AP Story about Abuse

[jkwilliams]

15 minutes ago, Danzo said:

About 25 years ago, I had a female co worker who would show up to work every day looking like she was beat to a pulp by her significant other. Just about every day we would try and encourage her to talk to the police.  She did nothing.  The police had often been called on the other guy and he would even spend a few nights in jail then be released.  The woman kept going back to this person, even going as far as getting him out of Jail.

Are you saying this woman had no responsibility to do anything? 

On another instance I served on a jury where a man was accused of hitting his wife.  We didn't convict (even though we suspected he was guilty) because the wife testified that it was an accident (no other witnesses).   

The woman had no responsibility? 

If the woman had not responsibility , who does?

 

I’m saying I agree with the church on this:

Some reasons victims may feel at fault include the following:

They have been accused of lying.
They were told the abuse was their fault.
They think they could have or should have stopped it.
The offender was manipulative.
The offender made it seem the abuse was wanted or triggered by the victim.
They feel they did something to encourage it.
They thought the behavior was normal.
They didn’t know that what was happening was abuse.
They were led to believe that they must repent, as if they had somehow sinned by being abused.
No matter what you may feel or what you have been told, you are not to blame for the actions of others.

You Are Not Responsible

In situations of abuse, the offender has used his or her agency to hurt you. You are not responsible for a choice made by someone else.

[Danzo]

6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m saying I agree with the church on this:

Some reasons victims may feel at fault include the following:

They have been accused of lying.
They were told the abuse was their fault.
They think they could have or should have stopped it.
The offender was manipulative.
The offender made it seem the abuse was wanted or triggered by the victim.
They feel they did something to encourage it.
They thought the behavior was normal.
They didn’t know that what was happening was abuse.
They were led to believe that they must repent, as if they had somehow sinned by being abused.
No matter what you may feel or what you have been told, you are not to blame for the actions of others.

You Are Not Responsible

In situations of abuse, the offender has used his or her agency to hurt you. You are not responsible for a choice made by someone else.

Didn't really answer the question, did you?

What should the women in my real world scenarios have done?

 

 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Didn't really answer the question, did you?

What should the women in my real world scenarios have done?

 

 

I don’t know. I am not them. 

[ttribe]

27 minutes ago, Danzo said:

About 25 years ago, I had a female co worker who would show up to work every day looking like she was beat to a pulp by her significant other. Just about every day we would try and encourage her to talk to the police.  She did nothing.  The police had often been called on the other guy and he would even spend a few nights in jail then be released.  The woman kept going back to this person, even going as far as getting him out of Jail.

Are you saying this woman had no responsibility to do anything? 

On another instance I served on a jury where a man was accused of hitting his wife.  We didn't convict (even though we suspected he was guilty) because the wife testified that it was an accident (no other witnesses).   

The woman had no responsibility? 

If the woman had not responsibility , who does?

 

You are demonstrating no understanding of how psychologically damaged abuse victims are. And no, those women were not responsible; they were victims and their thinking and judgment are by definition impaired at that point.

Start here: https://ncadv.org/why-do-victims-stay

[Danzo]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

That’s not what I said

You keep saying the person is not responsible, not able, capable or morally obligated to respond to their situation.

Being responsible isn't some sort of punishment or sentence or pronouncement of guilt or culpability.  Being responsible is choosing to act instead of being acted upon. 

 

[Danzo]

Just now, ttribe said:

You are demonstrating no understanding of how psychologically damaged abuse victims are. And no, those women were not responsible; they were victims and their thinking and judgment are by definition impaired at that point.

Start here: https://ncadv.org/why-do-victims-stay

So you think that the wife in the story we are commenting on should not be in jail? She was a victim after all.

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I don’t know. I am not them. 

Nice dodge

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You are demonstrating no understanding of how psychologically damaged abuse victims are. And no, those women were not responsible; they were victims and their thinking and judgment are by definition impaired at that point.

Start here: https://ncadv.org/why-do-victims-stay

You approve of a woman lying in a courtroom to protect her abuser (and possibly her children's abuser)?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Danzo said:

Nice dodge

I’ll say it again: it isn’t their fault, and abuse victims should not be held to the standards you expect of disinterested, rational people. It doesn’t work that way. 

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

You approve of a woman lying in a courtroom to protect her abuser (and possibly her children's abuser)?

This isn’t about approving of anything. Where are you getting that?

Edited August 19, 2022 by jkwilliams

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Danzo said:

The woman had no responsibility? 

If the woman had not responsibility , who does?

The abuser and possibly others in her past that taught her she was safer and/or more loved being abused than walking away from it (assuming she could even conceptualize herself walking away).

[Danzo]

Just now, jkwilliams said:

I’ll say it again: it isn’t their fault, and abuse victims should not be held to the standards you expect of disinterested, rational people. It doesn’t work that way. 

should they be held to any standard? or should anyone who is abused be able to do anything they want to protect their abusers.

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

You approve of a woman lying in a courtroom to protect her abuser (and possibly her children's abuser)?

How black and white is your thinking? I neither 'approve' or 'disapprove.' I recognize that a victim of domestic abuse is subject to severe emotional and psychological trauma and his or her judgment may be significantly impaired.

Edited August 19, 2022 by ttribe

[Danzo]

Just now, Calm said:

The abuser and possibly others in her past that taught her she was safer and/or more loved being abused than walking away from it (assuming she could even conceptualize herself walking away).

No one has any responsibility then?  how does that make the situation any better?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Didn't really answer the question, did you?

What should the women in my real world scenarios have done?

What they are capable of doing to be safe…which may not include walking away or testifying.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Danzo said:

No one has any responsibility then?  

Excuse me?  How is saying the abuser is responsible equivalent to saying no one is responsible?

Quote

  how does that make the situation any better?

Not saying it does.  Not everything in life can be fixed immediately.  Most life changing changes take time.  Teaching someone to change what makes them feel safe (which often goes back to early childhood and therefore is quite hard to alter) can take a tremendous amount of caring and time and hope or trust in the person that they will do it when they are able to do it.

Unless you want to start declaring people incompetent for making damaging choice (smoking, drugs, staying in abusive situations, overeating to the point of damaging their health, not taking medication when necessary, etc) and therefore the law can physically restrict someone from choosing what hurts them, what would you suggest we do?

Edited August 19, 2022 by Calm

[Danzo]

Just now, ttribe said:

How black and white is your thinking? I neither 'approve' or 'disapprove.' I recognize that a victim of domestic abuse is subject to severe emotional and psychological trauma and and his or her judgment may be significantly impaired.

Neither approve or disapprove? You really don't care if a person who is being abused lies on the stand.  You don't care?

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

No one has any responsibility then?  how does that make the situation any better?

You obviously didn't read the link I gave you.

Besides, what do you need so bad to hold victims responsible for "not helping themselves?"

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

What they are capable of doing to be safe…which may not include walking away or testifying.

That really isn't much of a standard.  What are they capable of doing? Are you really saying that a woman being abused has no power to change the situation?

[ttribe]

Just now, Danzo said:

Neither approve or disapprove? You really don't care if a person who is being abused lies on the stand.  You don't care?

Seriously, can you read? I never said anything about not caring, but it is not my place to 'approve' or 'disapprove.'

[ttribe]

Just now, Danzo said:

That really isn't much of a standard.  What are they capable of doing? Are you really saying that a woman being abused has no power to change the situation?

In many, many cases, no they do not. Go do some reading and get off your high horse. Your attitude on this is harmful.

[Danzo]

Just now, ttribe said:

You obviously didn't read the link I gave you.

Besides, what do you need so bad to hold victims responsible for "not helping themselves?"

Not hold responsible, but help become responsible.  we are not talking about guilt and innocence, we are talking about empowerment to act. 

[Danzo]

1 minute ago, ttribe said:

In many, many cases, no they do not. Go do some reading and get off your high horse. Your attitude on this is harmful.

Your attitude is more than harmful, your attitude is enabling.

[ttribe]

1 minute ago, Danzo said:

Not hold responsible, but help become responsible.  we are not talking about guilt and innocence, we are talking about empowerment to act. 

Read before you comment anymore. You're approach is terrible. It shows a complete lack of understanding and compassion for these situations.

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Danzo said:

should they be held to any standard? or should anyone who is abused be able to do anything they want to protect their abusers.

I don’t think we’re communicating with each other. My wife’s abuse started when she was 3 years old when her brother returned from his mission, and it went on for years. At what age was she supposed to figure out she could stop it? Was she responsible for “protecting” him at age 3, 6, 10? 

I don’t know what motivated your example women, but I very much doubt they were acting rationally.