Dallas Jenkins Walking a Tightrope

[Teancum]

7 hours ago, Navidad said:

Perhaps you could start with telling me how, and under what circumstances  I and/or my wife will be welcomed to the Celestial Kingdom for eternity where the Godhead will dwell (for eternity) with no assistance, involvement, or engagement with specific LDS ordinances, covenants, and practices. That is the key issue for me in all that I say. The underlying assumption of my post was that in neither this life or the next will I assent to or seek spiritual standing via any LDS ordinance. I will come to Christ "just as I am." Second, my underlying assumption is that spiritual death is life for eternity absent the presence, teaching, and worship of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Call that hell, Terrestial, or Telestial, or "spiritual death" or whatever term you want. Should we start there? Or would you like to start somewhere else? Thanks.

Based on LDS doctrine if you do not accept the LDS ordinances in tis life or the next the best you can do is the terrestrial. There you will have the ministry of the Son and Holy Ghost but not the Father.  Also one could debate whether you could have a chance to accept LDS ordinances in the spirit world. If you have been attending LDS services and have had an opportunity to accept the LDS gospel but did not many may argue you don't get a second chance.  I do not think there is hard doctrine on that however.

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We believe it is 99 percent sure virtually everyone will see the advantages and what is true.

We do?  CFR please.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

We do?  CFR please.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

http://ldslastdays.com/every-knee-shall-bow/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ftsoy/2021/07/11_you-can-make-it?lang=eng

Want more? They're everywhere 

Edited June 3, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

Spiritual death, as understood by Latter-day Saints, means separation from God.   Because Jesus Christ is God, one is not spiritually dead if he is present with Christ and abides with Him, nor in the presence of the Holly Ghost.  Spiritual death is what would have happened if Christ did not atone for the fall of Adam.  Outer-darkness. Hell. That is spiritual death. 

First, it has nothing to do with a formal commitment to Latter-day Saints, it has to do with a covenant with God of which He sets the parameters - not us.

If I came to find out in the next life that my baptism in mortality was not valid in the eyes of God, and in God's good mercy held it not against me because of my faith in Him and life of service, but offered me a chance to be present with him for eternity via baptism by proxy of one in authority - what could keep me from being present with God but my own pride?  If I knew it was God's will and I refuse the cup...that is on me - no one else. 

Please don't get defensive and accuse me of judging you of pride.  That is not what I am saying.  I don't believe it is your pride that is keeping you from baptism.   I believe it is an honest misunderstanding.  According to our faith, there will be no misunderstanding for either of us in the end.  At that point, it will only be our pride that separates us from God.

Second, as I have already pointed out, it is an incorrect understanding of our doctrine to say that you cannot abide then presence of the Son (God) without baptism.  To equate such a glorious heaven with "hell", when Christ's presence fills it with the glory of God - I would call that an unfair assessment of our beliefs of the next life.  

Hi Pogi - Best wishes to you. I am explaining spiritual death as I understand it and it is indeed separation from God. Please explain to me how I will be present with Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the Father for Eternity sans LDS ordinances and covenants? How would that work? God set the parameters through His Son, not via a church is my belief. I interpret LDS beliefs through that belief. I do not believe that there will be earthly denominations in the spirit world or in eternity. I cannot agree that in the next life I will find out that my mortal baptism was not valid in the eyes of God. I do not believe God in his Heaven (whatever we call it) will have any opinion about any earthly ordinances. We will be judged by His son on based on His criteria. They are not the qualifications of any specific earthly ordinance whether feet-washing, holy orders, ordination, or this form or that of baptism. I put no faith in ordinances for my eternal life. That fact that I was ordained by a Christian church will have no bearing on my ultimate location after death, negatively or positively. Do you think Christ will take into consideration your priesthood ordinance when He judges you? That is a genuine question. Please don't be offended at it.

I am not defensive nor do I think you are accusing me of pride. I fully accept you as my saved peer in Christ. I fully expect you to be judged - aprobado (Spanish for approved) by Christ. I must reiterate my understanding of my doctrine, a filter through which I interpret yours. If I am not in the celestial kingdom for eternity I will not be in the presence of the Godhead for eternity. I am pretty sure your doctrine teaches that. Therefore I will be spiritually apart from God for eternity. Wherever that is, it won't be heaven, it will be spiritual death.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It appears I cannot respond to you without offending you.

I hope you use church sources like Gospel Principles to learn about our faith, and not others who appear to be innacurate.

06195_eng.pdf

The Lord gives us the heaven we believe IS heaven, in my opinion.

He gives us the "best" we believe we deserve.  Our own decisions limit us or allow for blessings beyond our anything we can imagine.

We become "all we CAN be", and that includes ALL of what we have covenanted and believe we can be.

It is faith.  You cannot be healed without thinking it is possible.

 

Why do you think you offended me? You didn't. I think I am becoming immune to you offending me! 😀

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Based on LDS doctrine if you do not accept the LDS ordinances in tis life or the next the best you can do is the terrestrial. There you will have the ministry of the Son and Holy Ghost but not the Father.  Also one could debate whether you could have a chance to accept LDS ordinances in the spirit world. If you have been attending LDS services and have had an opportunity to accept the LDS gospel but did not many may argue you don't get a second chance.  I do not think there is hard doctrine on that however.

Might I give you an illustration from just this week? Someone in our ward posted a painting on Facebook. The painting was titled something like "The First Day in Heaven." It showed two modern women hugging - presumably family members. Our LDS friends really gave it positive responses. My sweet wife posted a reply to it. Her reply was "I want to spend the whole first day at Jesus' feet, thanking and worshiping Him. I can't wait to see my Savior." I would agree with her response. So my best shot at an eternity without LDS assistance is the terrestial where the Father never goes. My understanding of LDS doctrine is that Christ Himself will just visit that kingdom and then leave. That is spiritual death - eternity without the Godhead.  That prospect saddens me that folks would think that of her, especially. It doesn't frighten me, because I don't believe there will be any earthly denominations in heaven at any level or in the spirit world. I am pretty sure Christ will not judge us on our earthly church affiliations. As I said earlier, I don't expect my ordination or the Rev in front of my name to count for anything at all at the judgement. Nada nil nothing.

[Navidad]

24 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

Read the page five times. Where does it say all who have opportunity will accept? Uh oh now I see you have provided more references. I will check them out. Is each source an official expression of church doctrine?

Edited June 3, 2022 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Why do you think you offended me? You didn't. I think I am becoming immune to you offending me! 😀

Oh my gosh. Classic. 

I really do give up.  All my best to you.

[Navidad]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng

http://ldslastdays.com/every-knee-shall-bow/

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ftsoy/2021/07/11_you-can-make-it?lang=eng

Want more? They're everywhere 

Uh Oh, that second one can't be authoritative - they spelled Rey Lucero Pratt's name wrong! He was the head of the Southwest mission for many years. Maybe I know more than you think! I certainly know more than whoever put up that website! Please permit me a little fun with this! Thanks.

[Navidad]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Oh my gosh. Classic. 

I really do give up.  All my best to you.

Uh Oh. Did I offend you? Everything I respond to you offends you! Oh wait a minute, that is your line. Sorry I got mixed up! - He says lightheartedly.

[Navidad]

2 minutes ago, Navidad said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ftsoy/2021/07/11_you-can-make-it?lang=eng

Yes, I want some more. Just read this one five times. Nothing in there I can see about folks accepting LDS ordinances in the spirit world as an option. I might have missed it. I have now been through all three of your sources. íMas por favor!

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Yes, I want some more. Just read this one five times. Nothing in there I can see about folks accepting LDS ordinances in the spirit world as an option. I might have missed it. I have now been through all three of your sources. íMas por favor!

I'm not sure this is what mfbukowski was suppose to be evidencing from his links. It looks like he was responding to a CFR from Teancum that mfsbukowski's claim stating "We believe it is 99 percent sure virtually everyone will see the advantages and what is true" is actually true. I couldn't find in his links evidence of this though he claimed it was there and there was more. You are now requesting he support something different than what Teancum requested. For the record, it is generally viewed as a given in the Church that all those who did not receive the ordinances in the mortality will be given he opportunity to accept them in the hereafter. I believe for those who have played the hand dealt them in the life sufficiently enough (that is the key), will accept these ordinances already done on their behalf without a second thought. In those situations, I don't view these ordinances as the LDS ordinances done for those who did not accept the LDS gospel in this life but rather they will accept the ordinances our Savior and Father-in-Heaven considers necessary. The ordinances we perform in this mortality are our best approximation to those expected ordinances. How's that for a head scratcher?! ; )     

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi Pogi - Best wishes to you. I am explaining spiritual death as I understand it and it is indeed separation from God. Please explain to me how I will be present with Christ, the Holy Ghost, and the Father for Eternity sans LDS ordinances and covenants? How would that work? God set the parameters through His Son, not via a church is my belief. I interpret LDS beliefs through that belief. I do not believe that there will be earthly denominations in the spirit world or in eternity. I cannot agree that in the next life I will find out that my mortal baptism was not valid in the eyes of God. I do not believe God in his Heaven (whatever we call it) will have any opinion about any earthly ordinances. We will be judged by His son on based on His criteria. They are not the qualifications of any specific earthly ordinance whether feet-washing, holy orders, ordination, or this form or that of baptism. I put no faith in ordinances for my eternal life. That fact that I was ordained by a Christian church will have no bearing on my ultimate location after death, negatively or positively. Do you think Christ will take into consideration your priesthood ordinance when He judges you? That is a genuine question. Please don't be offended at it.

I am not defensive nor do I think you are accusing me of pride. I fully accept you as my saved peer in Christ. I fully expect you to be judged - aprobado (Spanish for approved) by Christ. I must reiterate my understanding of my doctrine, a filter through which I interpret yours. If I am not in the celestial kingdom for eternity I will not be in the presence of the Godhead for eternity. I am pretty sure your doctrine teaches that. Therefore I will be spiritually apart from God for eternity. Wherever that is, it won't be heaven, it will be spiritual death.

I was responding to your last post in which you stated:

"my eternal destiny is to live in a place without the abiding presence of the Father or Son. I might be tempted to deem that hell..."

It is a misrepresentation of our belief to say that you cannot abide the presence of the Son - God.  I would not call such a place or presence "hell". 

I know that you know our doctrine of the after life, but for some reason you are trying to apply your heaven or hell, all or nothing, the entire Godhead or nada, traditional Christian teachings into our more nuanced understanding of "the heavens" (plural). 

You are correct that God did set the parameters through His Son, I believe that you are incorrect to believe that such covenants will not be via His authorized church and priesthood.  Even you were baptized via a church.  Surely you would not accept any baptism by Jews or Muslims or Hindu's as valid, would you?    I also do not believe that there will be earthy denominations in the spirit world.  I understand why you believe that your mortal baptism will be viewed as valid in the eyes of God, but in the end, it is not your belief or my belief that dictates what will be seen as valid.  One of us will be wrong about that.  The question is, will we be humble enough to accept that we are wrong when all misunderstandings are removed from our eyes?  I hope that I will be. 

I know you believe with provisional certitude that your baptism is valid in the eyes of God, but even provisional certitude allows room for doubt.  It is not absolute certitude.  So, if you truly are misunderstanding the nature and parameters of the baptismal covenant and come to find out that you still need baptism in the eyes of God (just play along with this hypothetical for a second), what is it that will keep you out of the celestial kingdom and presence of the full Godhead?  Nothing can keep you from God but you, when all the scales are removed from our eyes.  There will be nothing and no one to blame but you.  You can't blame the church.  You can't blame God.  You can't blame Evangelism.  There are no barriers anymore.  No doubt.  No provisional certitude.  It will be absolute.  The only things that will keep us out are un-repented sin, shame, and pride. 

You will not be "spiritually apart from God for eternity", unless you think Christ is not God.  Surely, you can understand why I cringe when the terrestrial kingdom is compared to "hell".  That is a corruption of what we teach.  It is a heaven.  There is not just one.  It is the heavenly, sacred and holy abode of THE CHRIST. 

Edited June 4, 2022 by pogi

[Navidad]

37 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I'm not sure this is what mfbukowski was suppose to be evidencing from his links. It looks like he was responding to a CFR from Teancum that mfsbukowski's claim stating "We believe it is 99 percent sure virtually everyone will see the advantages and what is true" is actually true. I couldn't find in his links evidence of this though he claimed it was there and there was more. You are now requesting he support something different than what Teancum requested. For the record, it is generally viewed as a given in the Church that all those who did not receive the ordinances in the mortality will be given he opportunity to accept them in the hereafter. I believe for those who have played the hand dealt them in the life sufficiently enough (that is the key), will accept these ordinances already done on their behalf without a second thought. In those situations, I don't view these ordinances as the LDS ordinances done for those who did not accept the LDS gospel in this life but rather they will accept the ordinances our Savior and Father-in-Heaven considers necessary. The ordinances we perform in this mortality are our best approximation to those expected ordinances. How's that for a head scratcher?! ; )     

Thanks. It is not a given in any other church, is it? Is there a chance there will be Catholic, Pentecostal (look out!) or Baptist missionaries in the spirit world offering competing ordinances to those of the LDS? How about missionaries from the 40,000 different Christian denominations that some claim are in the world? In the LDS mindset (doctrine) is the spirit world the domain of the Godhead? If so, different from this world, will the Godhead only allow LDS missionaries in the spirit world? God certainly allows other missionaries now. The Pentecostals are really doing well, better in terms of converts than anyone else. Will other non-LDS Christian denominations exist in the spirit world? Will I be Mennonite, Christian, Evangelical or what in the spirit world tomorrow if I die tonight? Just for the record, I do not believe there will be any human denominations in either the spirit world or any level of heaven in the eternities. We will then finally be the church Christ created in the New Testament, the world-wide church of believers, fellowshipping and worshiping together as one. Thanks for you reply. Sorry for all the questions.

[Navidad]

11 minutes ago, pogi said:

Surely you would not accept any baptism by Jews or Muslims or Hindu's as valid, would you? 

Valid for what? I have no belief in any baptism as "valid" beyond what it means to the one being baptized as a testimony of his or her faith in Christ. I do not believe that any baptism by anyone is valid beyond its intent - a witness of a faith and belief in Christ as one's savior. In that sense, its validity or invalidity is in the hands of the one being baptized, not in the hands of the one doing the baptism. I hope that helps.

[Navidad]

15 minutes ago, pogi said:

I was responding to your last post in which you stated:

"my eternal destiny is to live in a place without the abiding presence of the Father or Son. I might be tempted to deem that hell..."

It is a misrepresentation of our belief to say that you cannot abide the presence of the Son - God.  I would not call such a place or presence "hell". 

I know that you know our doctrine of the after life, but for some reason you are trying to apply your heaven or hell, all or nothing, the entire Godhead or nada, traditional Christian teachings into our more nuanced understanding of "the heavens" (plural). 

You are correct that God did set the parameters through His Son, I believe that you are incorrect to believe that such covenants will not be via His authorized church and priesthood.  Even you were baptized via a church.  Surely you would not accept any baptism by Jews or Muslims or Hindu's as valid, would you?    I also do not believe that there will be earthy denominations in the spirit world.  I understand why you believe that your mortal baptism will be viewed as valid in the eyes of God, but in the end, it is not your belief or my belief that dictates what will be seen as valid.  One of us will be wrong about that.  The question is, will we be humble enough to accept that we are wrong when all misunderstandings are removed from our eyes?  I hope that I will be. 

I know you believe with provisional certitude that your baptism is valid in the eyes of God, but even provisional certitude allows room for doubt.  It is not absolute certitude.  So, if you truly are misunderstanding the nature and parameters of the baptismal covenant and come to find out that you still need baptism in the eyes of God (just play along with this hypothetical for a second), what is it that will keep you out of the celestial kingdom and presence of the full Godhead?  Nothing can keep you from God but you, when all the scales are removed from our eyes.  There will be nothing and no one to blame but you.  You can't blame the church.  You can't blame God.  You can't blame Evangelism.  There are no barriers anymore.  No doubt.  No provisional certitude.  It will be absolute.  The only things that will keep us out are un-repented sin, shame, and pride. 

You will not be "spiritually apart from God for eternity", unless you think Christ is not God.  Surely, you can understand why I cringe when the terrestrial kingdom is compared to "hell".  That is a corruption of what we teach.  It is a heaven.  There is not just one.  It is the heavenly, sacred and holy abode of THE CHRIST. 

Sorry, I just meant to copy the last two lines. Do you believe it is the teachings of the LDS church that the terrestrial kingdom is the permanent abode of Christ and the Holy Ghost for eternity? I have never heard that before. Christ will not abide in the Celestial Kingdom with His Father, visiting the Terrestrial once in a while to minister? This is a new thought for me. Thanks.

[Vanguard]

3 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Thanks. It is not a given in any other church, is it? Is there a chance there will be Catholic, Pentecostal (look out!) or Baptist missionaries in the spirit world offering competing ordinances to those of the LDS? How about missionaries from the 40,000 different Christian denominations that some claim are in the world? In the LDS mindset (doctrine) is the spirit world the domain of the Godhead? If so, different from this world, will the Godhead only allow LDS missionaries in the spirit world? God certainly allows other missionaries now. The Pentecostals are really doing well, better in terms of converts than anyone else. Will other non-LDS Christian denominations exist in the spirit world? Will I be Mennonite, Christian, Evangelical or what in the spirit world tomorrow if I die tonight?

Honestly Nav, at that point I really don't think I'll much care. ; ) Though I may run in opposition to some fellow active LDS friends, I don't believe what will be presented in the hereafter will be the LDS gospel but rather a perfected gospel as seen through the pure prism of the Godhead. Did the LDS approximate this pure gospel in this mortality? You betcha and I believe closer than anyone else. ; ) Will there be 'Mormon missionaries' ready to teach you? I don't believe so. I too don't believe there will be denominations there. Your gospel view will be completed and so will mine. Will everyone need to receive the ordinances through the priesthood? Yes, I do believe that. Do I believe He has given the LDS faith the burden of administering those ordinances here in this mortality? Yes. Is that the litmus for who gets into the pearlies? Not even close. Hmmm, maybe I should start my own gospel!! ;o

[Navidad]

23 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

Honestly Nav, at that point I really don't think I'll much care. ; ) Though I may run in opposition to some fellow active LDS friends, I don't believe what will be presented in the hereafter will be the LDS gospel but rather a perfected gospel as seen through the pure prism of the Godhead. Did the LDS approximate this pure gospel in this mortality? You betcha and I believe closer than anyone else. ; ) Will there be 'Mormon missionaries' ready to teach you? I don't believe so. I too don't believe there will be denominations there. Your gospel view will be completed and so will mine. Will everyone need to receive the ordinances through the priesthood? Yes, I do believe that. Do I believe He has given the LDS faith the burden of administering those ordinances here in this mortality? Yes. Is that the litmus for who gets into the pearlies? Not even close. Hmmm, maybe I should start my own gospel!! ;o

Well, If you do start your own, let me know. The First Church of NavGuard! I really like the idea of a non-LDS but perfected gospel as seen through the pure prism of the Godhead. You said that well. The word for perfect in the NT is the word for complete. I love the idea of the complete gospel as seen through and by the Godhead. Well said! I better not agree too much with you or you will be in trouble for consorting with the enemy! Best!

 

[Navidad]

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

Surely, you can understand why I cringe when the terrestrial kingdom is compared to "hell".  That is a corruption of what we teach. 

I am not suggesting you teach that the terrestrial kingdom is compared to hell. I am stating that I believe that hell is a place that is absent the presence of God for eternity. Until a few minutes ago I had not heard of the terrestrial being the permanent abode of Christ for eternity. I always thought of Christ abiding with the Father for eternity. Take care.

[Kenngo1969]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Yes, I want some more. Just read this one five times. Nothing in there I can see about folks accepting LDS ordinances in the spirit world as an option. I might have missed it. I have now been through all three of your sources. íMas por favor!

I don't have any sources.  I'm sorry.  But why else would we perform ordinances in the Temple?

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Honestly Nav, at that point I really don't think I'll much care. ; ) Though I may run in opposition to some fellow active LDS friends, I don't believe what will be presented in the hereafter will be the LDS gospel but rather a perfected gospel as seen through the pure prism of the Godhead. Did the LDS approximate this pure gospel in this mortality? You betcha and I believe closer than anyone else. ; ) Will there be 'Mormon missionaries' ready to teach you? I don't believe so. I too don't believe there will be denominations there. Your gospel view will be completed and so will mine. Will everyone need to receive the ordinances through the priesthood? Yes, I do believe that. Do I believe He has given the LDS faith the burden of administering those ordinances here in this mortality? Yes. Is that the litmus for who gets into the pearlies? Not even close. Hmmm, maybe I should start my own gospel!! ;o

This is my point of view as well.  I actually cringe at times when people refer to activity in the Millennium or the Afterlife as “Mormon” or “LDS”.  At best we are a subset of God’s church/family and there is no reason to believe the current version will be given dominance to ‘run things’ over versions presented in other dispensations, but I think it more likely we just all get folded into the heavenly version that was existing long before and long after any mortal versions and most of the mortal organizations/communities will get dumped for the pure and full truth of God’s Gospel

[Calm]

6 hours ago, pogi said:

I understand why you believe that your mortal baptism will be viewed as valid in the eyes of God, but in the end, it is not your belief or my belief that dictates what will be seen as valid.  One of us will be wrong about that. 

Or both…  

[Navidad]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't have any sources.  I'm sorry.  But why else would we perform ordinances in the Temple?

I don't know. I have never been in a temple except two open houses! I think maybe however to keep some covenants, to demonstrate faithfulness and worthiness? Is there not a benefit to the individual Saint who does  temple work as well as to the one for whom the work is done? Just speculating. Is not a temple recommend an indicator of faithfulness on the part of the one who holds it? Thanks.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Navidad

[Vanguard]

13 hours ago, Navidad said:

Well, If you do start your own, let me know. The First Church of NavGuard! I really like the idea of a non-LDS but perfected gospel as seen through the pure prism of the Godhead. You said that well. The word for perfect in the NT is the word for complete. I love the idea of the complete gospel as seen through and by the Godhead. Well said! I better not agree too much with you or you will be in trouble for consorting with the enemy! Best!

 

Actually, it could be called "Van-idad" though that's Spanish for vanity. Hmmm... ; )

[Navidad]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Or both…  

Well said!