Dallas Jenkins Walking a Tightrope

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Historically this is simply not the case and the Church has been very disparaging of other Christian sects.  And I think you know this well.  Let's just start with the beginnings:

18 My object in going to ^ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all ^awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those ^bprofessors were all ^ccorrupt; that: “they ^ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ^ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the ^fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the ^gpower thereof.”

 

If Smac is like me, he doesn’t view believing that someone is wrong, or holds a wrong belief, to be disparaging.

It would be irrational for a Baptist to not believe that I am wrong in some of my doctrine.  Being disagreed with isn’t disparaging in my view.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, bluebell said:

If Smac is like me, he doesn’t view believing that someone is wrong, or holds a wrong belief, to be disparaging.

It would be irrational for a Baptist to not believe that I am wrong in some of my doctrine.  Being disagreed with isn’t disparaging in my view.

Their creeds are an abomination. Most non LDS Christians I know find that very offensive. And I am sure just like SMAC you are likely aware of other rhetoric from LDS leaders historically that are very disparaging of other Christian sects. I am happy to provide sources if you wish.  But to me, it is disingenuous to pretend the LDS Church and its leaders and teachers have not been very disparaging of "apostate" Christianity up until maybe the past 20 or so years.

[bluebell]

52 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Their creeds are an abomination. Most non LDS Christians I know find that very offensive. And I am sure just like SMAC you are likely aware of other rhetoric from LDS leaders historically that are very disparaging of other Christian sects. I am happy to provide sources if you wish.  But to me, it is disingenuous to pretend the LDS Church and its leaders and teachers have not been very disparaging of "apostate" Christianity up until maybe the past 20 or so years.

I have no doubt that there have been leaders who have said some authoritative disparaging things over the last couple hundred years.  I don't know that that just ended in 2002 though, and I don't know that it's been a tenet of the church to refer to all other Christian religions as "apostate Christianity".

But my only point was that simply being disagreed with, or being told that some aspect of my doctrine is seen as bad by God, is not the same thing as being disparaged in my view.  I fully expect other Christian religions to view at least some of my beliefs in that way.  I would find it weird if they didn't.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I have no doubt that there have been leaders who have said some authoritative disparaging things over the last couple hundred years.  I don't know that that just ended in 2002 though, and I don't know that it's been a tenet of the church to refer to all other Christian religions as "apostate Christianity".

But my only point was that simply being disagreed with, or being told that some aspect of my doctrine is seen as bad by God, is not the same thing as being disparaged in my view.  I fully expect other Christian religions to view at least some of my beliefs in that way.  I would find it weird if they didn't.

Being told your foundational creeds are an abomination is not disparagement. Okay. Is being told that rejecting said creeds makes you not a Christian, disparagement?

[bluebell]

12 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Being told your foundational creeds are an abomination is not disparagement. Okay. Is being told that rejecting said creeds makes you not a Christian, disparagement?

I get what you are saying and I can see where the disconnect is between our understanding of that. 

Even in the First Vision, when God says the creeds are an abomination, our church does not apply that to the individual's relationship with God or to God's relationship to them.

• We do not teach that espousing such creeds means that God does not love the people in those churches. 
• We do not teach that because of those creeds, everyone who believes them are going to go to hell. 
• We don't teach that because of those creeds that those who follow them are not still followers of Christ. 

In short, that First Vision does not connect doctrinal belief to someone's personal relationship with their Savior.  It makes a statement of doctrinal fact (from my perspective), but not a statement of personal judgement. 

It does not say "Because your creeds are an abomination, your belief in Christ is worthless or useless".  But that is exactly what some other Christians say about me because of my beliefs.

That is what I mean when I speak of disparagement.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I get what you are saying and I can see where the disconnect is between our understanding of that. 

Even in the First Vision, when God says the creeds are an abomination, our church does not apply that to the individual's relationship with God or to God's relationship to them.

• We do not teach that espousing such creeds means that God does not love the people in those churches. 
   

When someone says you aren’t Christian that doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love you

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

• We do not teach that because of those creeds, everyone who believes them are going to go to hell. 
   

Depends on what you mean by hell:

”Latter-day revelations speak of hell in at least two ways. First, it is another name for spirit prison, a temporary place in the postmortal world for those who died without a knowledge of the truth or those who were disobedient in mortality. “

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/hell?lang=eng
 

Additionally you teach the only way to get to heaven and live with God is to abandon their foundational creeds and join your church. 

24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

• We don't teach that because of those creeds that those who follow them are not still followers of Christ. 

In short, that First Vision does not connect doctrinal belief to someone's personal relationship with their Savior.  It makes a statement of doctrinal fact (from my perspective), but not a statement of personal judgement. 

It does not say "Because your creeds are an abomination, your belief in Christ is worthless or useless".  But that is exactly what some other Christians say about me because of my beliefs.

That is what I mean when I speak of disparagement.

 

To me all of the above is splitting hairs. As an outsider it appears to me as special pleading. 
 

It’s okay when I disparage your beliefs because my beliefs are true and I do it the right way. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I have no doubt that there have been leaders who have said some authoritative disparaging things over the last couple hundred years. 

It is not just some. It was a lot. 

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

 

I don't know that that just ended in 2002 though, and I don't know that it's been a tenet of the church to refer to all other Christian religions as "apostate Christianity".

I served my mission from 1979-1981. Our lesson approach was to teach the restoration, FV, etc right out of the box. All churches were wrong.  All lacked authority. Have you been baptized?  God does not recognize that. We taught about the great apostasy.  Put yourself in the shoes of others for a minute and look at that message and tell me that is is just simply being disagreed with.  Mormons bristle at being called a cult or not Christian but they have a huge blind spot when it comes to seeing how others view the LDS doctrinal approach to an apostasy, restoration, need for authoritive ordinances, creeds and abomination and so on.  

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

But my only point was that simply being disagreed with, or being told that some aspect of my doctrine is seen as bad by God, is not the same thing as being disparaged in my view.  I fully expect other Christian religions to view at least some of my beliefs in that way.  I would find it weird if they didn't.

Yea I think you are demonstrating that blind spot quite well.

[bluebell]

34 minutes ago, Teancum said:

It is not just some. It was a lot. 

I served my mission from 1979-1981. Our lesson approach was to teach the restoration, FV, etc right out of the box. All churches were wrong.  All lacked authority. Have you been baptized?  God does not recognize that. We taught about the great apostasy.  Put yourself in the shoes of others for a minute and look at that message and tell me that is is just simply being disagreed with.  Mormons bristle at being called a cult or not Christian but they have a huge blind spot when it comes to seeing how others view the LDS doctrinal approach to an apostasy, restoration, need for authoritive ordinances, creeds and abomination and so on.  

Yea I think you are demonstrating that blind spot quite well.

I served from 1998-99.  Our lessons went in that same order (though I'm guessing they weren't the same?).  I never taught it like you seem to be saying that you taught it.

Different people, different personalities, different approaches to the doctrine I guess.

[bluebell]

43 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It’s okay when I disparage your beliefs because my beliefs are true and I do it the right way. 

Nothing I said agrees with your statement above.  

[Teancum]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I served from 1998-99.  Our lessons went in that same order (though I'm guessing they weren't the same?).  I never taught it like you seem to be saying that you taught it.

Your prescribed lessons were very different from those we used almost twenty years earlier.

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Different people, different personalities, different approaches to the doctrine I guess.

You seem to struggle to grasp the idea that no matter how you say it, telling someone their Christianity is apostate, that their baptism is no good, that they need a new one with the proper authority, that their creeds are an abomination and essentially (and LDS leaders have said this many times) you worship a different God and Jesus is disparaging. And we feel the same way when they say it about us.

[bluebell]

22 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Your prescribed lessons were very different from those we used almost twenty years earlier.

You seem to struggle to grasp the idea that no matter how you say it, telling someone their Christianity is apostate, that their baptism is no good, that they need a new one with the proper authority, that their creeds are an abomination and essentially (and LDS leaders have said this many times) you worship a different God and Jesus is disparaging. And we feel the same way when they say it about us.

You feel much more comfortable wielding a broad brush and speaking for large groups of people than I do.

For the record, it does not upset me that Catholics, for example, believe that my religion does not have the proper authority.  It does not annoy me if they believe me to be an apostate.  I do not care that they denounce much of my doctrine or believe my baptism is no good.

The same goes for Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelicals, whatever.

I don't consider any of those things to be disparaging of me or my religion.

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

You feel much more comfortable wielding a broad brush and speaking for large groups of people than I do.

For the record, it does not upset me that Catholics, for example, believe that my religion does not have the proper authority.  It does not annoy me if they believe me to be an apostate.  I do not care that they denounce much of my doctrine or believe my baptism is no good.

The same goes for Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelicals, whatever.

I don't consider any of those things to be disparaging of me or my religion.

so you are quite fine with an evangelical Christian telling you that you are not Christian, that you will burn in hell because you worship a false Jesus, that you are part of a cult and so on?  You don't view that as disparaging?

As for wielding a broad brush I have quite a bit of experience talking to people of other faiths on their thoughts and views and how they feel about the historical LDS position on apostate Christianity.  Most familiar with the position of the Church that I have interacted with do find it offensive.  But that is just my experience.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

so you are quite fine with an evangelical Christian telling you that you are not Christian, that you will burn in hell because you worship a false Jesus, that you are part of a cult and so on?  You don't view that as disparaging?

 

No, I do find that disparaging.  I just don't find that to be at all the same as what you described in your last post.

Quote

As for wielding a broad brush I have quite a bit of experience talking to people of other faiths on their thoughts and views and how they feel about the historical LDS position on apostate Christianity.  Most familiar with the position of the Church that I have interacted with do find it offensive.  But that is just my experience.

Ok.

Can you share where this idea of "apostate Christianity" comes from that you keep using.  It's not a term that I can find on lds.org but you keep implying it's what the church teaches about other religions.

[Teancum]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, I do find that disparaging.  I just don't find that to be at all the same as what you described in your last post.

Ok.

Can you share where this idea of "apostate Christianity" comes from that you keep using.  It's not a term that I can find on lds.org but you keep implying it's what the church teaches about other religions.

All the following quotes lend to the idea that the Church teaches Christianity is in a state of apostacy.  Thus my use of the words Apostate Christianity."

That there was a great apostacy is a core LDS doctrine.  Talmadge wrote an entire book called The Great Apostacy.  If Christianity went through and apostacy and the doctrine of the church is that true Christianity had to be restored that means all other Christian sects are in one  degree of apostasy or another.

 

“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171

“...the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans. And subsequently the Priesthood was taken from among men, this authority was re-called into the heavens, and the world was left without the Priesthood—without the power of God—without the Church and Kingdom of God.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 44

"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89

 

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches…But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance"
 

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness."

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 266

"For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the ‘Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men."

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 282

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985):

“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46
“... all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375

 

[Navidad]

29 minutes ago, Teancum said:

All the following quotes lend to the idea that the Church teaches Christianity is in a state of apostacy.  Thus my use of the words Apostate Christianity."

That there was a great apostacy is a core LDS doctrine.  Talmadge wrote an entire book called The Great Apostacy.  If Christianity went through and apostacy and the doctrine of the church is that true Christianity had to be restored that means all other Christian sects are in one  degree of apostasy or another.

 

“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171

“...the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans. And subsequently the Priesthood was taken from among men, this authority was re-called into the heavens, and the world was left without the Priesthood—without the power of God—without the Church and Kingdom of God.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 44

"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89

 

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches…But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance"
 

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness."

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 266

"For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the ‘Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men."

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 282

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985):

“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46
“... all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375

 

Very sad and scary stuff. What perhaps is most significant to me is that I see quotes that were written and or published in my life time. I am old, but not that old!

[bluebell]

40 minutes ago, Teancum said:

All the following quotes lend to the idea that the Church teaches Christianity is in a state of apostacy.  Thus my use of the words Apostate Christianity."

That there was a great apostacy is a core LDS doctrine.  Talmadge wrote an entire book called The Great Apostacy.  If Christianity went through and apostacy and the doctrine of the church is that true Christianity had to be restored that means all other Christian sects are in one  degree of apostasy or another.

 

“Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, v. 1, p. xl

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 171

“...the time came when Paganism was engrafted into Christianity, and at last Christianity was converted into Paganism rather than converting the Pagans. And subsequently the Priesthood was taken from among men, this authority was re-called into the heavens, and the world was left without the Priesthood—without the power of God—without the Church and Kingdom of God.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 22, p. 44

"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.

- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, v. 5, p. 89

 

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century."

- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 167

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent."

- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches…But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance"
 

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness."

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 266

"For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the ‘Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men."

- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, v. 3, p. 282

Apostle Bruce R. McConkie (1915 - 1985):

“Believers in the doctrines of modern Christendom will reap damnation to their souls.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, see pp. 45-46
“... all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ.... in large part the worship of apostate Christendom is performed in ignorance, as much so as was the worship of the Athenians who bowed the Unknown Gods.”

- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 269, 374-375

 

Thank goodness Mormon Doctrine is not official, and that BRM was sanctioned for writing it and forced to change parts of it by the First Presidency.  Do we know if that section is from the first edition or the edited one?  I wouldn't be surprised if it is from later editions, because BRM had some harsh views, but I'd like to know either way.

The stuff from BY and other contemporary church leader views are things I was expecting.  We don't teach that today and haven't for much longer than 2 decades, but they were pretty disparaging back then.  Thankfully most of the churches today also no longer teach the things about us that they used to back then.

The stuff on the apostasy in general, that is pretty tame.  Yes, we teach that other Christian religions fell away from the truth centuries ago and eventually lost priesthood authority, but we don't teach that other Christian religions are apostates in the sense that they are disloyal to the gospel, or defected from it, or were/are faithless. 

Apostasy and apostate have a lot of different meanings. It's easy to assume one meaning is meant when it's not, especially for people who aren't of the faith and have assumed things about the use of the word 'apostasy' that might not be true.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Very sad and scary stuff. What perhaps is most significant to me is that I see quotes that were written and or published in my life time. I am old, but not that old!

The only one that was published in your lifetime was in an unofficial book where the author got in some trouble for writing it by the prophet himself.

[Teancum]

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

Thank goodness Mormon Doctrine is not official,

This is the typical apologetic.  Correct.  It was his work.  Yet he was a powerful, vocal and popular apostle.  Members took his words and works seriously.  During the 60s through at least the late 90s most members owned the book and referenced it often.  LDS lesson manuals referenced it often as well.  Only those embarrassed by it say what you are saying.

 

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

and that BRM was sanctioned for writing it

Yet he wrote it.  To the displeasure of President McKay. ANd how was he sanctioned?  What does that mean?  It certainly was not public.Members at the time knew nothing about this.

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

and forced to change parts of it by the First Presidency. 

Yes I know all this,.  Yet the work was published and the quotes are there after the so changes.  So what difference doe this make?

 

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

Do we know if that section is from the first edition or the edited one?  I wouldn't be surprised if it is from later editions, because BRM had some harsh views, but I'd like to know either way.

These views are from the later editions best as I can recall.

 

 

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

The stuff from BY and other contemporary church leader views are things I was expecting.  We don't teach that today and haven't for much longer than 2 decades, but they were pretty disparaging back then.

Yet they are part of what the Church is.  You asked why I used the term apostate Christianity.  I gave you evidence of where the idea anr term comes from. Has the church stopped teaching that there was a great apostasy?  Has it stopped quoting Js and his FV account about the creeds being an abomination and that all the other church's are wrong?  The core doctrine is still there.  We just are nicer know, smile more and such.

 

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

 

Thankfully most of the churches today also no longer teach the things about us that they used to back then.

So evangelical critics have gone away?

12 hours ago, bluebell said:

The stuff on the apostasy in general, that is pretty tame.  Yes, we teach that other Christian religions fell away from the truth centuries ago and eventually lost priesthood authority, but we don't teach that other Christian religions are apostates in the sense that they are disloyal to the gospel, or defected from it, or were/are faithless. 

Apostasy and apostate have a lot of different meanings. It's easy to assume one meaning is meant when it's not, especially for people who aren't of the faith and have assumed things about the use of the word 'apostasy' that might not be true.

Well how about one of our board non LDS Christians comment on how they feel about this?  What do you think apostasy means?  How is apostasy tame? How is it different from apostate?

[Teancum]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

The only one that was published in your lifetime was in an unofficial book where the author got in some trouble for writing it by the prophet himself.

Hardly any trouble at all.  @Navidad how about you let us know what you and other good Christians think when you are told that Christianity went through a great apostasy and that your brand of Christianity has no authority and if you were baptized its no good and you need another one by and LDS priesthood holder for it to count.  Blueblee thinks this is all just milk toast and not disparaging at all.

[Kenngo1969]

@Teancum ,

I'm happy to see you sticking up for other religions, since, given your posting history as it has developed, you haven't had much use, not only for your former faith as a now-skeptical Latter-day Saint, but for religion in general.  Certainly, it's an improvement.  I'll take it.

Warm Regards and Best Wishes,

-Kenngo1969 

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

The only one that was published in your lifetime was in an unofficial book where the author got in some trouble for writing it by the prophet himself.

Joseph Fielding Smith's famous set of doctrine was published in my lifetime as well. Its publication was quite proclaimed in many ways. Having expressed my disappointment in much of what is said in these quotes, I also recognize and advocate for the fact that normalizing is a terrible practice. When we normalize we make the fringe of any movement the norm. That is neither accurate, nor fair. It is an effective apologetic tool and a cheap shot. I acknowledge that.

My challenge however is that these quotes are not from fringe figures, like some Fundamentalist's quote on a website who no one has ever heard of or who has no official standing in their faith or no hierarchy to hold them accountable. These are not people standing on a corner spitting into the wind to hear themselves and earn brownie points with God. These quotes come from the very highest leaders of the LDS movement at the time of publication.

I don't like the defense mechanism known as denial. I think it perhaps is better to acknowledge that over the years, continuing in some circles today, on all sides of this issue, there have been horrible things said about the other. No group has any virtue in the terrible othering that has and continues to occur. I do believe that each group depends on virtue signalling. I cannot tell you how many times faithful LDS folks have said to my wife or I that the comments, generalizations, normalizations coming from their own mouths are not "personal," nor aimed at us as individuals. They are simply a function of LDS doctrine. In some cases, they are absolutely apologetic. In other words, the comments are inevitable and justified because they come from God. There are many religious groups who do the same to one degree or another. It is why religion as conflict is such a growing field in philosophical, historical, and theological studies. Persecution is a key toxic component of religious identity that justifies and sometimes creates toxic sense of self and doctrine.

I wish we all (including me) could get beyond the normalizing, generalizing, ranking, and dehumanization that seems to linger whenever doctrine descends into dogma and then duty. How many hundreds of thousands of human lives have been lost due to religious duty?  I think things get especially toxic when we take pride in our ability to defend, deflect, and/or defeat the other, especially via our syllogistic acumen.   

[Kenngo1969]

The Eleventh Article of Faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reads:

Quote

“We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Articles of Faith 1:11.

 

Doctrine and Covenants Section 134, Verse 4 reads:

 

Quote

“We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe on the rights of others … that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.” Doctrine and Covenants 134:4, ellipses added.

 

Joseph Smith once said:

 

Quote

“The Saints can testify whether I am willing to lay down my life for my brethren. If it has been demonstrated that I have been willing to die for a ‘Mormon.’ I am bold to declare before Heaven that I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination; for the same principle which would trample upon the rights of the Latter-day Saints would trample upon the rights of the Roman Catholics, or of any other denomination who may be unpopular and too weak to defend themselves.” Joseph Smith (1843), History of the Church [of Jesus Christ of Latterday-Saints], Vol. 5 p. 498, via FAIR at this link, last accessed June 2, 2022: https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Joseph_Smith_(1843):_%22I_am_just_as_ready_to_die_in_defending_the_rights_of_a_Presbyterian,_a_Baptist,_or_a_good_man_of_any_other_denomination%22

 

In the official publication of the Church for adults at the time, the Ensign, Brother R. Lanier Britsch answered the question, “What is the relationship of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to the non-Christian religions of the world?”

 

Quote

When we speak of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the only true church, we mean that it is the only organization authorized to administer the ordinances of salvation. We mean that it is the only organization led by Jesus Christ, through the earthly ministries of prophets and Apostles. Although the Church teaches the true doctrines of salvation, we do not mean that it is the only teacher of truth. R. Lanier Britsch (January 1988), “I Have a Question,” Ensign, accessed on line at the following address on June 2, 2022: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1988/01/i-have-a-question/what-is-the-relationship-of-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints-to-the-non-christian-religions-of-the-world?lang=eng

 

And, certainly, if the Church of Jesus Christ, its teachings, and its leaders can see the good in the non-Christian religions of the world, there is no reason to suspect that they feel any differently toward their fellow Christians. Brother Britsch also quotes, in its entirety as near as I can tell, the official statement of the First Presidency Church of Jesus Christ from February 15, 1978, “God’s Love for All Mankind”:

 

Quote

 

“Based upon ancient and modern revelation, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints gladly teaches and declares the Christian doctrine that all men and women are brothers and sisters, not only by blood relationship from mortal progenitors, but also as literal spirit children of an Eternal Father.

“The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammed, Confucius, and the Reformers, as well as philosophers including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

“The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation for all mankind who believe in the gospel.

“Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come.

“We also declare that the gospel of Jesus Christ, restored to his Church in our day, provides the only way to a mortal life of happiness and a fullness of joy forever. For those who have not received this gospel, the opportunity will come to them in the life hereafter if not in this life.

“Our message therefore is one of special love and concern for the eternal welfare of all men and women, regardless of religious belief, race, or nationality, knowing that we are truly brothers and sisters because we are the sons and daughters of the same Eternal Father.”

Id.

 

And Doctrine and Covenants 58:28 reads in part, "(I)nasmuch as men do good, they shall in nowise lose their reward."  And there is no religious limitation on that scripture.  It applies whether one is a Latter-day Saint, a Baptist, a Lutheran, a Roman Catholic, or even if one adheres to no religious tradition whatsoever.

Just a few of my thoughts, for whatever they're worth.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

My challenge however is that these quotes are not from fringe figures [...]. These quotes come from the very highest leaders of the LDS movement at the time of publication.

Martin Luther said (and did) much worse to Anabaptists, Jews, and others back in his day. Same goes for many of the other Reformers as well, not to mention the Catholic church.

We tend to be much more civil nowadays. I think that's probably a good thing, but that doesn't mean that we don't have meaningful theological disagreements.

Those have and always will exist. Those of us not steeped in the rhetoric of the Second Great Awakening are likely going to be much more congenial when expressing those disagreements, but I don't have a problem with former leaders of the church talking about these subjects in a much more forthright manner either.

If there really was a Great Apostasy and Christ's church really has been restored to the earth, then we have got an obligation to tell people about it. And I'm not going to lose any sleep if some of the early prophets called by God to do so didn't sufficiently sugar coat that message to some people's liking.

 

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

@Teancum ,

I'm happy to see you sticking up for other religions,

Hmm.  Not sure how I am sticking up for them. Just trying to illustrate how non LDS Christians may view the LDS position and find it offensive.

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

since, given your posting history as it has developed, you haven't had much use, not only for your former faith as a now-skeptical Latter-day Saint, but for religion in general.  Certainly, it's an improvement.  I'll take it.

Warm Regards and Best Wishes,

-Kenngo1969 

Well sorry to disappoint my friend but I still mostly see religion as a man made device and the gods that religions want us to worship seem created in man's image and man not in God's image.  And while religion can do a lot of good I think it does a lot of damage. Especially conservative high demand religions. And I loathe what conservative evangelical Christianity has and is doing to the United States. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by Teancum

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Joseph Fielding Smith's famous set of doctrine was published in my lifetime as well. Its publication was quite proclaimed in many ways. Having expressed my disappointment in much of what is said in these quotes, I also recognize and advocate for the fact that normalizing is a terrible practice. When we normalize we make the fringe of any movement the norm. That is neither accurate, nor fair. It is an effective apologetic tool and a cheap shot. I acknowledge that.

My challenge however is that these quotes are not from fringe figures, like some Fundamentalist's quote on a website who no one has ever heard of or who has no official standing in their faith or no hierarchy to hold them accountable. These are not people standing on a corner spitting into the wind to hear themselves and earn brownie points with God. These quotes come from the very highest leaders of the LDS movement at the time of publication.

I don't like the defense mechanism known as denial. I think it perhaps is better to acknowledge that over the years, continuing in some circles today, on all sides of this issue, there have been horrible things said about the other. No group has any virtue in the terrible othering that has and continues to occur. I do believe that each group depends on virtue signalling. I cannot tell you how many times faithful LDS folks have said to my wife or I that the comments, generalizations, normalizations coming from their own mouths are not "personal," nor aimed at us as individuals. They are simply a function of LDS doctrine. In some cases, they are absolutely apologetic. In other words, the comments are inevitable and justified because they come from God. There are many religious groups who do the same to one degree or another. It is why religion as conflict is such a growing field in philosophical, historical, and theological studies. Persecution is a key toxic component of religious identity that justifies and sometimes creates toxic sense of self and doctrine.

I wish we all (including me) could get beyond the normalizing, generalizing, ranking, and dehumanization that seems to linger whenever doctrine descends into dogma and then duty. How many hundreds of thousands of human lives have been lost due to religious duty?  I think things get especially toxic when we take pride in our ability to defend, deflect, and/or defeat the other, especially via our syllogistic acumen.   

In my opinion, the reality of our doctrine on the existence of the great apostasy and past prophets speaking about it, while disappointing or disparaging to some I'm sure, is not on the same level as the BRM quote.

And I did acknowledge the horrible things said in the past.  But you don't want acknowledgement as much as you want agreement that we shouldn't believe in the apostasy or the need for priesthood authority.  And we will probably never get there on those things.

Edited June 2, 2022 by bluebell