AP Story about Abuse

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This is complete nonsense, Spencer. This kind of abuse can and does create fear and decision-making paralysis that you, apparently, cannot imagine. You really shouldn't keep going with this line of reasoning.

The years of abuse my wife and her siblings and cousins endured are not their fault. Fear, threats, and even misplaced love can cause exactly the kind of paralysis you mention. People with no experience in these matters tend to see things much differently than people who do. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by jkwilliams

[bsjkki]

13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Are you trying to get me to use my allotment of posts?  😁 

No, the podcast didn't use the full training video nor did it even mention Richard G. Scott. I just wanted to listen to see if it was the same talk that was in the bloggernacle years ago, and it was. There was much controversy over it back then. 

Trying to remember specifically but the gist was that the training video favored more help for the perps than the victims. But when I listened to it in full, thanks webbles, it was more balanced and in favor of both getting help. And did condemn many times, the perp. 

 

And emphasized getting help for the victim is the priority.

[bsjkki]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

The years of abuse my wife and her siblings and cousins endured are not their fault. Fear, threats, and even misplace love can cause exactly the kind of paralysis you mention. People with no experience in these matters tend to see things much differently than people who do. 

I agree. Victims often have a misplaced sense of responsibility so this type of rhetoric when discussing sexual abuse is not helpful. 
 

We should all know this by now. 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I agree. Victims often have a misplaced sense of responsibility so this type of rhetoric when discussing sexual abuse is not helpful. 
 

We should all know this by now. 

People in her family feel enough guilt and shame without someone like me pointing out that things could have ended sooner if any of the victims had spoken up. I admit I felt like smac does when I first found out about the abuse. I couldn't believe it had gone on for so long without being reported. It seemed like every time we went to a family reunion, someone would corner me and start telling me their abuse stories. I began to realize that they did feel paralyzed and helpless, and they weren't to blame. My wife finally had to stop going to family reunions because they would cause PTSD symptoms. So, no, getting victims to assess their share of the responsibility is completely wrong. 

[pogi]

55 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think this counsel may be preferable to endlessly accommodating a person who refuses to help himself or herself.

We can all recognize that substance abuse, particularly involving highly-addictive drugs, can materially diminish an individual's free will.  And while we can certainly acknowledge the terrible consequences of the addictive behavior, at some point the individual needs to step up and take responsibility for his own life, to stop letting the drugs dominate him.  That being the case, we can encourage him to take such steps as will foster self-determination and end the cycle of dependency, learned helplessness, etc.

Perhaps a similar form of encouragement can help victims of abuse.  A recovering drug addict who continues to hang out with other drug addicts who encourage him to relapse is, in so doing, contributing to his own injury, such that "a degree of responsbility" for relapses.  Similarly, "at some point" a DV victim's failure to take care of themselves can also be reasonably characterized as creating "a degree of responsibility."

We need to help victims of every sort.  To break the cycle.  To overcome learned helplessness.  To foster self-reliance and self-determination.

Thanks,

-Smac

The victims should NEVER be made to feel responsible for the abuse in any way.   That is precisely why many abuse victims can't escape, because the abuser makes them believe they are responsible.  They often believe that they deserve the abuse in some way and stay out of guilt.   The sooner that we help victims realize they are not responsible, the sooner they may empower themselves to be unchained from the abuser. 

Here is a good article from the church on it.  I do find it interesting that they decided to pull a quote from the very talk in question, but the article completely contradicts what Elder Scott said. 

Quote

What if I think the abuse is my fault?

If you are a victim of abuse, you are not responsible for what happened. It does not matter where you were, what you said or did, what you were wearing, or what happened beforehand. Speaking to victims of abuse, Elder Richard G. Scott of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles stated, “I solemnly testify that when another’s acts of violence … hurt you terribly, against your will, you are not responsible and you must not feel guilty” (“Healing the Tragic Scars of Abuse,” Ensign, May 1992).

It Is Not Your Fault

While others may have tried to reassure you that the abuse is not your fault, it is still common to believe you are at fault for what has happened.

 

Some reasons victims may feel at fault include the following:

They have been accused of lying.
They were told the abuse was their fault.
They think they could have or should have stopped it.
The offender was manipulative.
The offender made it seem the abuse was wanted or triggered by the victim.
They feel they did something to encourage it.
They thought the behavior was normal.
They didn’t know that what was happening was abuse.
They were led to believe that they must repent, as if they had somehow sinned by being abused.
No matter what you may feel or what you have been told, you are not to blame for the actions of others.

You Are Not Responsible

In situations of abuse, the offender has used his or her agency to hurt you. You are not responsible for a choice made by someone else.

In a Brigham Young University devotional address, Professor Benjamin M. Ogles gave the following analogy:

“Some wonder if they did something wrong to deserve this circumstance. Some question their own behavior and wonder if they did something to encourage the other person to ignore their wishes—as if they somehow invited this behavior. Especially if they made other decisions around the time of the incident that they now see as questionable, they may think they are somehow partially responsible for what happened to them. But you are not responsible for that to which you did not consent! That is the essence of agency.

“Let me illustrate with a personal experience. In 1990 our family moved to a very small community in southeast Ohio called The Plains. On the first night, someone broke into our car and took everything they wanted to keep. When I discovered the theft, several thoughts came immediately to mind:

“‘If I had only parked closer to the house and away from the street.’

“‘It’s my own fault; I should have locked the car doors.’

“‘How naïve of me to think we were safe just because this is a small, rural town.’

“‘If I had been more alert, I could have prevented this from happening.’

“Do you see how I took responsibility for a crime committed by someone else? No matter where I had parked, how naïve I had been, or whether I had locked the doors or not, no one has the right to take things from my car without my permission. I was not responsible for the theft. Yet I automatically took the blame because I could imagine things that I thought I should have done differently” (“Agency, Accountability, and the Atonement of Jesus Christ: Application to Sexual Assault” [Brigham Young University devotional, Jan. 30, 2018], 5–6, speeches.byu.edu).

In the Book of Mormon we learn, “Whosoever doeth iniquity, doeth it unto himself; for behold, ye are free” (Helaman 14:30; italics added).

If you are a victim of abuse, it is not your fault. You are not to blame for the actions of others, regardless of the circumstances, and healing is possible through the Savior Jesus Christ.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/get-help/abuse/what-if-i-think-this-is-my-fault?lang=eng

 

 

 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by pogi

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

But it ended when people felt they could break the cycle. 

What makes someone believe they can break the cycle?  How do they break the cycle?

Perhaps by making different choices than they used to?

How do you help people see this without laying a guilt trip on them (which can bog them down and make it harder to change)?

[bsjkki]

24 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

People in her family feel enough guilt and shame without someone like me pointing out that things could have ended sooner if any of the victims had spoken up. I admit I felt like smac does when I first found out about the abuse. I couldn't believe it had gone on for so long without being reported. It seemed like every time we went to a family reunion, someone would corner me and start telling me their abuse stories. I began to realize that they did feel paralyzed and helpless, and they weren't to blame. My wife finally had to stop going to family reunions because they would cause PTSD symptoms. So, no, getting victims to assess their share of the responsibility is completely wrong. 

I’ve learned a lot watching an in law deal with this. Same thing. It was so prevalent in the extended family, the victims are not capable of calling it out or stopping it. My in law cut off contact…and got vilified for it. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by bsjkki

[jkwilliams]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

What makes someone believe they can break the cycle?  How do they break the cycle?

Perhaps by making different choices than they used to?

How do you help people see this without laying a guilt trip on them (which can bog them down and make it harder to change)?

When they were adults, they learned that one of the abusers had abused a mentally disabled child. The fear and paralysis were gone, and they went to the police. None of them (we’re talking dozens) had any ability to stop it when they were children. 

What I mean is that very few victims, especially young children, have the wherewithal to stop it when it’s happening. Like my wife’s family, when are removed from the abuse by time and distance, it is possible they may speak up. That doesn’t mean they beat any responsibility for the abuse. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by jkwilliams

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

The victims should NEVER be made to feel responsible for the abuse in any way.   That is precisely why many abuse victims can't escape, because the abuser makes them believe they are responsible.  They often believe that they deserve the abuse in some way and stay out of guilt.   The sooner that we help victims realize they are not responsible, the sooner they may empower themselves to be unchained from the abuser. 

Here is a good article from the church on it.  I do find it interesting that they decided to pull a quote from the very talk in question, but the article completely contradicts what Elder Scott said. 

Point taken.

[bluebell]

44 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1992/04/healing-the-tragic-scars-of-abuse?lang=eng

Here's the talk that the training video used by Richard G. Scott, note the bold, sounds awful if you ask me. I listened to the whole talk and the bold is still so wrong and awful even after putting it in context. 

The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often, the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure. (See D&C 138:1–4.) Forgiveness can be obtained for all involved in abuse. (See A of F 1:3.) Then comes a restoration of self-respect, self-worth, and a renewal of life.

 

I remember watching a movie where one of the main characters was raped by a guy after a party in college.  The character then goes on for 2 hours to learn how to deal with and become very vocal about her rape, considering herself equal to those women who had had absolutely no intention of having sex with the man who raped them. 

The story line always annoyed me because the movie is clear in that she had wanted to have sex with him, she had purposefully set out to have sex with him, and she was in the middle of having sex with him, when he decided that he didn't want to wear a condom and just went ahead without it even though she was telling him no, that she didn't want to have sex without a condom.  

Now, she was raped, full stop.  "No" at any point during the act means no.  But she was still responsible for the choices that she made.  She bore no responsibility for the things that happened to her that were against her will. 

That's the kind of thing that I think of when I hear Elder Scott's words.  That's the kind of situation that I think of.  Those times when choices to sin were made freely, but the end result was not a choice.

However, I do agree that this is the kind of message--while probably very helpful for those who know the choices they made were not ok, feel guilt for them, and need the peace that absolution can bring--that is completely detrimental for anyone who is struggling with feelings of shame and guilt for choices they bear no responsibility for. 

The line between these two scenarios is so incredibly thin that it's not one that the majority of bishops should try to find under most circumstances. 

For me, the most important part of Elder Scott's guidance is where he says "the Lord may prompt a victim".    The Lord.  Not the bishop.  No bishop should ever prompt such a thing.  

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

What makes someone believe they can break the cycle?  How do they break the cycle?

Perhaps by making different choices than they used to?

How do you help people see this without laying a guilt trip on them (which can bog them down and make it harder to change)?

They break the cycle by not becoming perpetrators themselves and protecting their family from abusers. But, this in no way blames them for the abuse they suffered.

Edited August 19, 2022 by bsjkki

[smac97]

42 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This is complete nonsense, Spencer. This kind of abuse can and does create fear and decision-making paralysis that you, apparently, cannot imagine. You really shouldn't keep going with this line of reasoning.

Point taken.

[smac97]

48 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

This is pretty bad, smac. People "hang out" with their abusers for all kinds of reasons, and it's ridiculous to say they are failing to take care of themselves. My wife's family has a long history of child sexual abuse, and it went on a lot longer than it should have. But it ended when people felt they could break the cycle. At what point did the continuing contact with abusers constitute a "degree of responsibility"? Sorry, but I don't think you have a frame of reference here, or you wouldn't compare abuse victims to former drug addicts, etc. 

Point taken.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, smac97 said:

Point taken.

I know I sounded harsh, but I deal with the effects of abuse literally every day. It is not right to put any of the responsibility on the victims. 

[bsjkki]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

When they were adults, they learned that one of the abusers had abused a mentally disabled child. The fear and paralysis were gone, and they went to the police.

Do we have a common relative? I think reporting laws, in my case, helped the wife call the police. My in law had already cut contact at this point. It was a generational problem. Maybe, there is hope for the current generation to stop the cycle. 

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I know I sounded harsh, but I deal with the effects of abuse literally every day. It is not right to put any of the responsibility on the victims. 

No worries.  I appreciate the correction.

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

The victims should NEVER be made to feel responsible for the abuse in any way.   That is precisely why many abuse victims can't escape, because the abuser makes them believe they are responsible.  They often believe that they deserve the abuse in some way and stay out of guilt.   The sooner that we help victims realize they are not responsible, the sooner they may empower themselves to be unchained from the abuser. 

Here is a good article from the church on it.  I do find it interesting that they decided to pull a quote from the very talk in question, but the article completely contradicts what Elder Scott said. 

I think it can be difficult to separate ability to respond in the past from ability to respond in the present unless we are very careful. After all, if someone does now have the ability to respond, don’t they have the responsibility to respond so they can have a better life? (Not saying we should actually phrase it that way, just that we can end up feeling that way.)

Empowerment is in part accepting responsibility for oneself. If you control your life, you are responsible for it. 

But the underlying problem is the ability to be responsible is an internal state and observers may not be aware of something that limits responsibility at that time.  So pushing someone to take responsibility because it appears they are capable of it may backfire because they aren’t.  
 

I have been in the situation of trying to help someone leave an abusive situation. Besides physically restraining them (as I was so tempted to do at times), not sure what else to do besides listen and ensure they are aware of options even if currently they are incapable of viewing them as options. 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Calm

[SkyRock]

I know a family where the wife was molested by her father as a girl.  She eventually stopped him when she was a teenager, but she never told her mother or any church or law enforcement authorities.  She also never sought therapy or any other help. Her father never apologized or took any responsibility.  

She decided to just repress it and pretend it never happened.  That had interesting results.   She hated her mom and fought with her. She left home at 18 and moved across the country.  She left the church and lived a wild life for a number of years. 

She eventually went back to church and married in the temple.   She told her husband about what happened, but minimized it.  As time went on, it caused serious issues in their marriage, especially as she had trauma related anger and coping problems.  They didn't get divorced, but only because the husband put up with a lot of abuse and went to counseling.

She still is an active member with a leadership calling, but refuses to even admit that she should go to counseling.

Anyway, it is a very sad situation.  She was clearly a victim as a child.   She isn't responsible at all for what was done to her then.

Is there some point where we can say she is responsible for her current behavior?  

[jkwilliams]

Just now, SkyRock said:

I know a family where the wife was molested by her father as a girl.  She eventually stopped him when she was a teenager, but she never told her mother or any church or law enforcement authorities.  She also never sought therapy or any other help. Her father never apologized or took any responsibility.  

She decided to just repress it and pretend it never happened.  That had interesting results.   She hated her mom and fought with her. She left home at 18 and moved across the country.  She left the church and lived a wild life for a number of years. 

She eventually went back to church and married in the temple.   She told her husband about what happened, but minimized it.  As time went on, it caused serious issues in their marriage, especially as she had trauma related anger and coping problems.  They didn't get divorced, but only because the husband put up with a lot of abuse and went to counseling.

She still is an active member with a leadership calling, but refuses to even admit that she should go to counseling.

Anyway, it is a very sad situation.  She was clearly a victim as a child.   She isn't responsible at all for what was done to her then.

Is there some point where we can say she is responsible for her current behavior?  

I’ve been married 35 years. My wife has night terrors at least 3 times a week (all abuse related). If I inadvertently touch her or make a sudden move in bed when she’s asleep, she screams. If I come into a room where she is, I have to tell her I’m coming, or she jumps.  She’s had loads of therapy, and at this point, her goal is just to cope with it as it comes. It’s not her fault. None of it. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, SkyRock said:

 

Is there some point where we can say she is responsible for her current behavior?  

As far as her behavior in badly coping with the abuse is causing harm to others, then yes, she is responsible for that.

Otherwise, abusers who were themselves abused as children would not be responsible for their decision to abuse.  Cycles of (or generational) abuse do not negate the responsibility of the abuser.

[SkyRock]

31 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’ve been married 35 years. My wife has night terrors at least 3 times a week (all abuse related). If I inadvertently touch her or make a sudden move in bed when she’s asleep, she screams. If I come into a room where she is, I have to tell her I’m coming, or she jumps.  She’s had loads of therapy, and at this point, her goal is just to cope with it as it comes. It’s not her fault. None of it. 

You are a saint.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think it can be difficult to separate ability to respond in the past from ability to respond in the present unless we are very careful. After all, if someone does now have the ability to respond, don’t they have the responsibility to respond so they can have a better life? (Not saying we should actually phrase it that way, just that we can end up feeling that way.)

Empowerment is in part accepting responsibility for oneself. If you control your life, you are responsible for it. 

But the underlying problem is the ability to be responsible is an internal state and observers may not be aware of something that limits responsibility at that time.  So pushing someone to take responsibility because it appears they are capable of it may backfire because they aren’t.  
 

I have been in the situation of trying to help someone leave an abusive situation. Besides physically restraining them (as I was so tempted to do at times), not sure what else to do besides listen and ensure they are aware of options even if currently they are incapable of viewing them as options. 

I read it somewhere that one is responsible for how they respond to abuse, but they are never responsible for the abuse.     That is my problem with his remarks which suggest that one may be responsible for the actual abuse in some way:

Quote

At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. 

But even then I think the ability, and thus responsibility, can be inhibited in some degree in how a traumatized abuse victim responds in as far as protecting themselves goes.  When fear/trauma/manipulation can inhibit our ability to even respond in reasonable, rational, and healthy ways, it often requires outside intervention and professional help before one can see clearly or to believe that they are even worthy of happiness.  

Edited August 19, 2022 by pogi

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

The years of abuse my wife and her siblings and cousins endured are not their fault. Fear, threats, and even misplaced love can cause exactly the kind of paralysis you mention. People with no experience in these matters tend to see things much differently than people who do. 

About 25 years ago, I had a female co worker who would show up to work every day looking like she was beat to a pulp by her significant other. Just about every day we would try and encourage her to talk to the police.  She did nothing.  The police had often been called on the other guy and he would even spend a few nights in jail then be released.  The woman kept going back to this person, even going as far as getting him out of Jail.

Are you saying this woman had no responsibility to do anything? 

On another instance I served on a jury where a man was accused of hitting his wife.  We didn't convict (even though we suspected he was guilty) because the wife testified that it was an accident (no other witnesses).   

The woman had no responsibility? 

If the woman had not responsibility , who does?

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

The victims should NEVER be made to feel responsible for the abuse in any way.   That is precisely why many abuse victims can't escape, because the abuser makes them believe they are responsible.  They often believe that they deserve the abuse in some way and stay out of guilt.   The sooner that we help victims realize they are not responsible, the sooner they may empower themselves to be unchained from the abuser. 

Here is a good article from the church on it.  I do find it interesting that they decided to pull a quote from the very talk in question, but the article completely contradicts what Elder Scott said. 

 

 

 

 

The attitude that a victim can and should do nothing in the face of abuse enables a lot of abuse.  I know no one here wants to hear this but often the victim is the only that can do anything about it.  Telling them they should be paralyzed and give up is what the abuser wants.

[pogi]

3 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The attitude that a victim can and should do nothing in the face of abuse enables a lot of abuse.  I know no one here wants to hear this but often the victim is the only that can do anything about it.  Telling them they should be paralyzed and give up is what the abuser wants.

That’s not what I said