that seems at times.  Then there is the lower usage of drugs.

Also:

Quote

There is no evidence that Latter-day Saints disproportionally work for the CIA.

https://mormonr.org/qnas/H2jKm/cia_and_the_church?

Edited April 15, 2023 by Calm

[Hamilton Porter]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

My guess is the foreign experiences and language abilities of our former missionaries have a lot to do with that plus patriotism is pretty strong in our faith, strange as that seems at times.

Also:

https://mormonr.org/qnas/H2jKm/cia_and_the_church?

🤣🤣🤣

Whoever wrote that doesn't live in the DC area.

 

[Hamilton Porter]

Quote

 

Is there a scriptural precedent for the use of intelligence-gathering?

Yes, there is. In the Old Testament, when Moses[BIO] prepared to invade Canaan, he commissioned twelve spies to conduct espionage against Canaanites.[4] Similarly, in the Book of Mormon, Captain Moroni[BIO] "sent spies into the wilderness to watch their camp."[5] Captain Moroni's intelligence-gathering effort proved successful.[6]

 

This is interesting. The Mossad's motto comes from the Old Testament.

Edited April 15, 2023 by Hamilton Porter

[Hamilton Porter]

 

The only direct pieces of evidence supporting this are public statements made by CIA recruiters indicating that have had success recruiting from BYU.[1]

Duh that's because CIA/NSA/some FBI analysts can't tell you they work for them, so there's no way to know.

 

[Smiley McGee]

On 4/14/2023 at 10:30 AM, Hamilton Porter said:

Nothing about a systematic teaching of the Church.

Well what were you expecting? Only an organization led by idiots would allow such a teaching to be uncovered by some half-baked internet sleuthing. 
 

I guess I don’t understand why such an idea as “lying for the Lord” is so unexpected or unbelievable. I don’t think the highest quorums of the church are staffed with pathological liars, but I also don’t think they’re naive little Boy Scouts who cannot tell a lie. These are highly motivated, driven leaders who will work themselves to death to achieve their goals. I also think they are intelligent enough to understand that the optics of some of our doctrines, policies, and a lot of our history can hinder the accomplishment of those goals. Why wouldn’t they participate in a little subterfuge? Really, wouldn’t you worry about the competence of leadership if all those nice, romanticized paintings of Joseph Smith hanging in Church buildings were replaced with paintings of him burying his face in a hat? 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Smiley McGee

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

 

The only direct pieces of evidence supporting this are public statements made by CIA recruiters indicating that have had success recruiting from BYU.[1]

Duh that's because CIA/NSA/some FBI analysts can't tell you they work for them, so there's no way to know.

 

Of course, so saying we have more than ‘our natural portion’ is a guess at best.

https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/1/23403019/fact-or-fiction-the-truth-about-fbi-cia-latter-day-saints-mormons

Quote

While it’s easy to find such rumors, it’s much more difficult to substantiate them. 

After all, the percentage of church members working for government intelligence and security agencies has never been revealed and could never be known for certain for the simple reason that religious affiliation is not reported (nor recorded) by any such agency. To do so could violate the law. What’s more, multiple former agents and recruiters told me that even though many members of the church may work at the CIA and FBI, that doesn’t mean they were recruited because of their religious affiliations. Rather, they insist, it’s their personal skills, experience and willingness to serve that makes them appealing.…

“In all my years with the FBI, I never observed nor heard of an FBI recruiter targeting individuals, colleges, universities or religious groups for individuals of specific religions or affiliations,” he told me. 

And Rhonda Glover Reese, a 34-year veteran of the FBI, echoed Ahearn’s sentiments, saying she was a recruiter throughout most of her career with the bureau and that, “religious affiliation is never considered and likely never even known during the recruitment process.”

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Calm

[Hamilton Porter]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Of course, so saying we have more than ‘our natural portion’ is a guess at best.

https://www.deseret.com/2022/11/1/23403019/fact-or-fiction-the-truth-about-fbi-cia-latter-day-saints-mormons

 

I can tell you they recruit on BYU campus, and when I told them my GPA and what language I spoke, they gave me an interview the next day.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Hamilton Porter said:

I can tell you they recruit on BYU campus, and when I told them my GPA and what language I spoke, they gave me an interview the next day.

Recruiting at BYU is apparently not that big of a deal…

Quote

Last year, the CIA recruited at about 1,000 U.S. campuses

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-mar-29-me-cia29-story.html

[Hamilton Porter]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Recruiting at BYU is apparently not that big of a deal…

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2009-mar-29-me-cia29-story.htm

How about conducting interviews on spot?

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Hamilton Porter said:

How about conducting interviews on spot?

Sounds efficient. I would have thought that a typical approach.  Not sure how to find out if that is so or not.

Quote

However, it’s not only the ultra-exclusive – and expensive – Ivy League universities that CIA recruiters visit. Nowadays, the CIA also sends recruiters to less influential local colleges, CNBC News reported. Technical schools host informational events like presentations, question-and-answer sessions and opportunities for one-on-one career advice from current CIA agents. Even community colleges host CIA recruitments events

https://www.degreequery.com/criminal-justice-degrees/what-schools-does-the-cia-recruit-from-the-most/

Edited April 16, 2023 by Calm

[Hamilton Porter]

On 4/14/2023 at 3:06 PM, The Nehor said:

I’ve heard phrases like this used by Christians to justify lying to people because the lies might lead them to make ‘correct’ decisions.

There seems to be a lot of Christians online who claim to be ex Mormons but couldn't tell you a damn thing about Mormonism. And considering how few Mormons actually go that route...

[InCognitus]

On 4/14/2023 at 11:30 AM, Hamilton Porter said:

I never heard the phrase growing up. The first time I heard it was in Stephen E. Robinson's New Testament class, where he talked about how Matthew made stuff up in order to make it look like Jesus fulfilled prophesy. And he explicitly said not to follow Matthew's example. "You don't need to lie for the Lord, he can take care of himself."

I hear critics say that a lot, so I decided to Google it this morning. Apparently, it's a variant of "lying for Jesus" that people accuse Christians of doing. Then there was stuff about Paul H. Dunn, the GA who made up stories about playing Major League Baseball, and then examples from Joseph Smith and Church history, blah blah blah. Nothing about a systematic teaching of the Church.

Just a smear campaign, anyway. Howard Hughes and Elon Musk don't ask Mormons to handle their money because we have a reputation for it. The CIA doesn't hire us in droves due to lack of integrity. 

I've seen the "lying for the Lord" accusation against Latter-day Saints often in anti-Mormon literature. It was used as part of a scheme to facilitate the perpetuation of lies against the church.  A perfect example of this tactic is found in the book, Mormonism, Mama, and Me, by Thelma Geer (1983).  She says that "Mormon priesthood bearers were taught to guard their secret doctrines, even by lying if necessary" (page 40), and she has other similar statements throughout the book.  Using the "secret doctrine" approach basically allows her to get away with saying anything at all about "Mormonism" (no matter how false it may be).  

The scheme works like this:  If you are a "Mormon", and haven't heard of these doctrines before, then it's because you aren't "high enough up" in the church to have learned about them (because they are "hidden doctrines").  If you are a "Mormon" who has heard of these anti-Mormon claims before and you say that they are all "lies", then of course it's either because: 1) You're not "high enough up" and don't know any better, or 2) You DO know about them, but you "were taught to guard [your] secret doctrines, even by lying if necessary".  The non-LDS person is conveniently left in a position where they supposedly cannot trust anything that an LDS member tells them about their church because the members are either lying about (hiding, covering up) their doctrine, or they aren't "high enough up" to know any better.

In a different context I also recall that Simon Southerton laid this "lying for the Lord" charge against Hugh Nibley regarding the Book of Abraham.

[Emmett Xavier Theodoran]

I have heard this, but Mormons are some of the most honest people I have ever met in my life. 

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, InCognitus said:

... In a different context I also recall that Simon Southerton laid this "lying for the Lord" charge against Hugh Nibley regarding the Book of Abraham.

Oh, so now Mr. Southerton is an expert on the Book of Abraham, is he?    Would that we could have a seance to bring Professor Nibley back from The Great Beyond so that the two could have a debate.  I think it would be entertaining to watch Professor Nibley eat Mr. Southerton's lunch.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Kenngo1969
Gratuitous Personal Insult (and Failure to Take Pres. Nelson's Recent Counsel to Heart) Removed

[Hamilton Porter]

1 hour ago, Emmett Xavier Theodoran said:

I have heard this, but Mormons are some of the most honest people I have ever met in my life. 

Welcome.

[gopher]

20 hours ago, Hamilton Porter said:

🤣🤣🤣

Whoever wrote that doesn't live in the DC area.

 

Members living in the DMV work for the "State Department", not the CIA.  Actually, there are a few members of the ward that do admit to being CIA employees.  It seems recently more are contractors instead.  Going through a CIA polygraph convinced me how inaccurate the tests can be though.