Can the Church take the gospel to the world?

[Teancum]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Membership increased but we are losing ground? I know you are using that in a specific sense but that sense doesn’t make a lot of sense. Growth has slowed perhaps but still growing.

The church membership went up by 141k.  There was 140 million births in 2021.  You tell me how you are all doing in bringing your message to the world and gaining converts.

[Teancum]

53 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Yes, he should have given Joseph Smith and the early members of the church smart phones and a computers with the internet right from the start.  I can see the disappointment on their faces as they struggle to find a place to charge their phones for the first time.

The point is God has nothing to do with technology.  Humans have learned and grown over thousands of years.  And the increase in knowledge ahs been exponential in the past couple hundred of years and is more rapid then ever now. So yo pretend God gave the internet to help the LDS Church is hogwash.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Teancum

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Teancum said:

That really makes no sense. 

Why not?

Our earthly parents tend to allow (or should) their kids to have certain fantasies about them when they can in order for the kids to feel safe in a world they are not ready to comprehend. They don’t insist their kids realize their parents could be killed or lose a job or get sick. They don’t show all their weaknesses and kind parents keep the disagreement in front of the kids to a limit…enough to teach the kids how to deal with it, but not so much the kids start worrying about getting abandoned or blaming themselves that mom and dad are fighting etc. 
 

Why wouldn’t our Heavenly Father provide much the same thing, a sense of safety, connection, stability?  And if there is a God, all that is real and not just a partial picture like with our earthly parents.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Teancum said:

Me?  Make stuff up?  That is rich.  Stay safe in your philosophical bubble.😏

Lol!

Dang right

I spent the 60's and 70's creating it, living on the streets in Venice and hitching rides to UCLA studying my tuches off to find it.  

Bubble? Yeah sure, dang right.

The Lord is my bubble, my protector, and life, thanks be to Him for all I have, that I hope someday you will learn.  I would not still be alive, were it not for  Him.

"By day and by night He leads me along"

Sorry, I see myself in you,  and cannot help but to make it personal

Edited April 9, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

I wonder if "the church" is willing to accept an assist from all the thousands of wonderful Godly non-LDS Christian missionaries out there serving God in the mission field? This is especially true if we agree that the primary purpose of missionary work is to lead people to Christ. Leading those who have never heard to Christ is the goal of mission work, is it not?

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Leading those who have never heard to Christ is the goal of mission work, is it not?

In one sense, yes of course.  BUT this is a way of seeing the world which would typically never occurr to a member of the Church of JCLDS.

In another sense, "Nope".   

First of all, we believe it is inevitable that all will hear of Christ, and learn to know Him, if not in this world, then in the next.   So missionary work continues on the "other side" which of course does not replace the need for it in this world-  it just gives us assurance to know that it WILL happen, regardless.   Members really have that in their minds, and it is a VERY comforting way of seeing the Plan of Salvation when someone brings it up.

To reach exaltation, on the other hand, we need to actually learn certain way of seeing God and accept it, and that is taught in the temple.   So as far as the eternal welfare of the spirit is concerned- yes of course it is somewhat important that a person learn of Christ during this mortal probation.   On the other hand, if we are not "saved" here, it's not CRUCIAL to our salvation from sin and death that it happens in this life.

I think (my opinion) that we tend to stress more OUR responsibility as missionaries to preach the gospel for OUR sake as servents of the Lord- it is one of our responsibilities- than it is for us to actually receive the message here in this life.

So yes, I think it is MORE important that WE TRY to convert others than it is that those we might convert actually accept the gospel.

Either way, they WILL accept it eventually, but we are COMMANDED to do our best to convert others here in this life.

[strappinglad]

Reminds me of this 

To dream the impossible dream. To fight the unbeatable foe. To bear the unbearable sorrow. To run where the brave dare not go. To right the un-rightable wrong. To be better far than you are. To try when your arms are too weary. To reach the unreachable star. This is my quest, to follow that star.

[Navidad]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think (my opinion) that we tend to stress more OUR responsibility as missionaries to preach the gospel for OUR sake as servents of the Lord- it is one of our responsibilities- than it is for us to actually receive the message here in this life.

So yes, I think it is MORE important that WE TRY to convert others than it is that those we might convert actually accept the gospel.

Either way, they WILL accept it eventually, but we are COMMANDED to do our best to convert others here in this life.

Questions - You know me! Always a couple of questions:

1. You use the word "convert" a number of times in your reply. If I were "converted" in this life, what would I be converting from and to what would I be converting? Mennonite to Saint is a migration, not a conversion.
2. Do you believe all Christian groups will be represented in the spirit world by their various missionaries and agents, or only members of the COJCOLDS and everyone else? After you die, you will carry over your identity as a member of the COJCOLDS into the spirit world. Will I carry over my Mennonite identity? Will Christ and the angels recognize and validate the uniqueness of Saints in the spirit world? Will the Book of Mormon and the Bible carry over into the spirit world? Just the BOM? I have never read how this post-mortal spirit world missionary work is going to happen. Will those who hear "the gospel" in the spirit world accept Christ's atonement for sin because of a continuation of sin in that world? What would someone in the spirit world be converting from and to? Same basic question as in 1.

You bring up so many completely foreign concepts to me. I am willing to consider, but I need to understand. As I have said 100 times, my certainty is provisional until I am on the other side. I have never read anything from the LDS perspective about HOW it is going to work over there. I just read that it will work. To what degree do you believe our present spiritual realities will carry over to a postmortal life? Thanks.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Questions - You know me! Always a couple of questions:

1. You use the word "convert" a number of times in your reply. If I were "converted" in this life, what would I be converting from and to what would I be converting? Mennonite to Saint is a migration, not a conversion.
2. Do you believe all Christian groups will be represented in the spirit world by their various missionaries and agents, or only members of the COJCOLDS and everyone else? After you die, you will carry over your identity as a member of the COJCOLDS into the spirit world. Will I carry over my Mennonite identity? Will Christ and the angels recognize and validate the uniqueness of Saints in the spirit world? Will the Book of Mormon and the Bible carry over into the spirit world? Just the BOM? I have never read how this post-mortal spirit world missionary work is going to happen. Will those who hear "the gospel" in the spirit world accept Christ's atonement for sin because of a continuation of sin in that world? What would someone in the spirit world be converting from and to? Same basic question as in 1.

You bring up so many completely foreign concepts to me. I am willing to consider, but I need to understand. As I have said 100 times, my certainty is provisional until I am on the other side. I have never read anything from the LDS perspective about HOW it is going to work over there. I just read that it will work. To what degree do you believe our present spiritual realities will carry over to a postmortal life? Thanks.

Since we are fundamentally spirits, I don't know what else we can carry over into the spirit world but 100% of what we have identified as reality -- in other words, what we have accumulated and become as spirits in this life. Of course, a new setting might offer an opportunity for reassessment or a new perceptive, the same as in this life.

I think a spirit's identity involves a wide array of characteristics, but in this case, conversion from one identity to Christ’s ideal would begin with the quality of being baptized by proper authority, first by water and then as long as it takes by fire. In this sense, the afterlife in the spirit world is much like this one until a person’s “last day” or “day of judgement,” when they can no longer mistake the ideal and the means to obtain it.

Edited April 11, 2022 by CV75

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, Navidad said:

Questions - You know me! Always a couple of questions:

1. You use the word "convert" a number of times in your reply. If I were "converted" in this life, what would I be converting from and to what would I be converting? Mennonite to Saint is a migration, not a conversion.
2. Do you believe all Christian groups will be represented in the spirit world by their various missionaries and agents, or only members of the COJCOLDS and everyone else?

You bring up so many completely foreign concepts to me. I am willing to consider, but I need to understand. As I have said 100 times, my certainty is provisional until I am on the other side. I have never read anything from the LDS perspective about HOW it is going to work over there. I just read that it will work. To what degree do you believe our present spiritual realities will carry over to a postmortal life? Thanks.

OK, We're off. and running.

Now remember all I write is based on MY UNDERSTANDING of how I see it works.   Some may agree, some may disagree, but I have been studying this stuff now for 43 years or so, with my philosophy stuff assisting or harming my understanding it all.   I have a temple recommend and have been a temple worker for at least 15 years off and on due to other callings.  I have never been corrected by any authority on my views.

1.  You would be "converting", after being baptized as a member to one who can stand before God and accept a temple recommend interview before God affirming the doctrine and beliefs and behaviors of a Latter Day Saint.  You would be converting to temple worship, and accepting the covenants made their and indicating that you believe and have a personal testimony of the doctrine contained in the temple recommend interview questions, accepting the prophet AS a prophet, and accepting all the Standard Works AS scripture- making them as "valid" as the bible as scriptural sources in your life.  It's easy to look up the questions-  I don't need to do that for you.

And- there are more than 2 questions there, so I will just proceed in attempting to get to all of them

Quote

2. After you die, you will carry over your identity as a member of the COJCOLDS into the spirit world. Will I carry over my Mennonite identity? 

 2.  Of course you have your own testimony.  That would be up to you, I guess.  You would now be a member of the COJCLDS, but you cannot nor are you expected to relinquish your "identity" whatever that means!?  You would be changing your faith.   You would not be a "Mennonite" any longer, though of course what you believe as true should not be abandoned if your beliefs are more rigorous than ours regarding dancing etc.  Example: we are to eat meat sparingly- if you are or want to be a vegetarian, for you, that might be even "more rigorous" than our standards and of course you could keept that belief.
 

Quote

 

3. Will Christ and the angels recognize and validate the uniqueness of Saints in the spirit world? Will the Book of Mormon and the Bible carry over into the spirit world?

 

Yes of course on both.   We believe that ALL will eventually accept "bend the knee" and accept the Covenant Path.   Why would you NOT join what you will see as the "Best Path" to the highest possible reward?  IF you have spent your life EMULATING Christ- how far would you like to emulate him?   IF you could be JUST LIKE CHRIST would you want that?  Personally I would.   I want to be as good and do as good as I am capable of.

Just the BOM? I have never read how this post-mortal spirit world missionary work is going to happen.

Quote

Will those who hear "the gospel" in the spirit world accept Christ's atonement for sin because of a continuation of sin in that world? What would someone in the spirit world be converting from and to? Same basic question as in 1.

Continuation of sin?  No of course not.

They will accept the covenant path because they see it PLAINLY that it is THE true path to becoming the most righteous being one can become and help others as the LORD has helped us become as we are.

It is essentially like Christian missionary work but INFINITELY ABOVE what Christian missionaries could possibly imagine.

Even the lowest kingdoms are what most Christians would call "heaven".

And you will see that on the other side, plain as seeing the Sun.  Why would anyone NOT want that??

I really want to help, not argue with you ever again
 

Edited April 11, 2022 by mfbukowski
I was unkind, unwittingly

[Navidad]

On 4/10/2022 at 9:00 PM, mfbukowski said:

OK, We're off. and running.

Now remember all I write is based on MY UNDERSTANDING of how I see it works.   Some may agree, some may disagree, but I have been studying this stuff now for 43 years or so, with my philosophy stuff assisting or harming my understanding it all.   I have a temple recommend and have been a temple worker for at least 15 years off and on due to other callings.  I have never been corrected by any authority on my views.

1.  You would be "converting", after being baptized as a member to one who can stand before God and accept a temple recommend interview before God affirming the doctrine and beliefs and behaviors of a Latter Day Saint.  You would be converting to temple worship, and accepting the covenants made their and indicating that you believe and have a personal testimony of the doctrine contained in the temple recommend interview questions, accepting the prophet AS a prophet, and accepting all the Standard Works AS scripture- making them as "valid" as the bible as scriptural sources in your life.  It's easy to look up the questions-  I don't need to do that for you.

And- there are more than 2 questions there, so I will just proceed in attempting to get to all of them

 2.  Of course you have your own testimony.  That would be up to you, I guess.  You would now be a member of the COJCLDS, but you cannot nor are you expected to relinquish your "identity" whatever that means!?  You would be changing your faith.   You would not be a "Mennonite" any longer, though of course what you believe as true should not be abandoned if your beliefs are more rigorous than ours regarding dancing etc.  Example: we are to eat meat sparingly- if you are or want to be a vegetarian, for you, that might be even "more rigorous" than our standards and of course you could keept that belief.
 

Yes of course on both.   We believe that ALL will eventually accept "bend the knee" and accept the Covenant Path.   Why would you NOT join what you will see as the "Best Path" to the highest possible reward?  IF you have spent your life EMULATING Christ- how far would you like to emulate him?   IF you could be JUST LIKE CHRIST would you want that?  Personally I would.   I want to be as good and do as good as I am capable of.

Just the BOM? I have never read how this post-mortal spirit world missionary work is going to happen.

Continuation of sin?  No of course not.

They will accept the covenant path because they see it PLAINLY that it is THE true path to becoming the most righteous being one can become and help others as the LORD has helped us become as we are.

It is essentially like Christian missionary work but INFINITELY ABOVE what Christian missionaries could possibly imagine.

Even the lowest kingdoms are what most Christians would call "heaven".

And you will see that on the other side, plain as seeing the Sun.  Why would anyone NOT want that??

I really want to help, not argue with you ever again
 

Thanks Mark. My favorite part of your reply is never to argue again. I have consistently understood that D&C teaches that God the Father and Christ will dwell in the celestial kingdom. Christ may visit the next and the Holy Spirit the third. Angels go back and forth. I can't imagine heaven being heaven without God's constant presence. The presence of God is what makes heaven . . . well, it makes heaven heaven! Thanks for your kind and helpful reply.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Navidad

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks Mark. My favorite part of your reply is never to argue again. I have consistently understood that D&C teaches that God the Father and Christ will dwell in the celestial kingdom. Christ may visit the next and the Holy Spirit the third. Angels go back and forth. I can't imagine heaven being heaven without God's constant presence. The presence of God is what makes heaven . . . well, it makes heaven heaven! Thanks for your kind and helpful reply.

Ideas like "presence" only apply when we are earthlings. God's got The Super Cosmo-Zoom, aka The Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ.

It's this super app that works on the Infinity Net Internet, but no hackers.  > just kidding

His intelligence permeates all time and space, so He can know "everything" and be "everywhere"    ( earthly human constructs) while hanging out on a beach on Kolob >also just kidding 

But seriously it's cool that we now have an analogy to give us a tiny inkling of what that might be like, to "be" in multiple places at once while being right where you are the whole time.

Anyway. don't get hung up on the mechanics ! It's not like rooms you walk in and out of, or miss Dad when he goes to work!

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

36 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Ideas like "presence" only apply when we are earthlings. God's got The Super Cosmo-Zoom, aka The Holy Ghost and the Light of Christ.

It's this super app that works on the Infinity Net Internet, but no hackers.  > just kidding

His intelligence permeates all time and space, so He can know "everything" and be "everywhere"    ( earthly human constructs) while hanging out on a beach on Kolob >also just kidding 

But seriously it's cool that we now have an analogy to give us a tiny inkling of what that might be like, to "be" in multiple places at once while being right where you are the whole time.

Anyway. don't get hung up on the mechanics ! It's not like rooms you walk in and out of, or miss Dad when he goes to work!

 

You and I have a lot in common. First and foremost it seems that the two of us never sleep!

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

You and I have a lot in common. First and foremost it seems that the two of us never sleep!

Yeah, that's only for mortals.

 

[SwedishLDS]

we have been promised it will, so it will. When Christ is asked by John the baptists followers in Matthew 11, he lists his miracles, among which is having the gospel preached to them. So having the gospel preached to you is a miracle and we know God is mighty to work miracles

“3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.”

the “gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world” (Matthew 24:14)

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:18–19).

Edited April 13, 2022 by SwedishLDS

[The Nehor]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:40 PM, strappinglad said:

Reminds me of this 

To dream the impossible dream. To fight the unbeatable foe. To bear the unbearable sorrow. To run where the brave dare not go. To right the un-rightable wrong. To be better far than you are. To try when your arms are too weary. To reach the unreachable star. This is my quest, to follow that star.

I would have more respect for the guy if he would revise his stance on wind power.

[pogi]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:49 PM, Navidad said:

1. You use the word "convert" a number of times in your reply. If I were "converted" in this life, what would I be converting from and to what would I be converting? Mennonite to Saint is a migration, not a conversion.

We are not a branch of the "Christian Church".  I think a lot of the disconnect arises from this idea that we share a common communion around the idea of "Church" with the larger Christian community.  Understanding two critical core beliefs we hold should help understand our framework - 1) the apostacy, 2) the restoration.  The conversion, from our perspective, would be from one to the other.  We may be a part of a larger Christian community, but we are not a part of a larger Christian church.  We are not a different branch that one can migrate to.  We are a totally different tree.  It is a migration in terms of community, but it is a conversion in terms of Church. 

If you did eventually come to believe in the apostacy and restoration, do you see how conversion would be the appropriate word to use?

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by pogi