mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 20 hours ago, Teancum said: Are you sure that based on LDS doctrine those who were not baptized LDS etc will have more knowledge on which to make a decision? I don't recall that being taught. If that is the case then who wouldn't accept the LDS ordinances assuming they are the correct ones? What do those in "Spirit Prison" really know? Maybe their "veil" has not been totally lifted. YES! This is all doctrinal stuff. The belief is that there are missionaries preaching and teaching those who have not heard the gospel for their progression. Absolutely doctrinal! And being dead they clearly see at the very LEAST that there is life after death! And all will be resurrected, so they will know that, and remember there are more than one resurrection, if you are not ready for the first one. You will see this happening! Resurrection is an ORDINANCE and happens individually, that it IS an ordinance we know because it has been described as the ordinance no one yet knows how to do, except Christ of course. And that is what is meant by EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW because it will be obvious that Jesus is the Christ, and these are HIS teachings, not little old Joe Smith with his human checkered past.
mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 20 hours ago, Teancum said: Define spiritual death. My understanding is it is separation from God. So anyone not in the Celestial Kingdom suffers a form of spiritual death. It is NOT defined as only being a SoP. No, spiritual death is ultimately Outer Darkness. Those are literally those few who DENY Christ, like looking directly into the sun and denying it's light. It is voluntarily accepting Satan, denying God while knowing everything. Almost no one will be in outer darkness. We call it "spiritual death" when we sin as a figure of speech, like calling a cigarette a "death/cancer" stick. Yes sin is the PATH to spiritual death AND is one step perhaps in that direction, but one cigarette will not literally kill you either! 2
Teancum Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 19 hours ago, mfbukowski said: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/kingdoms-of-glory?lang=eng http://ldslastdays.com/every-knee-shall-bow/ https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ftsoy/2021/07/11_you-can-make-it?lang=eng Want more? They're everywhere These show 99% will accept the LDS ordinances in the after life?
Kenngo1969 Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 4 hours ago, Navidad said: I don't know. I have never been in a temple except two open houses! I think maybe however to keep some covenants, to demonstrate faithfulness and worthiness? Is there not a benefit to the individual Saint who does temple work as well as to the one for whom the work is done? Just speculating. Is not a temple recommend an indicator of faithfulness on the part of the one who holds it? Thanks. Yes, but those are ancillary benefits. The principal benefit accrues to the person on whose behalf the ordinances are performed and who chooses to accept them. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 31 minutes ago, Teancum said: These show 99% will accept the LDS ordinances in the after life? Somewhere above you asked who would NOT accept the CK if they understood it. No one would, exactly. !!! AND: “All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; “Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom; “For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts” (Doctrine and Covenants 137:7–9)." So IF you would have accepted it without misunderstanding, you are in. You are judged according to the desires of your heart!! Once their hearts change, every knee will bow !! As you said, who would NOT? There was a similar statement made recently in conference, and in the past @Calm HELP!
mfbukowski Posted June 4, 2022 Posted June 4, 2022 1 hour ago, Teancum said: These show 99% will accept the LDS ordinances in the after life? It seems to me you recently made a long philosophically oriented response to me, that I owe you an answer for, but now I cannot find it. Would you please help me find it. ? If you have ANY questions unanswered for me, I will do my best. I feel a kinship with your quest.
Calm Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, mfbukowski said: There was a similar statement made recently in conference, and in the past @Calm HELP! The church website is the worst to search. Any way to narrow it down for Google just in case I can’t find the website which has all the conference talks ever? Edited June 5, 2022 by Calm
mfbukowski Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 36 minutes ago, Calm said: The church website is the worst to search. Anyway to narrow it down for Google just in case I can’t find the website which has all the conference talks ever? Well I just searched 'LDS "every knee shall bow"' and got a ton of hits- but I am pretty sure that there was a talk recently that pretty much showed how universalist we are- and the fundamentalists among us seem to never "get " that. Yes I said it! But the dominant belief seems to be that you have to be perfect from birth to death to get in the door of the CK, which is not at all the case, especially if you have been taught erroneous info by overly strict parents or teachers. Anyway, if you have time to help that would be great- I have a serious plumbing problem during a remodel and have contractors running around and it's hard for me to concentrate on this, but I think a good bunch of quotes could help a lot of folks who have this problem to the point where they automatically eliminate the CK as "real". AND you are the best researcher I know, but I don't want to impose- I know you have your own limitations. So thanks either way! 2
Calm Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: AND you are the best researcher I know, but I don't want to impose- I know you have your own limitations. Thank you. If I can focus, I will definitely try. Have tried a few obvious ones already, but pulled up too many scripture references. Need to find the conference site…that should be easy conference talks website https://www.lds-general-conference.org This also includes the conference talks starting in 1971 and has a beautiful search function. Brings a tear to my eye when I use it. https://scriptures.byu.edu Edited June 5, 2022 by Calm 2
Calm Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Well I just searched 'LDS "every knee shall bow"' and got a ton of hits- but I am pretty sure that there was a talk recently that pretty much showed how universalist we are- and the fundamentalists among us seem to never "get " that. Yes I said it! But the dominant belief seems to be that you have to be perfect from birth to death to get in the door of the CK, which is not at all the case, especially if you have been taught erroneous info by overly strict parents or teachers. Have you seen this article? I was rather surprised to see it on wiki. Seems a little too niche, but interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universalism_and_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement Quote On February 16, 1832, Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon announced they had received a revelation from God outlining the "important points touching the salvation of man." According to the revelation, all humanity will be saved in one of three degrees of glory, except for a small number who commit the unpardonable sin who will be banished to outer darkness. This revelation became known as "the Vision".[18] Many converts to the early church disagreed with Universalism and felt the Book of Mormon justified their views. When news of "the Vision" reached the branches of the church, it was not well received by all and seen by many as a major shift in theology towards Universalism.[11] An antagonistic newspaper wrote that with "the Vision" Joseph Smith had tried to "disgrace Universalism by professing ... the salvation of all men."[79][18] The branch in Geneseo, New York was particularly apprehensive. Ezra Landon, a leader of the Geneseo branch who had convinced a number of others against the Vision, told visiting missionaries that "the vision was of the Devil & he believed it no more than he believed the devil was crucified ... & that he Br Landing would not have the vision taught in the church for $1000." Joseph Smith sent a letter to the branch making clear that disbelief in the Vision was an excommunicable offense, and after refusing to change his position Landon was excommunicated.[18][80] Brigham Young said, It was a great trial to many, and some apostatized because God was not going to send to everlasting punishment heathens and infants, but had a place of salvation, in due time, for all, and would bless the honest and virtuous and truthful, whether they ever belonged to any church or not. It was a new doctrine to this generation, and many stumbled at it. ... My traditions were such, that when the Vision came first to me, it was directly contrary and opposed to my former education. I said, Wait a little. I did not reject it; but I could not understand it.[3][81] Joseph Young, Brigham's brother, said, "I could not believe it at first. Why the Lord was going to save every body."[82][18] "The Vision" was not published until five months after it was received, and after the first two years was rarely mentioned in the 1830s or early 1840s.[3]After the tepid reception of "the Vision", Joseph Smith gave instruction to missionaries to "remain silent" about it, until prospective converts had first believed the basic principles.[18][83] Quote Starting around 1842 Joseph Smith and others appeared to be more open to being viewed as Universalist. Smith said in a speech in 1844, "I have no fear of hell fire, that doesn't exist, but the torment and disappointment of the mind of man is as exquisite as a lake burning with fire and brimstone."[84][3] Speaking of the resurrection, apostle Parley P. Pratt said, "This salvation being universal, I am a universalist in this respect,—this salvation being a universal restoration from the fall."[85] In a sermon, Brigham Young read the contents of "the Vision" and then commented, "His plans are to gather up, and bring together, and save all the inhabitants of the earth, with the exception of those who have received the Holy Ghost, and sinned against it. With this exception, all the world besides shall be saved.—Is not this Universalism? It borders very close upon it."[86] Edited June 5, 2022 by Calm 3
Calm Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) https://rsc.byu.edu/doctrine-covenants-revelations-context/universalism-revelations-joseph-smith Quote Foremost among those who embraced the revelation was the Prophet himself. Joseph was jubilant upon the reception of the vision. Looking back on the experience, he wrote: Nothing could be more pleasing to the Saints upon the order of the kingdom of the Lord, than the light which burst upon the world through the foregoing vision. Every law, every commandment, every promise, every truth, and every point touching the destiny of man, from Genesis to Revelation, where the purity of the scriptures remains unsullied by the folly of men, go to show the perfection of the theory [of different degrees of glory in the future life] and witnesses the fact that that document is a transcript from the records of the eternal world. The sublimity of the ideas; the purity of the language; the scope for action; the continued duration for completion, in order that the heirs of salvation may confess the Lord and bow the knee; the rewards for faithfulness, and the punishment for sins, are so much beyond the narrow-mindedness of men, that every honest man is constrained to exclaim: “It came from God.”[1] Quote In time the vision was recognized as one of the greatest revelations received by the Prophet. Brigham Young, who had initially struggled to accept it, became one of the most fervent teachers and admirers of its doctrine. Speaking in 1860 he said, I can truly say that, in my estimation, no other revelation so glorious was ever given. You may read the character of the Deity as portrayed in all that has ever been revealed, until you come to this vision [D&C 76], in relation to his justice, his judgment, his power, his life, his glory, his excellence, his goodness, his mercy, and the fulness of every gift, of every trait, of every principle inherent in the character of the Supreme Being, and it is not equal in magnitude, in my reflections, to that which God revealed to Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon.[46] Edited June 5, 2022 by Calm
Calm Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) https://rationalfaiths.com/an-argument-for-mormon-universalism/ Quote ETERNITY IS A REALLY, REALLY, REALLY LONG TIME The second key idea supporting Mormon Universalism is inspired by Steven Peck’s thought-provoking novel “A Short Stay in Hell.” This book illustrates how absurdly and infinitely long “eternity” is. (A review is available here). Given the incomprehensibly infinite duration of eternity, one could ask who in the world would choose forever to permanently decline the standing and open invitation back into God’s presence (see discussion of the Piano Model above). Some may decline the invitation for years. But millions of years? Eons? Forever? Who would realistically never choose to accept the invitation? Who would never get around to making the choices that would lead them to feel comfortable in God’s presence, if nothing else than out of sheer boredom at having done everything else there possibly is to do in the Universe a trillion times over? From a literal Mormon theological perspective, this of course requires the existence of “progression from kingdom to kingdom.” Someone initially more comfortable in the Telestial Kingdom, for instance, would need to be able to move up to the Celestial Kingdom when he or she feels comfortable accepting the invitation to do so.[3] Bruce R. McConkie emphatically stated in 1980 that such a possibility does not exist, labeling such a view a “heresy.” This stands in stark contrast, however, to the plethora of teachings by other prophets and General Authorities that support (to one degree or another) the idea of eternal progression between the eternal Kingdoms (see here and here, e.g.). Importantly, a 1952 letter from the First Presidency states that there is no “definitive” stance by the Church on this doctrinal question. Given the absence of an authoritative definitive stance and the weight of prophetic statements weighing heavily in favor of the availability of eternal progression between the Kingdoms, it stands to reason that Mormon theology strongly supports this possibility. https://www.trevorprice.net/2011/12/03/terryl-givens-on-mormon-universalism/ Looks Iike a number of people take a strong interest in this topic http://near-universal-salvation.blogspot.com/2015/09/10-key-concepts-of-near-universal.html Edited June 5, 2022 by Calm
Calm Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) Is this kind of what you are looking for, Mark? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng Quote Our sins, though they may be as scarlet, can become white as snow.15 Because our beloved Savior “gave himself a ransom for all,”16 an entrance into His everlasting kingdom is provided unto us.17 The gate is unlocked! Edited June 5, 2022 by Calm
mfbukowski Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Calm said: Is this kind of what you are looking for, Mark? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2015/04/the-gift-of-grace?lang=eng Calm, that is exactly the sort of thing I was looking for, and I think that all your wonderful work clearly demonstrates and justifies the belief in LDS virtual universalism. THANK YOU SO MUCH! And those sites you found are a gold mine in themselves! Thank you thank you! 1
mfbukowski Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 @Navidad @Teancum https://www.trevorprice.net/2011/12/03/terryl-givens-on-mormon-universalism/ Quote Terryl Givens: Here’s the other remarkable thing about Mormonism, and it saddens me that Mormons haven’t caught hold of the power and the beauty of this aspect of their theology. You know, Mormons, ironically (this is just perversely ironic), Mormons are criticized for being exclusionist, right? We shut down the temple to all except those who have recommends, and we talk [about how] you gotta be a Mormon… No! Mormons are the most inclusivist theological system that exists in the Christian world, separate and apart from Universalist Unitarians themselves. In Joseph’s Smith’s vision, everybody is going to be saved, except that handful who absolutely refuse to accept the conditions of their salvation. And it strikes me that this is the greatest selling point, so-to-speak, of Mormonism, is a God who says, as we’re told [in] D&C 88, that beautiful verse where we’re told that everybody will receive that which they are willing to receive. So, you know, all the universalists in Joseph’s day were writing about this. They were saying, “Yeah, it just doesn’t make sense that God would condemn you if you’re not baptized, or you were born a pagan.” But they didn’t know how to reconcile the need for a Savior with that desire to universalize salvation, and Joseph comes along and reveals this whole plan of vicarious salvation, work for the dead, teaching the Gospel in the Spirit World. I mean, God is not only the most compassionate, but He’s the most generous and inclusive God of any creedal system. It’s just marvelous to me. 3
Navidad Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/4/2022 at 11:14 AM, mfbukowski said: YES! This is all doctrinal stuff. The belief is that there are missionaries preaching and teaching those who have not heard the gospel for their progression. Absolutely doctrinal! And being dead they clearly see at the very LEAST that there is life after death! And all will be resurrected, so they will know that, and remember there are more than one resurrection, if you are not ready for the first one. You will see this happening! Resurrection is an ORDINANCE and happens individually, that it IS an ordinance we know because it has been described as the ordinance no one yet knows how to do, except Christ of course. And that is what is meant by EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW because it will be obvious that Jesus is the Christ, and these are HIS teachings, not little old Joe Smith with his human checkered past. Very interesting stuff. Where can I read about resurrection as an ordinance? I want to know more about that.
Popular Post manol Posted June 5, 2022 Popular Post Posted June 5, 2022 On 6/2/2022 at 5:37 PM, Teancum said: Honestly I do want to believe at least in something. But I have to be honest to myself as well. I do miss the certainty I once had. On the other hand exploring without such certainty is an adventure as well. Richard Feynman put it this way: “I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Here's 37 seconds of Feynman on that adventure aspect you mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XA_NVn7XnE&list=PLS8LbL7GIZiAHmR64oluOWzz1igsXU6GG 5
mfbukowski Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 2 hours ago, Navidad said: Very interesting stuff. Where can I read about resurrection as an ordinance? I want to know more about that. It's easy to google this stuff. Most of it is in reference to an "ordinance we do not yet have", and that category often tends to include things like "organizing matter" etc. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1977/04/our-great-potential?lang=eng https://emp.byui.edu/satterfieldb/quotes/Resurrection/Ordinance of the Priesthood.html http://mormonmonk.blogspot.com/2010/05/ordinance-of-jesus-christs-resurrection.html?m=1 There is a lot more where this came from
mfbukowski Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, manol said: Richard Feynman put it this way: “I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Here's 37 seconds of Feynman on that adventure aspect you mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XA_NVn7XnE&list=PLS8LbL7GIZiAHmR64oluOWzz1igsXU6GG Who would disagree? Me But even an "approximate answer" sounds like "real answer" exists beyond it. There may be a better paradigm/theory, but they are still made up by humans or Exalted Humans. All we can know has to be understandable by humans, or... we won't understand it because human language will not let us say it We will never know how to say What It's Like To Be Bat https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F#:~:text="What Is It Like to,Nagel's Mortal Questions (1979). Edited June 5, 2022 by mfbukowski
Teancum Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: @Navidad @Teancum https://www.trevorprice.net/2011/12/03/terryl-givens-on-mormon-universalism/ I agree that LDS theology is fairly encompassing. More so than orthodox christianity. And it does border on universalism. My point simply is that one MUST receive LDS ordinances to be with the Father. For @Navidad if he is not with the Father that is a form of spiritual death to him. Maybe most everyone will accept these ordinances in the next life but I do not know that that is doctrinal.
mfbukowski Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Teancum said: I agree that LDS theology is fairly encompassing. More so than orthodox christianity. And it does border on universalism. My point simply is that one MUST receive LDS ordinances to be with the Father. For @Navidad if he is not with the Father that is a form of spiritual death to him. Maybe most everyone will accept these ordinances in the next life but I do not know that that is doctrinal. Give me a definition of "doctrinal" in an LDS context. Best wishes. We rely on testimony AND the boundaries are the temple recommend questions, and your behaviors. If you are lying on the recommend questions, sooner or later there will be a diciplinary council. So essentially one can believe virtually ANYTHING that fits the parameters of the temple recommend questions. This is published by the Church itself: Approaching Mormon Doctrine https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine Quote Much misunderstanding about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints revolves around its doctrine. The news media is increasingly asking what distinguishes the Church from other faiths, and reporters like to contrast one set of beliefs with another. The Church welcomes inquisitiveness, but the challenge of understanding Mormon doctrine is not merely a matter of accessing the abundant information available. Rather, it is a matter of how this information is approached and examined. The doctrinal tenets of any religion are best understood within a broad context, and thoughtful analysis is required to understand them. News reporters pressed by daily deadlines often find that problematic. Therefore, as the Church continues to grow throughout the world and receive increasing media attention, a few simple principles that facilitate a better understanding may be helpful: Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted. Some doctrines are more important than others and might be considered core doctrines. For example, the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important than doctrine about Jesus Christ and His atoning sacrifice. The mistake that public commentators often make is taking an obscure teaching that is peripheral to the Church’s purpose and placing it at the very center. This is especially common among reporters or researchers who rely on how other Christians interpret Latter-day Saint doctrine. Based on the scriptures, Joseph Smith declared: “The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it.” Because different times present different challenges, modern-day prophets receive revelation relevant to the circumstances of their day. This follows the biblical pattern (Amos 3:7), in which God communicated messages and warnings to His people through prophets in order to secure their well-being. In our day, President Gordon B. Hinckley (1910-2008) has repeatedly emphasized the importance of the family in our increasingly fractional society. In addition, the Church does not preclude future additions or changes to its teachings or practices. This living, dynamic aspect of the Church provides flexibility in meeting those challenges. According to the Articles of Faith, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” Latter-day Saints place heavy emphasis on the application of their faith in daily life. For example, the active participation of Latter-day Saints in their community and worldwide humanitarian programs reflects concern for other people. As Jesus Christ declared, “By their fruits ye shall know them.” Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together. Those writing or commenting on Latter-day Saint doctrine also need to understand that certain words in the Mormon vocabulary have slightly different meanings and connotations than those same words have in other religions. For example, Latter-day Saints generally view being born again as a process of conversion, whereas many other Christian denominations often view it as a conversion that happens in one defining moment. Sometimes what some may consider an argument or dispute over doctrine is really a misunderstanding of simple differences in terminology. Journalists, academics and laymen alike are encouraged to pursue their inquiries into the Church by recognizing the broad and complex context within which its doctrines have been declared, in a spirit of reason and good will. Joseph himself was anti-Creed and wanted us all to follow the spirit rather than creeds. This official church statement says that doctrine is what is "consistently published". That is exactly why I asked @Calm to search that out, and I have as well and you can for yourself as well. I feel that all these dicussions available - and published, and conference talks given by prophets CERTAINLY give us leeway to see Universalism as a "doctrinal" option for us if the Spirit backs it up. And for me, it is crystal clear that this is the intent of the overall paradigm. The very notion that we have ordinances for the dead PROVES to me that the paradigm itself MUST end in Universalism without self- contradiction. If one NEVER heard the gospel, they are clearly open to exaltation. Born in China in 3200 BC? Didn't hear of Christ? ZAP- if you accept it AFTER seeing Him come in glory- you get your work done in the millenium and ZAP you are in. Been "Anti-Mormon" perhaps Baptist, in an earnest attempt to save Mormon people from burning forever because they worship the "wrong" Jesus ? (whatever that is supposed to mean) ? You have then never KNOWN the "right" Jesus !! Same category as born in China in 3200 BC in my thinking. What's the difference? You have never known the truth, according to our paradigm. So now you discover the "real Jesus" So that includes "converts" converted during the millenium, theoretically, in my way of seeing it, by what you see happening with your direct experience So in my view faith including Universalism in the paradigm makes sense, and if confirmed by the spirit, that becomes YOUR PERSONAL doctrine, which also "consistently published" and certainly not prohibited, but encouraged by the notion that we MUST receive testimonies of our beliefs. Edited June 5, 2022 by mfbukowski 1
Navidad Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 7 hours ago, mfbukowski said: @Navidad @Teancum https://www.trevorprice.net/2011/12/03/terryl-givens-on-mormon-universalism/ Thanks for this. I read it several times and enjoyed it each time. Of course we read things via our own filters. My filters zeroed in on a couple of sentences by Terryl Givens. I smiled as it reminded me of how we often respond to those from our own in-group - those who we respect, like and who are "us." Halfway through the interview, Givens, a populist LDS author says the following "I think that we as a Church are guilty of an institutional sin in the way that we have trumpeted Mormon triumphalism at the expense of the virtue and value of other religious traditions and individuals, and that's a sin for which we need to collectively repent." Can you imagine what the response would be if I started a thread with the following: "I think that the LDS Church is guilty of an institutional sin in the way it has trumpeted Mormon triumphalism at the expense of the virtue and value of other religious traditions and individuals, and that's a sin for which it needs to collectively repent?" I would be excoriated by certain folks on this forum. The apologetes would come out of the woodwork to defend, deflect, and defuse such a horrible claim. Notice please he includes other religious traditions and individuals! Remind me never to say such a thing. Somewhere else in the talk, he uses the word exclusivity. Oh my! Perish the thought if I said that! Well, I have! Ha! I smlled as I thought of this. It is so hard for us to value what the other has to say to us, especially if it runs counter to our own self-identity. As far as the topic at hand. . . several things - I do believe that spiritual death is life in the absence of God. For example as the extraction of the glory of God from the temple in Ezekiel up until the birth of Christ, the earth, Jewish and Gentile alike experienced spiritual death. Therefore, life in any kingdom without the continual presence of the Godhead for eternity is not salvation for me. It is spiritual death. If the LDS version of universalism is that virtually everyone will live forever in some wonderful place where the Godhead isn't, that is not salvation. Neither is it the gift of God with which I am familiar. (Ro 6:23). When Givens says one does not have to be a member of the Mormon church to "secure your salvation" I think he is talking about eternal life in one of the kingdoms. That isn't my salvation - the endowment with which I am sealed is eternal life with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and all my sealed compadres (as judged by Christ) forever. I can't profess belief in what I don't faith. I don't believe there will be earthly denominational distinctions in the temporary spirit world or in any heavenly kingdom. I do believe that God will have His own manner of dealing with all the billions of us in due time. That will not be solely congruent with the LDS way, but will most likely be something new to all of us - a new covenant path and iron rod with which none of us have any current knowledge. It will be centered on the singular greatest human event of all time, the atonement of Christ, not on any one church - yours or mine. I might be as surprised about how it all turns out as any of you, but I know that finally when I wake up on the other side, I will no longer be in the out group, distinct from my LDS friends! "Oh that will be, glory for me!"
Navidad Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 3 hours ago, manol said: Richard Feynman put it this way: “I'd rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” Here's 37 seconds of Feynman on that adventure aspect you mentioned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XA_NVn7XnE&list=PLS8LbL7GIZiAHmR64oluOWzz1igsXU6GG Hi @manol. I am trying to find some source that confirms that this really is a Richard Feynman quote. Might you have one? It appears this might be like so many other quotes, attributed to someone, but no evidence the person ever said it. Do you have any definitive source document? I am not challenging you. I simply can't use a quote if I have no confirmation of its source. It sure is a good one! Thanks.
mfbukowski Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Navidad said: Hi @manol. I am trying to find some source that confirms that this really is a Richard Feynman quote. Might you have one? It appears this might be like so many other quotes, attributed to someone, but no evidence the person ever said it. Do you have any definitive source document? I am not challenging you. I simply can't use a quote if I have no confirmation of its source. It sure is a good one! Thanks. I plugged in the name in google and this is what I got https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman Golly it looks just like the guy in the posted video! Wikipedia says the below photo was from 1965 Edited June 5, 2022 by mfbukowski
Navidad Posted June 5, 2022 Posted June 5, 2022 14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Give me a definition of "doctrinal" in an LDS context. Best wishes. We rely on testimony AND the boundaries are the temple recommend questions, and your behaviors. If you are lying on the recommend questions, sooner or later there will be a diciplinary council. So essentially one can believe virtually ANYTHING that fits the parameters of the temple recommend questions. This is published by the Church itself: Approaching Mormon Doctrine https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine Joseph himself was anti-Creed and wanted us all to follow the spirit rather than creeds. This official church statement says that doctrine is what is "consistently published". That is exactly why I asked @Calm to search that out, and I have as well and you can for yourself as well. I feel that all these dicussions available - and published, and conference talks given by prophets CERTAINLY give us leeway to see Universalism as a "doctrinal" option for us if the Spirit backs it up. And for me, it is crystal clear that this is the intent of the overall paradigm. The very notion that we have ordinances for the dead PROVES to me that the paradigm itself MUST end in Universalism without self- contradiction. If one NEVER heard the gospel, they are clearly open to exaltation. Born in China in 3200 BC? Didn't hear of Christ? ZAP- if you accept it AFTER seeing Him come in glory- you get your work done in the millenium and ZAP you are in. Been "Anti-Mormon" perhaps Baptist, in an earnest attempt to save Mormon people from burning forever because they worship the "wrong" Jesus ? (whatever that is supposed to mean) ? You have then never KNOWN the "right" Jesus !! Same category as born in China in 3200 BC in my thinking. What's the difference? You have never known the truth, according to our paradigm. So now you discover the "real Jesus" So that includes "converts" converted during the millenium, theoretically, in my way of seeing it, by what you see happening with your direct experience So in my view faith including Universalism in the paradigm makes sense, and if confirmed by the spirit, that becomes YOUR PERSONAL doctrine, which also "consistently published" and certainly not prohibited, but encouraged by the notion that we MUST receive testimonies of our beliefs. I think the key element of the church website from which you quoted is this: Individual members are encouraged to independently strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. Moreover, the Church exhorts all people to approach the gospel not only intellectually but with the intellect and the spirit, a process in which reason and faith work together. That encourages members to strive to receive their own spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of Church doctrine. It doesn't say anything about coming up with your own doctrine as Givens has (I have read most of his stuff) and as others on this forum sometimes do. Oh, and is being Baptist synonymous with being anti-Mormon? Or perhaps is being Mormon synonymous with being anti-Baptist? I wish neither to be true.
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